Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast. Excited for today’s guest. She’s the founder and executive director of the Association of Ghost Writers and as well the president of of her own, uh, business book, ghost Writing Firm. So I’m excited to be rocking out today with Marcia Layton Turner.

Hey, Marcia, are you ready to rock?

Marcia Layton Turner: Let’s rock.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. So we always start off here in a good note. Tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

Marcia Layton Turner: Well, I, I think I have two to share. One, one from early days. Um. So growing up, going through high school and into college, I, I never really thought of myself as a writer. Could never have conceived that I would eventually become a writer. Uh, my dad was a fine artist, so when other future novelists were writing stories and stuff, I, I was painting pictures. I was making the dr the illustrations for those books and, um. Went to a, a demanding high [00:01:00] school. So I was definitely like, just a little bit above average, but then I went away to college and at my college you had the option to either take an exam at the end of the semester or write a paper. I like to be in control of how much time I spend on things, and so I always took the paper option. So over the course of I, I graduated early, so three and a half years of writing papers for lots of classes. I sort of figured it out, but I didn’t really know that until I went out to the University of Michigan to get my MBA and we’re writing papers and they’re easy, and I’m getting A’s, and I distinctly remember thinking, wow, I figured it out. I got it. Okay, this is good. And so I went on to, uh, actually join the marketing communications department at Kodak. Rose quickly through the ranks, became, uh, director of one of their B2B divisions, then [00:02:00] left to run my own marketing company, and that eventually evolved into what I do now, which is business book Ghost Writing and running the Association of Ghost Writers. But I, I think the lesson that I really want your listeners to hear is that you can learn new skills in adulthood. Just because you didn’t learn it when you were in elementary school or middle school or even high school, you can still learn and get better and obtain new skills maybe that you never thought you could have, because I, I really never would’ve thought that I would become a writer.

But through the years I’ve really worked at it. And so I encourage people if there’s something that you’ve always like wished you could do. You can do it, it just needs, you just need to spend some time working on those skills. You know, I took online classes and read lots of books and went to conferences and things like that. Um, so, so it is possible, and it’s the skill now that my business is based on. [00:03:00] So, so that’s, that’s the first one. But, but then the second story, which I think is really relevant for everybody, and I keep threatening to write a book about it, is the power of asking questions. And I think this is so important for newer home-based business owners, is not to be afraid to ask questions. Um. And the, the best story that I can think of to illustrate this is back when I was starting my home-based business and I was doing marketing. I was primarily serving startup entrepreneurs, so I was helping them with marketing plans and business plans, and really just understanding how to get started. And I had heard, or I think I saw an ad in Entrepreneur Magazine for this series of conferences that they were running nationwide. I remember there was San Francisco, la, Miami, and New York major ones, and I thought, wow, that, that looks like a really good conference, but. When you’re in startup [00:04:00] mode, you don’t have a lot of money and

so I, I really wanted to be sure this was gonna be worth my time, but there wasn’t an agenda.

It was just come to this all day event, or actually it was three days, so I. Emailed the organizer and said, Hey, do you have an agenda for this? Can you tell me what the sessions are? Who’s speaking? And she said, oh, we’re still working on that. I said, oh, well, what’s, what’s the process to be considered as a speaker? And she said, well, what do you, what do you wanna talk about? And I thought, oh, this isn’t set in stone yet. And so, um, I said, well, I help people write business plans. I’d love to teach, you know, your attendees. And she said, well, send me a proposal. Which I did ultimately, as you can guess, she said, Hey, well sure you wanna come, you wanna come speak. So I just by asking questions about how does this work, what’s the process? Can I be considered? I was in front of the room in front of eight, I think [00:05:00] 800, 700 people at the Meadowlands, I don’t know what it’s called now, outside New York City for three days. Positioning myself as the expert in business plan writing.

And that was very early in my career. Again, just because I bother to ask questions about like, how does that work? So I would encourage people, I think you really can get so far just by asking

Yeah, what, what’s, and, and especially if they say no, asking, like, well, tell me more about that.

Why? Why is that a no, I don’t get it.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It doesn’t hurt to ask that extra question, right? Because you might end up getting some insight or you might even find a different angle to go at it next time, right?

Marcia Layton Turner: Exactly. You get feedback. It’s, I always encourage people, like in the Association of Ghost Writers, if you don’t get a project, ask Why.

What? What was it where? Where did you think I was weak? What did the other person have that I didn’t have? One time I discovered that I didn’t ask enough questions. Hey. That’s [00:06:00] great intel. Now I come with like pages and pages of questions, so yeah, just ask.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. It’s funny when you said about how, you know, you can learn new skills later in age, I think. ’cause I mean, you have that people that say you can’t teach old dogs new tricks. Is that what they say? Right.

Um, now I, I think it’s because I, I remember when I, when I first started looking at becoming self-employed and.

You end up getting just thrust into this whole area of having to learn all these new things and read all these books. And someone had said something like, you know, most people don’t read another book after they graduate high school. And I thought to myself that, you know, that’s a good point. You know, maybe it’s not that they can’t learn new, new things.

Maybe it’s that it takes some time to relearn how to learn. Does that make sense?

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah, or maybe they didn’t know how to learn in the first place.

Tim Melanson: And that’s true too. Yeah, exactly. Because I mean, a lot of, well, [00:07:00] especially now, most schools just push you through, right?

I mean, it’s not like it used to be where you actually failed. Right Now

you can’t fail anymore, so it’s

possible you could get all the way through school and not even know how to learn, right?

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah. And, and reading comprehension is at least to me, a critical

skill, not just reading and, um, you know. Being able to regurgitate information, but really process it and wonder, okay, so what does that mean for me? What does that mean for my business? What can I take away from that? And I, I think too few people have that skill.

Tim Melanson: Yeah,

I agree. And it’s too bad. But I mean, the, the, the good news, I think anyway is that I was far more. Interested in the topics that I was learning right when it came to business than I was in the things that were thrust upon me in school. And so I’m, I’m guessing that probably everybody’s like that.

You know, once you get out, you, maybe you, you have this negative opinion of learning because you were learning things [00:08:00] you didn’t wanna learn, but now you can learn anything you want, right? And make it something that you love. Right.

Marcia Layton Turner: Well, and I think even going. Back to school. In college when you had the choice between taking all those required courses and then you got to take the courses in your major. I

think inevitably for most people, their GPA went way up.

’cause as you said, you’re studying stuff that you’re interested in, you’re curious about it.

You’re paying attention.

Yeah.

you’re gonna do better.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, that’s exactly it. I remember when I was taking, I never had an option between an, an exam and a paper. It was always a paper and a speech for us, and I always chose the speech, but I mean, I was, it was very few, there was very few of us that chose the speech.

Most people wrote, chose the paper and I thought that was a lot of work for me.

Right. The speech was. I thought easier, but I mean, I guess every, it depends on people, right?

Marcia Layton Turner: Uh, speech was probably shorter, and for [00:09:00] you, probably easier because I think you’ve probably always been very comfortable talking to people and

getting in front of the, of the room. But for those of us who are introverts mm-hmm. Oh, I would’ve taken the paper.

Tim Melanson: You would’ve taken the paper, of course you would’ve.

Marcia Layton Turner: I just slide it into the professors, you know, not having to get up in front of anybody. Yeah, that would’ve been my choice.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, most people did. And, uh, but yeah, the, just being able to, to, to get in front of people, like, it’s, it’s, um, I don’t know. I mean, I, I’d be interested to know which was graded. More, uh,

fairly, I guess. ’cause I think that just getting in front of a class, I think that that is just generally known as something that’s scary.

And so you might even be able to get away with a little bit of extra mistakes because you’re the one that got in front of the class and did that, whereas the paper probably was a little bit more strict. Right.

Marcia Layton Turner: I bet the professor was in a better mood sitting back in the class watching you speak and then giving you a grade [00:10:00] rather than having to read like a 10 page paper times however many people in the were in the class. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm. But both of those, I mean, both of those would’ve been useful. ’cause I mean, hey, the people that wrote the paper would’ve been, you know, in your area and maybe they might end up being writers, right.

Marcia Layton Turner: May maybe. Maybe. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: So now not everything goes as planned. Sometimes there’s some mistakes that we make along the way, and I’m wondering, can you share with me something that didn’t go as planned and how you recovered from that?

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know that, um, what I’m gonna call like a recent failure was necessarily due to lack of planning. But I’ve, I’ve had time to think about this. So my ghostwriting business, which I started. Early two thousands, let’s say. I don’t know the exact year when I really moved into that, but my revenue has grown steadily into the, you know, multi-six figures.

And it was just booming through COVID, booming. ’cause everybody was [00:11:00] home and wanted to write their books. Right. And then. End of 2023, things started to slow down. Like I didn’t really have projects that were on my books for 2024, and I, I thought, well, you know, it’s just seasonality.

Um, not gonna worry about, I’m just gonna enjoy the holidays.

Well then 2024 comes in and it doesn’t pick up. I had a couple of projects, book projects that, um, the authors ended up. Not wanting to finish for whatever reason. So 2024 was quite the anomaly, but I was really nervous that this was not an anomaly. And this

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Marcia Layton Turner: the way things now were

my new normal. And, uh, it, it was a really scary time. I had, I had never had a year like that. And so. I think ghost writers face this regularly. You never know like, where’s my next project coming from? Or freelance writers in general, am I gonna get another project? You start to [00:12:00] wonder, and it took several months, but about middle of 2024, I realized, okay, this is not turning around. This is not really, um, my fault, but I gotta do something different.

And so. You know, they had this saying, which I kept repeating in my head, um, definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different

results. And I thought, I, okay, I’ve gotta do something different because I haven’t done anything different and nothing is changing.

So I overhauled my marketing. I started blogging much more consistently to get my website ranked higher in Google. I hired a LinkedIn consultant to help improve my LinkedIn profile and then also do some regular LinkedIn outreach. Um, I would. Pursuing more podcast opportunities, speaking opportunities. I created a lead magnet about the value of a book and how it can help authors get more opportunities. [00:13:00] So I really just started to introduce all these new things that I hadn’t been doing, and within a couple months I had a new project. So that was the end of 2024 and going into 2025, things started to happen. I can’t point to any one thing that I necessarily did right. But I, I think maybe the momentum of just

doing so many things to get my name out there to explain to people what the heck ghost writing is, how it works. Um, it started to bear fruit. And so by 2025, even like second quarter of 2025, I was busy and I was booked throughout the year. Started off 2026. Already multiple six figures booked. Like things things are back on track. But that was a really scary time and I think maybe the takeaway for your listeners is if you get to that point where nothing is happening, you, you just have to try something new.

And I might even encourage you to check out AI [00:14:00] for those kinds of discussions of like, here’s what I’m doing. Based on my business. What do you recommend? And sometimes it’s really interesting to see what recommendations come through.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree. I use AI quite a bit for that ki kind of brainstorming. ’cause

it is nice to, sometimes you just, you flesh out these ideas by talking to somebody. And now you don’t have to take someone’s time.

Now you could take the AI’s time, right, and just work through it. And sometimes you get some pretty good ideas.

Sometimes you get garbage though,

you know, just to put that out there, right?

Marcia Layton Turner: Agreed, and I’ve tried different platforms to see what kind of information they’re going to recommend because they pull from

different sources. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

But, uh, but I think that like, so every business is different and some businesses get off to a really great start and then slow down. Sometimes you get, have a really difficult time getting started and then it takes time, time to build up. I think actually the, the first [00:15:00] one is a little bit harder because if you, if you’re having a hard time getting started.

Then great. I mean, you’re learning all the things you need to do to get that momentum going, but if things go really, really well at first, ’cause maybe you have a really great network or you know, whatever it is, and then it drops. Like

that’s the situation you’re in. That is very difficult. ’cause you don’t even know, like,

it’s like I gotta start from like scratch now and I don’t even know what that feels like.

Right.

Marcia Layton Turner: Right. It’s what happened and what do I do about it? And I at the time had some inklings of what was going on, but I really just had to figure out, okay, what’s the workaround?

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because there is something there, there is something. And, and it’s good. I mean, I, I think that, uh, the faster you recognize that you gotta start to do

something a little bit different, the better. Uh, but on the other hand, like it’s one of those things where it’s always been working. So you sort of had this idea of like, well, maybe it’ll just come back.

Right. [00:16:00]

And how long you’ll hold onto that, right?

Marcia Layton Turner: Exactly. And also you need to consider what is, what is enough time.

’cause ’cause there is, um, the argument to be made that you could pivot too quickly,

Tim Melanson: yeah,

Marcia Layton Turner: You have a couple weeks where business isn’t where it used to be and you think, oh my gosh, I’ve gotta start over and you know, revamp my website and do all these other things, when actually it was like the holidays and that’s just how things are.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think so. I think that if probably the most dangerous one would be that you have work on your docket, whatever it is. That you’re working through, but no new work is coming in. That’s probably the most dangerous, right? Because if you, if you lost everything and you had no clients to work on, well then now it’s like, what am I gonna do when I get up?

I, I might as well do something. Right. So that, that makes sense. But if you have work to do, [00:17:00] but you got no work new coming in, it might be by the time you end that, that project, now you’re like, okay, now I have to start all over again. Whereas if you had sort of like, just. Carved out whatever it is, you know, 10% of your time or whatever it happens to be, just to this, the new marketing activities and recognizing that, well, I haven’t gotten a new, like, I don’t have anybody in the pipe right now.

Uh uh, that’s, that’s a problem, right? Like

so.

Marcia Layton Turner: You, you have hit on exactly sort of the definition of why feast or famine happens in freelance writing in general.

It’s exactly that, that you have business that is filling your time and you feel like you have so much work that you don’t have time to market. And you’ll get to that once you’re done with this assignment.

And so you keep your head down, you’re working, you’re doing great things, but then when you lift your head up and you realize. Oh, I don’t have anything. Then you’re starting from scratch and that’s when you know you get these dips, so you have nothing. So you put a hundred percent of your time in marketing and [00:18:00] things start to come in, and then you get fully booked again.

And so you stop the marketing and like, it’s not, it’s not an efficient or effective way to be. You need to always be marketing, to your point.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and I, and I, I mean, I, I don’t think it’s just ghost, right? I think that’s, everybody

kind of ends up in that situation, especially when you’re a solopreneur or when you’re got a very small team because you’ve only got so many hours in the day and

it’s like. If you’ve got all this work on your plate, you might as well, like, you just think, well, I

just gotta get that work done.

But there is something to be said for just going, no, no, no. Spread that out a little bit. Make sure you have that, that small little snippet of stuff that you’re doing that continues to bring in more business. Right.

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah, it’s, can I take, okay, is this thing due today by five or is it due in two days by five? Well, if it’s due in two days, you don’t actually have to finish it today. Take some of that time and spend it on LinkedIn, commenting on people’s posts. Or working in a blog post or pursuing podcasts and [00:19:00] then like, finish it tomorrow.

You’re still ahead of the game. But don’t, I think sometimes people make, um, sort of makeup deadlines

and, um, that’s not always, it’s great to be finished early. Clients will love you, but if you just keep only doing the work and not doing the marketing, it’s, it’s not gonna build a sustainable business.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, and, and that kind of hits on another issue with getting done early too, is that now the expectation from the client. ’cause clients will always push for as much as they can get. Right.

And if you jump too fast. That’s great. I mean, if you’ve got nothing going on, then great. You can jump fast. But what that kind of sets you up for is in a few weeks when you have a bunch of clients you’re working on, and now every one of them thinks that you’re gonna jump on that task as fast as you did the last time, now you’re in trouble.

Right.

Marcia Layton Turner: Yep. E. Exactly right. And that actually happened to me early on in my career. I developed a reputation [00:20:00] among publishers as being a really fast writer. And I am, but exactly as you described, I. Was given all the, um, emergencies here, Marshall handle it, you know, send it to Marshall. She can get that done. And while I was thrilled to get all the work, it was, after a while, you should just get burned out

because I never actually pushed back and said, well, do you need it in a week?

Or can we have two? And so over time, I’ve gotten better at setting boundaries and resetting expectations when they come and say, yeah, I, I need a book by, you know, like February 1st, April 1st. No, let’s be reasonable.

Tim Melanson: You know, what I’ve been doing lately, uh, and is, uh, making use of the, of the schedule of an email, like that schedule thing that you can do with Google.

Because sometimes like, I mean, I, I like, sometimes I just like get in work mode at nighttime, for example. Right. And

it’s off hours. I should not be working there.

I should not be sending emails at that time because [00:21:00] then people are gonna expect you to be working at eight

o’clock in the evening. Right. Or whatever it is. So what I’ll do then is I’ll do the work, I’ll get everything all ready to go, and then I’ll set it to schedule to send it tomorrow or the next day, and then it’s, it’s off my plate.

I’m not thinking about it anymore. But now it gets sent in a timeframe That makes more sense for your business, right.

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah. Yeah.

When people would expect to be receiving emails from you. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Right. Yeah. I mean, there’s always ways to do it. ’cause I mean, you also don’t wanna, like, it’s a balance, right? I mean, if, if you’ve got like inspiration and you wanna be, especially in your area when you wanna be writing, well, it is not just like, well, I shouldn’t be writing right now, so I’m just not gonna write.

You can write it and get it done and then just set it to be sent out in a few days. Right?

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah, with, with writing, especially, I think when you, you get into the flow,

you know, you’re, you’re writing and it’s going quickly, you don’t really wanna stop. So it’s best to just go with it. And so I’ll do that when I’m working on something [00:22:00] that’s due like later in the week, I’ll try and get a draft done, so I’ll, I’ll sit with it, I’ll work with it if I can get some momentum going. Um. It’s, it’s much faster that way. But yeah, I don’t, that doesn’t mean I immediately send it in. I’ll set it aside.

Tim Melanson: Yep. Set aside. So now what about your jam room? So tell me a little bit more about your home office. Like how do you be productive at home?

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah. Well, early on I paid attention to what colleagues were doing and so many writers apparently like to have, um, soft classical music in the background.

Or they’ll go to coffee shops and work ’cause they like the hustle and bustle, like the energy, I think it

is around them that helps them write. And so I tried all of these things thinking that that was like the secret to being productive. Mm-hmm. Not for me. So I need silence. Silence is golden. So I have a home office that has a door. Um, [00:23:00] my desk is not facing the window because if I face the window, I’d be looking at it all day long. Um, my office has carpeting, it has window, you know, treatments to absorb sound. So when I concentrate, I hear nothing else.

And that’s, and that’s key. Um.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Marcia Layton Turner: then I, I also have tech, so in addition to the, the basics I have, well, I have computer, I have a huge monitor. I have, you know, a ring light, Yeti mouse. I have an ergonomic keyboard. I have an ergonomic chair, unfortunately, that keeps breaking. Uh, but I just try and I’m trying to be prepared for whatever situation I may need to contend with, whether it’s like a podcast interview, whether it’s, um, an interview I need to do and get transcribed. But just, just try to be prepared. Quiet.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm. So when we’re talking about your [00:24:00] equipment, like what’s your opinion on like the quality of the equipment that you get? Like do you think that it’s okay to just go with the bare minimum or do you think you should splurge a little bit for that?

Marcia Layton Turner: I, I think if it is something that you’re gonna be using on a daily basis to help you produce whatever it is, you, you gotta go high end, or at least I think it’s worth the money. I go through keyboards like you wouldn’t believe because I’m typing all day long and so I, I, you know, the letters get.

Tim Melanson: Wear them off.

That’s hilarious. Yes.

Marcia Layton Turner: Um, and I invested it an ergonomic one, probably five keyboards ago because I was starting to get what I think was carpal tunnel. Um, so now I pay the big bucks for this pricey keyboard that allows me to continue to work. So it means that I am more productive. ’cause my wrists don’t get tired. My

hands don’t get tired. Um. So I, I think if you’re using it regularly, go all in. If you’re testing something out, you’re not really sure if you [00:25:00] need this, then maybe you can try the off-brand version. But I, I think it’s risky.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I think you’re right. I, I mean, I imagine there’s probably some things that the minimum would be okay, but I mean, usually the higher end versions of it are like they, they’re, they’re more convenient. They’re, they’re, they’re

made that way to be more of a better experience when you’re using it. And so.

You know, if this is your business, like, right. I mean, and, and I

think about it from the perspective of like a, like a company, like a big, big company, oftentimes when they buy their stuff, it’s not all bargain basement stuff. They, they buy the equipment that’s gonna make their workforce most productive.

And so if you’re looking for ways to cut costs. You know, maybe that’s not the place to, to cut it. I mean, maybe not the top of the, of the line, but definitely somewhere near the middle. The, the top end of it, right?

Marcia Layton Turner: I, I think, um, this is especially relevant with [00:26:00] printers,

Tim Melanson: Oh, yeah.

Marcia Layton Turner: what kind of printer you have, but you know, there are printers that are, it’s like, it’s like the um, the razor and the razor blades. So you can get a printer for 25 bucks on Black Friday,

and then you’re gonna pay tons of money for those toner cartridges that last about a week. I discovered this when I was in my doctoral program and I had to be printing out case studies every week. Oh my gosh. I went through a toner every five days. It was crazy. So then I upgraded the printer to one that had more capacity for toner. Cartridge, paid probably 500 bucks for the printer, but now my cartridge lasts more than five days.

Tim Melanson: Wow. I, I barely print anything anymore. So,

but, but yeah, for, for that right there. I mean, it’s one of those things where you do, I mean, I, I do remember like some, like print cartridges are more expensive than the printer in the first place, like.[00:27:00]

Marcia Layton Turner: Yes, yes. However, I think the more you spend on the actual equipment, the more that can help keep your, your printer expenditures down

Tim Melanson: Agreed. Now what about the band? So tell me about the team that you have working around you.

Marcia Layton Turner: well. When I came outta Kodak, I thought I needed to build this empire. You know,

I surround myself with people because that’s the environment I came

out of where everybody had their team. And, and I tried it. Um, I hired a couple employees, had a couple part-timers, and I realized that what I actually needed, uh, was people who were already experts in their fields. Uh, the employees that I hired, they were great, and I, I probably was a terrible manager. They couldn’t work at the speed or provide the same level of, um, output as I could. And

so I let them go. And for the last oh, 25 years [00:28:00] probably, I’ve relied on outside experts. So I have, I’ve had a virtual assistant for at least 25 years, like before it was even popular because I wanted to be able to hand off things that I didn’t wanna learn how to do. Like Tim, I, I don’t really need to know about the backend of a website. She handles that when I need updates here and there, I send off an email. I don’t need to do that and it’s not the best use of my time. So that’s kind of how I think about, um, my band members is what else can I hand off to them and, and what do I need to retain?

Well, I need to retain all the writing ’cause that’s why people are hiring me.

Tim Melanson: Yes.

Marcia Layton Turner: handles the tech stuff. I have a computer consultant who deals with any viruses or issues with my actual computer. I bring it over to her. She’s local. I have a graphic designer who also happens to be local, but I do use other online platforms if I, if I need something. Um, I have an [00:29:00] online researcher who’s not local. Um, I have, you know, accountant, attorney, um. Other people. Oh, transcription. I have my transcription service. They’re based in Ukraine. Um, so I just try and identify what are the key aspects of my business or my process that I don’t personally need to do. And I think I’ve at this point, pretty much delegated everything besides the writing.

Tim Melanson: Now, did you start by doing it all and then you started to delegate, or did you

like build that right at the beginning. Okay. You did? Yeah.

Marcia Layton Turner: I, yeah, I was doing it all myself because you know, when you’re in startup mode. At least I wanted to build a sustainable business. I didn’t wanna spend all my money the first, you

know, month and then be wondering how I was gonna pay for mortgage and stuff. So I built it slowly. As business would come in, I would try and identify, okay, who’s better at this than me?

And I quickly learned that a virtual assistant is worth their weight and gold because they know how [00:30:00] to do things that I don’t know how to do, and they can do the tasks faster than I could ever do them. So it’s actually. More profitable for me to hand off things to them. ’cause they’ll do it in 10 minutes when it would’ve taken me four hours.

Tim Melanson: Right on. Okay. And also another thing that is that since you had a hand in everything, you knew what to look for as well, right? You

knew whether the person was actually good at what they do or not, right?

Marcia Layton Turner: good point. Good point. Because early on, if you don’t really know how to do anything, it’s hard to judge. Like is, is this person, could they do it better than me?

And sometimes you’re not really sure and you have to take a chance. But I think the good news about hiring contractors and consultants and people like that is that you don’t have an ongoing relationship. If they turn out to be duds and they can’t actually do the work that you need them to do in the timeframe that you need it, you can cut ties and find somebody else. And it’s much easier than if you have hired someone full-time. It’s, [00:31:00] you know, it’s a process.

Tim Melanson: So now I’m actually just curious and maybe, um, but were there any parts of your business that you felt you were really good at, but you still delegated it and why?

Marcia Layton Turner: I thought for a long time that I was really good at research.

Tim Melanson: Okay.

Marcia Layton Turner: And I, and I still think I am pretty good at research. When I went back to get my doctorate, that was the primary res reason. I wanted to get better at research. I wanted to, um, you know, be faster, find better information, and I did that. But I discovered that when I got really busy and needed to hone in on the writing itself, I needed to hand off the research.

’cause it just like, I wouldn’t get any sleep if I was trying to do everything myself. And so I found someone who was, who had access to the same resources that I did, you know, scholarly kind of [00:32:00] resources. And she worked fast. So, yeah.

So then, and then once you have somebody else who does that thing, unless you love doing that part of the process, I mean, I think that’s a reason to hold onto it too.

If you, if you love something and it just brings you joy, well then you don’t have to delegate it. Unless it’s impeding your progress and growing your business, then you should consider it.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. And in this case, it was something that you didn’t necessarily love, but you, you were still good at it.

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah, I thought I was good at it. I probably overestimated my speed and yeah, I think I was probably above average. But then again, when you go to somebody who, whose business it is to do online research, they’re

gonna be better.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and uh, and also like to what you said earlier, people are hiring you to do the writing. Are they, they’re not necessarily hiring you to do the research, so that could be the reason why you’d go, okay, well, between these [00:33:00] two things, which 1:00 AM I gonna offload? Right?

Because you you don’t need to be doing the research, but I mean, what would be the point

of hiring you if you weren’t doing the writing

right?

Marcia Layton Turner: but handing those pieces off gives you more capacity to either get the client work done faster, take on more client work, you know, it, it’s makes you potentially more profitable.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Now, on the other hand there, is there a learning curve? Like, like is there like a step back before you take a step forward when you hire somebody?

Marcia Layton Turner: I. That’s a good question. I think, yeah, you do have to spend a fair amount of time evaluating your options. And even if you go to Fiverr, Upwork, you’re gonna have lots of candidates and you do need to invest some time figuring out who’s going to be the best one. And you may make a misstep, you may choose someone who’s grid on paper, but who doesn’t actually have the ability to do what you need them to do. [00:34:00] So you, you can. I don’t wanna say waste time, but you can spend time that doesn’t end up to be all that useful or productive, but that’s necessary.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s just a matter of the scaling a, a aspect of it, right? Because I think

I, I think that there’s a lot of people that are good at a lot of different things, and I mean, if you’re an entrepreneur, you probably are, you probably are pretty good at a lot of things, so you could do it all,

but when it comes down to it, you’ve only got so many hours in the day.

And we all know that when those hours are gone, you know, you can’t

take on any more work. So a decision has to be made at some point if you want to scale that business that you’re gonna have to let go of some of that work. Right?

Marcia Layton Turner: Yep. Yep.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. So now let’s talk a little bit about, about the tools that are available to us now.

And there’s a lot of them, right? Which tools do you use that are getting you the most success in your business?

Marcia Layton Turner: Well, [00:35:00] there are, I think, business tools and then there are writing tools. So, um, you know, some of the business tools that I’m using, zoom. It’s my preferred video platform. There are a bunch of other ones, but I just find it the easiest to use. Um, I use bench for my online bookkeeping,

um, so it’s automatically connected to my accounts, so they just download all the reports and then crank out the numbers for my accountant at the end of the year.

I don’t have to spend any time on it. It’s great. Um. Those are, yeah, some of, some of the businessy ones, but then for the writing, we’ve got, well, of course the Microsoft Office suite.

PowerPoint I use to some degree Excel and Word the most. Um, I use Speech Pad for, I think I mentioned for transcription. So I’ll do a Zoom call, I’ll record it, I’ll download the audio file and then I upload it to [00:36:00] Speech Pad. They have humans that will transcribe it. I love it because kind of back to your question about, um, efficiency’s kind of what we were talking about, speech pads provides. Results that I don’t have to go in and tweak. It’s formatted nicely, very accurate. So I don’t have to spend time going back through and trying to figure out, what was that word?

That doesn’t sound right, which happens a lot with some of the free services. Um. I also use Grammarly kind of in the background because I have a tendency to miss commas. It’s shocking. Uh, so it will tell me, you know, Marcia, you need a comma there, you need comma there. Um, yeah, it’s the, those are the basic ones. Just, and, and they’ve taken time to figure out, I’ve tried other ones. Some writers use a tool called Scrivener to help them with organizing material. I, I find that I like [00:37:00] word, I like starting with a blank page and then just figuring out what makes sense for me rather than being given a structure. Um, other people use. Team software like Asana

or Basecamp or things like that. I’m not generally working with a team, it’s, it’s mainly just my piece, so I don’t use those. Um, yeah, those are the basics.

Tim Melanson: so many tools. How do you decide which one to choose? Like, because there’s so many options in every one of those categories.

Marcia Layton Turner: It’s, uh, well, some of that, like the transcription is trial and error. I, I tried them. Oh, you gotta try Otter. Okay. So I tried Otter

and the formatting was.

It was difficult for me to follow the, the results probably were very accurate, but the, the formatting made it hard for me to find the quotes that I wanted. So then I tried Rev and it was not as accurate as I [00:38:00] needed. So then somebody suggested Speech Pad, which is humans, you know, behind the scenes. And once I had it, having seen the results that were, um, not optimal. I stuck with it and if something else comes along that’s even better, I might try it, but you know, I’m very happy with the results so far.

So yeah, it’s, it’s trial. Trial. See if it works. Oh, I tried a CRM system, Pipedrive,

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Marcia Layton Turner: uh, because I wanted to do a better job of managing the leads that I get. I get a lot of leads and I wanna stay in touch with them and. Back to our discussion about marketing. Sometimes when I’m too in the weeds with the work, I don’t do a great job of following up and so I bought Pipedrive, but it is so complex that, uh, I ended up canceling it ’cause I, I just wasn’t using it.

Tim Melanson: Hmm. I find that happens a lot with a lot of the tools is that [00:39:00] the tools are trying to be too much and they get too much work to figure out what they’re doing. Like a lot of these tools are like these all in one tools and you’re like, holy smokes. Like you’re doing more than what I need. And you know what?

That probably sounds a whole lot like the same thing that we talked about in the band, right? When you’re

hiring a person, you want to hire the best at what they do. You want them to be specialized because they’re probably not gonna be awesome at everything,

right.

They’re, they’re gonna have their thing.

And same thing with the tools, right?

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah, but you don’t need somebody who’s able to do everything.

That’s again, why I went to just hiring the experts. I need you to do this one thing better than anybody else,

you know? And I’ll pay you for the half an hour that you have to spend on my task. Happy to pay more because still it’s gonna give me a better result. But

yeah, it is. It is trial and error a lot of the time.

Tim Melanson: Agree. So let’s move to your guest solo. So tell me what is exciting in your business right now?

Marcia Layton Turner: Well, you know, I [00:40:00] think, um, there are two sides and, and we gotta talk about ai.

Tim Melanson: Yep. Yep.

Marcia Layton Turner: So, ’cause that’s, that’s a big thing in the writing and publishing industry right now. Um. On one hand excited because I’m finding it really helpful for back to the research piece when I need to verify a quote, for example, or find a date for something.

I’m using AI tools to, to verify information. I’m not using it for writing. I won’t. That’s, you know, again, not why people hire me, but I think. It has the potential to make us more efficient and help us get done all those ancillary activities much faster. So I’m excited for that because I’m all about efficiency. The one thing that scares me about and I, is that I think some aspiring authors. Um, expect too much or are [00:41:00] thinking that AI is going to be the solution to writing their book this

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Marcia Layton Turner: And it worries me because there are some really big limitations that I think people need to be aware of with respect to AI and book writing. And the biggest is if you use AI to generate your manuscript. Based on whatever prompt you wanna give it, um, it cannot receive copyright protection. So you’ve created this thing and essentially it’s gonna be in the public domain. Uh, publishers also won’t publish it if you admit that you used ai ’cause they don’t want it. Uh, more publishers are including, uh, clauses that require the author to state that they did not use ai. The other problem is plagiarism that you’re not aware of. If you put in a prompt to AI and say, tell me about this, and it regurgitates information, you don’t know where it has pulled that information, and it could be directly from a book that somebody else [00:42:00] wrote,

so you can be hit with a plagiarism CL claim even though you didn’t. Know that you were plagiarizing. it’s it’s just all part of the problems with the system. So I’m excited, but I really hope that people are aware of some of the downsides. Again, especially with respect to publishing. There’s some really big issues and I think AI and people. Experimenting with, it was why 2024 was so quiet for me

because people were so excited, you know, about the possibility, Hey, I won’t have to pay a writer or a ghost writer.

I’m just gonna use ai. And then they suddenly started to see, oh, they’re big downsizes. So, so now things are picking back up again. Um, but yeah, just, I, I hope people will investigate some of the issues.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I agree. I, I think, um, yeah, I think you’re right. I, I think that there’s a lot of, um. Well, I mean, there’s a lot [00:43:00] of lazy people out there. I think that AI is just gonna do it for them, and it’s, it’s not now. Uh, one of the ways that I’ve been using AI to generate content for, ’cause I, I built websites is one of the things that I do, is I will, I, I will actually either get the client or myself I’ll, I’ll, I’ll just dictate.

All the content and get it to reformat it for me. And it’s really brilliant at doing stuff like that because it’s taking me and just fixing it a little bit. Right.

Marcia Layton Turner: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tim Melanson: and, and that’s, that seems to be working really well, but I have not had any success with just saying, write this for me, and I don’t think it ever will.

Right.

Marcia Layton Turner: Right. I, what I’m seeing people doing is they’re creating their own GPTs, which is like kind

of like a tool

and they’re uploading all of their content into it so that it now has like a library of me then based on that. Asking for new [00:44:00] content, and I could see how that could be interesting. It may not be perfect, but if it’s drawing from you, then it’s gonna sound like you, based on your background, but you still have plagiarism.

You can self plagiarize and you know that’s, that’s a problem too.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. You could plagiarize even. Yeah. But, but I mean, I do, I do think that that’s where the power is gonna be is by

teaching it who you are.

Uh, because I mean, technically. I mean, wouldn’t it be, I mean, if, if AI just takes you and rewrite something that you just wrote, well, that’s kind of what you’re gonna do too.

Like, so I, I mean, I, I, I think some people are like, uh, some people are. Too scared of it and some people aren’t using it enough.

It’s somewhere gonna be in the middle. I think where it is a, a super powerful tool and uh, for things like research, as long as you make sure you ask all the fact checking questions that you need to be asking, ’cause

it, it’ll go find stuff that’s not real.[00:45:00]

Right. But I mean,

it is like having a. You know, a whole research department in, in one prompt that’ll go out there and find a bunch of stuff for you. Uh, as long as you, like you say, you make sure that you, you fact check it properly. But, but I think it’s gonna be really interesting to see what the next few years are gonna be with

with ai.

I think it is gonna tighten up quite a bit. ’cause I mean, it has come a long way in the last two

years, so imagine where it’s gonna be in the next five, right.

Marcia Layton Turner: absolutely. Yeah. No, it’s, it’s leaps and bounds ahead of where it was in, I think 2023 is probably the year I would guess that it went mainstream and that people really started to experiment. But yeah, it, it will be interesting.

Tim Melanson: We will. We’ll see. So

how do people find out more about you then?

Marcia Layton Turner: Uh, if they want to learn a little bit more about me, they’re welcome to check out my website, which is my name, Marshall layton turner.com. And if they are interested in exploring whether a ghost writer could help them with their writing, if [00:46:00] they go to the association of ghost writers.org, we have a find a Ghost writer. It’s one of the tabs, and you can search our directory of members, or you can fill out a form. And I’m happy to try and connect you with somebody who is legit and qualified.

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome. So what’s the, what does the process look like? They do. Are they, are they sending what they already have or like, does this start from scratch? Like, what, what, what? What? What do they do?

Marcia Layton Turner: Sure. So the form is really just some of the basics, and when I take that information and share it with our members, I take out identifying information. So it’s, it’s still sort of anonymized, but it’s basics like. What is it that you’re working on? Is it a book? Is it an article series? Is it blog posts?

What do you need?

What is it about? Um, what do you already have? If it’s a book, like do you have an outline? Do you have notes? Are other people gonna need to be interviewed? Just, just trying to get a sense of the scope. What’s your timeline? When do you need this buy or is [00:47:00] it just whenever? What’s your budget?

And we have some different tiers that you can choose from, along with an explanation of the level of experience you can expect

at each of those. Um, and then they. Fill that out shouldn’t take very long. It comes to me, as I said, I then check out identifying information and send it to our experienced members and say, who, who might be up for this?

Who’s interested, who has the background? And then I forward it on and the client takes it from there.

Yeah.

Tim Melanson: I love that. That’s awesome. And especially like, because you do blog posts, that’s great. ’cause I mean, I know that when you’re doing SEO, writing content is a big deal and sometimes, I mean, it can take some time, right? Even if you’re using ai, so,

so having some help with that is huge.

Marcia Layton Turner: and, and I think especially for authors, I think they don’t realize sometimes that a book is a great product to have. But even before you publish the book, you should be doing some of these other things

like blogging, writing [00:48:00] articles, things like that to establish yourself as the expert in your field if, if you’re writing a nonfiction book, of course.

Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. So let’s talk about music. Who’s your favorite rock star

Marcia Layton Turner: Ooh. I dunno, I’m, I’m not as much of a rock person.

Tim Melanson: musician?

Marcia Layton Turner: more pop. Um, but back in the day in high school, I’m trying to think of some of the bands that we would listen to. Led Zeppelin, A CDC, um,

Tim Melanson: So

then what pop do you like? Then tell me what your favorite pop star is.

Marcia Layton Turner: It, it varies by the week. I, I have serious radio and so I turn it on. I have it on hits one and I’ll just listen to, I like things that are like bop, um, like there’s one, I don’t know who the artist is, but so unfair. I sing along to that song. I love that song.

Tim Melanson: Nice. Right on. Awesome. Well thank you so much for rocking out with with me today. This has been [00:49:00] awesome.

Marcia Layton Turner: pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. And to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information and we’ll see you next time on the Work At Home Rockstar Podcast.

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar Podcast. I’m talking to the founder and CEO of Perform and Function and what he does, he’s an executive coach, he’s a leadership team, organization development consultant. He’s an author, a speaker. And what he’s doing is he’s helping people to increase their self-awareness, empathy, uh, emotional intelligence, interpersonal dynamics, and to discover their purpose and passion and achieve their business and life goals.

So I’m excited to be rocking out today with Karl Hebenstreit right. Hey, Karl, you ready to rock?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: I am totally ready to rock. Tim. Let’s jam.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. We always start off here in a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: So I think, uh, probably the success story for me is leaving corporate America as an internal employee and deciding to take the plunge and become a solopreneur, an entrepreneur in a solo entrepreneurship, and actually being able to live my life. With the purpose that I want to support the clients who want to [00:01:00] be supported and do the work and see the change that I’m trying to invoke in people that actually want to change.

So that’s the, that was the biggest, the plunge that I took four years ago, a little over four years ago, and it’s been a wonderful experience ever since. I can’t see myself going back.

Tim Melanson: That’s amazing. Yes. Once you go this way, you’re not gonna go back. Right. There’s too many advantages and, uh, and a lot of the things that you were afraid about. I mean, hey, was there. Things that you were afraid, you know, that was kind of holding you back.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Of course, of course. So,

Tim Melanson: and how did they transpire?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: so I think one of the biggest things that was. Something that I was not looking forward to and, and actually COVID helped with this, was not having a support network. I’m a very social person and wanting to be around people and going into the office and being around people was always something very important to me, and having those relationships and connections, so going solo would prevent me from having that.

However, being. In shutdown for [00:02:00] during COVID showed me that I could still have those relationships and connections. They are virtual and then at times they can become phy in person, right? You can actually physically be in person with someone at some point, and that has to happen at some point as well.

But those virtual connections can be just as strong as some of the ones that you have to physically be in a a site or location for some other challenges that I was concerned about, were. How would I be? Make sure that I would continue to get some steady revenue stream that would be predictable, uh, and pay for during vacations.

How would I continue to be paid for? Well, you’re not, but that’s a different story. You have to change your mindset a little bit around that, and you just have to be. Ready for the unpredictability and the ebbs and flows and you get to predict them. Once you’ve been in business for a couple years, you can see like when are gonna be my busy times and are gonna be my slower times, when can I take a vacation and not worry about not being able to support my clients or missing out on business or anything [00:03:00] like that.

But again, it just takes a mindset shift and really the faith that the business will come. Especially when you’re solid in your career and you have worked in many different companies and you have wonderful connections and networking contacts from all these different companies in the past, and even currently, the business will come based on that.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. If you’ve been a good employee, then chances are you’ll be okay. At least right when you,

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Yeah, your reputation, right? When people know your reputation, they’ve worked with you, they’ve seen the results. They know how collaborative you can be. They know how. They know your skills and your expertise, and they know that you can be, you’re dependable. They will remember you and they will come back to you and they can say that, you know, I may not be in the same company that I was in with you.

I’m now in a different company. Can you come in and help us with this? Something similar to what you helped in the past, or we need to expand on something. Can you help with that? That’s what happens, and your [00:04:00] network is huge. Your network is really how things happen. It’s, and I know lots of people go out there and do cold calling and, and participate in all sorts of different vendors that help them with sending out emails or, or doing sales navigator stuff.

That’s not how you’re gonna get your business. You’re gonna get your business from the people that know you, that have worked with you, that can vouch for you, that can give you references, they can refer you to other people. That’s how your business is gonna come around and that’s going to continue growing.

Tim Melanson: That’s how it worked out for me too.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Mm-hmm.

Tim Melanson: You know, and, and it, it is true. ’cause I think that a lot of people will, uh, I don’t know, just be afraid to contact their, their local network, maybe thinking that they’re gonna be bugging them or whatever it is. But I mean, you know, if you do good work and you know, whatever it is that you do is something that other people are gonna need, well then why not let people know what you’re doing?

Right?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: There are some personalities that are better at it than others. There are some [00:05:00] that are more assertive and more open and comfortable with reaching out to people and saying, this is what I’m doing. Do you need help? Or do you know anyone that needs help? And other people are more, let let my work speak for itself.

They’ll find me. Right. Who is more likely to get the business or. The, the reach out, right? So, and, and it could be a little bit of both, right? So you do have to step into your, out of comfort spot, your discomfort, and really go and, and market yourself and let people know that you are available, that you can help them.

And it would be great to work with them again. So that’s really the message. And you can show them the successes. You can have case studies, you can have all sorts of different things and how you can help them improve the situation that they’re in, and make a stronger business, make better interpersonal relationships with their teams, with their organizations, which again, always leads to, to better business outcomes and more [00:06:00] revenue.

So it’s, it’s great. It’s, it’s really, it’s really stepping outta that. That comfort zone, getting into the discomfort, letting people know, putting it on LinkedIn, putting it on Facebook. If they don’t wanna see it, they’ll scroll past, but they’ll still keep you in the back of their minds.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, and uh, I know I’ve had a bit of a, a wake up when I will see like a peer that is nowhere near as good as I am going out there getting a bunch of success because they just have the ability to get out there and tell people what’s going on. Right. Like, it’s, it’s, it’s frustrating in a way ’cause you’re thinking, oh geez, you know, I’m, I’ve got so much more experience, I’ve been doing this for so much longer.

How are they getting so much success so quickly? But you know, on the, on the, on the flip side of that, I mean, you know, if you do really, really good job, even if it is just for a few people, eventually those referrals come back to you, don’t they?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Exactly. Exactly. And the other thing I want to go back to just what you said is how are they getting this business? And I’m [00:07:00] not, how are they getting these successes? And I’m not, we all have that capability to sell ourselves to. Toot our horn to, you know, tout our accomplishments, whatever it is that you want to talk about.

That way, it’s just that it’s uncomfortable for some of us and more comfortable for others. However, we still have that ability and we can reach out into it and say, you know, I’m worth it. It’s, you know, the self-esteem needs to increase that self-esteem and put it out there because people can’t read your mind that you’re there and you’re available and you can do this for them.

They have to be told, right? They, there are creatures that need to hear the, the message and the communication be reminded of it. So that’s really what needs to happen.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and you know, it’s, it’s actually interesting because the, the customers themselves, you know, everybody kind of has these same personalities, right? Some people are very e easy, they can talk to people, very easy. And some people have a hard time talking to people even when they need something. So it’s actually possible that there could be somebody in your network that wants your services and [00:08:00] is afraid to ask you.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Exactly, exactly. You have hit the right note there with that, uh,

Tim Melanson: Assessment.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Absolutely. Yes.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. So now along with the good notes, sometimes things don’t go as planned. There’s some mistakes that you can make along the way, and I’m wondering, can you share with me something that didn’t go as planned and, and how you recovered from that?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: I think early on in my career. Was the biggest mistake that I made that helped put me on a more positive trajectory to realize that this is the journey I need to be on. So, earlier on in my career, I thought I knew intuitively what other people needed. And I think it’s the same issue that most of us have.

It’s, it’s, we think that other people think that the way we do or have the same values or, or preferences as as we do because we can’t read their minds and know. What they want, what their values are, what their challenges are, what their needs are. So early on in my career, when I was in my twenties, I was [00:09:00] tasked with going and presenting at a conference, and I presented as if the people that were in the audience were gonna want my product.

They, they, they could see the value immediately and they, why wouldn’t they wanna buy that or buy into this, this program? And the reality was, I wasn’t speaking their language, I wasn’t. Talking about their pain points. I wasn’t asking them what they were looking for in the presentation, and I had people walk out on me, and this was very embarrassing and very hurtful, and it was a great lesson for me to learn that I don’t know what they want unless I ask them for it.

So luckily I had a, a second session right after that and I pivoted and I asked the people what they wanted, what they were looking for, told them what I was looking to do, how I could change the presentation or the message or the communication to fit their needs. And that’s my biggest realization that.

Yeah, we need to figure out what other people want, what they’re looking for, and what they need so that we can explain it in the terms that they want to hear, so that [00:10:00] they’re not gonna reject something or don’t see the value in it because it’s not being spoken in the language or in the way that they want to receive it.

So that was my biggest lesson of let go of the golden rule of treating others the way that I want to be treated, and instead find out how they want to be treated to go to the platinum rule and treat them, communicate with them, approach them in a way that they want to be treated. In the way that is gonna be most responsive for them and learn from that.

Then go into the platinum rule and say, okay, how can I integrate this new perspective with this new knowledge that they don’t, they’re not gonna look at it the way that I do. Let me take the value from their perspective, integrate it into mine, and now I have a much more expansive worldview and I can be even more inclusive in future interactions.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Right. Um, you know, I had a, a similar experience early on. I, uh, I was referred to a, to a business coach who needed some tech support and now was doing some tech support stuff. And I remember, I, I, I helped, helped her out with her problem, fixed it, everything [00:11:00] was great. And then because she’s a business coach, she’s like, okay, well.

Because I’m a business coach and you helped me out. I just can’t not ask you some questions. So, so she asks me about my website and she says, okay, just bring it up. So she looks at my website and it is technical jargon everywhere, right? Like, and she looks at that and she goes, oh. She’s like, Tim, if I had seen this website before I hired you, I wouldn’t have hired you.

And I was like, oh dang. She’s like, I don’t understand a word. This is, and I am your, your target client. So it’s, it’s very similar, right? People, people just don’t, you can be all super technical and write all this crazy stuff, but people don’t understand any of that stuff. They just want to know how you’re gonna fix a problem, right? Yep.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Reach them in the language in which they speak. Yeah. How they wanna receive the message.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Right on. So, let’s talk a little bit about getting fans. ’cause you know, in today’s world, there’s lots of people out there, lots of [00:12:00] ways that you could reach out. What’s the way that you found, you know, especially in, I mean, you’ve been, it is the last four years, so it’s fairly recent here.

How are you getting success in, in creating that audience? Actually no, in converting that audience to fans.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Yeah, so I’m gonna go back to what you, the story that you just talked about, website. You have to have a website, and that website has to be easy to navigate and have all the information in the language that your target audience is gonna want to read it and receive it. So definitely have that, that clean website.

And I, mine was just totally revamped. I’d had a website that I, I created, so you, you can imagine how good that was. It was not, uh, back in. Started in 2001 and just kept adding to it. So I can’t even tell you how many different pages, landing pages there were. I think there it was probably at least a dozen little tabs to go all the way across.

It was, yeah, it was a little cumbersome and had all the information that you needed. Absolutely had great resources, great information, but probably. Uh, not as, [00:13:00] yeah, it was overwhelming and not as friendly to people to come to visit it. So definitely have a great branded representation of yourself in a way that your target audience can go and read it and access it and know that this is.

Like your, your client that was receiving your technical services would say, yes, this is the person I wanna hire. Right? Have all the information and just enough to say, yeah, I wanna reach out and ask more questions. So, and definitely have wonderful content there that is relevant to people, and people can definitely go to my website and get some wonderful downloads that are free.

That can definitely help ’em in all aspects of their lives. It’s www.perperformandfunction.com. It’s a play on word form and function per perform and function.com. And check out the different tabs and look at the downloads there. You can get some great, uh. Resources, like there’s the Explicit Expectations Alignment Guide, which can help you in your, your relationships and your communication with people and, and really understanding how to work better with people.[00:14:00]

But anyway, so Mark Market, that website that you have, get it out there. Definitely also take advantage of LinkedIn. LinkedIn is great for all those professional re relationships and resources and network contacts that you have. Keep building that LinkedIn network from all of your clients, your past coworkers and colleagues, your bosses, your customers.

Just add them all in there because it’s a great way for you to post and let them know what’s going on, what you’re doing, and it’ll be a great reminder for them. It’s not like you’re hitting them over the head with, here’s another email, here’s another newsletter, here’s another whatever. It’s they, they have to go to LinkedIn to see this, so when they’re, when it’s on their turn, their time to go and look at LinkedIn, you’ll, you’re.

Updates will pop up in, in your, if you’ve written an article, if you’re on a podcast, if you’re, whatever it is, it’ll pop up there and keep you top of mind to them to see what you’re doing, what you’re talking about. That’s on brand, [00:15:00] that’s referencing what could be important to them and their challenges and their needs, so you’re always gonna be in the back of their minds that way.

Mention podcast. Definitely look into podcasts that are gonna highlight your expertise to get it out into the world. So not only your, uh, network will see it when you post it on LinkedIn or Facebook or, or, or Twitter or X or Blue Sky or wherever it is or Instagram, but the world will see it too, and someone else may tap into that.

My very first podcast that I did, this was. Oh, many, many years ago, I’d probably say about 10, 15 years ago, that netted ultimately a client that I still have for the past. Four to five years I’ve been working with that company, and that was, that wasn’t even my intention. Someone asked me to be on their podcast.

I said, okay, sure. I’ve never been on a podcast before. And that has come out. That relationship has come out of that. [00:16:00] So you’d never know where a podcast will lead, who will hear the podcast and say, yes, this is exactly who I need, or, I need to talk to this person. This person needs to talk to my business partner, or whatever it is that can happen from those.

Write articles, write blogs, uh, get interviewed for different media that, that reach out and are looking for expertise people to talk about expertise in your area. There are wonderful resources, free resources out there that you can tap into for finding out what podcasts are looking for guests, what, what websites are looking for people to write blogs or people to interview for articles or series or whatever.

Check all those different things out and get your name out there. So that’s, uh, a great way to, to make sure that you’re keeping in touch with your network as well as reaching out even more broadly to tap into other people that may not even know you yet.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. There’s so many options out there nowadays. That’s what’s [00:17:00] so good, but also so cumbersome too, right? Because where do you start? I mean, you only have so many hours in the day, right?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Mm-hmm. Well, your first stop should be Tim.

Tim Melanson: Hmm.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: out to Tim.

Tim Melanson: Yep. Absolutely. So, let’s talk a little bit about practicing Now. Nobody really likes to practice, I don’t think, but it, it’s, it’s important. And I’m wondering what, what is it that you do for practice? Mm-hmm.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: So practice. Luckily I get to integrate it into other aspects of the performance too. So my practice can be from reading books that are new on the subject matter, for example, the Enneagram of other colleagues or or other practitioners or writing books on the topic. And I. I need to stay on top of what’s going on with Enneagram or coaching or, so definitely reading books and attending conferences is, I think the, the one that combines multiple forms of practice as well as performance.

Because [00:18:00] when I go to a conference, I will usually be a speaker at the conference, but then I can also get to attend all of the other speakers and the events that are going on there too. So it’s a performance, but it’s also networking and it’s also practice. Because I’m practicing, I’m learning from other people at the same time.

So conferences are huge, especially if you’re fortunate enough to be a speaker at it, because then you get more exposure. Other people learn about what you’re doing. They can develop in the moment and take practices home to continue their development. But you’re also learning and developing yourself, like listening and attending and participating in other of the speakers events as well.

So I think those are huge.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, that’s a great idea. If you can figure out a way to make the performance and the practice kind of work together, then that’s like a win-win everywhere. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I know that, uh, for, for me, in, in with my music, I actually host jam nights, you know, once a week. And so it’s twice a week actually now.

So it’s, it’s it’s practice and it’s performance at the same [00:19:00] time. Right. And I mean, what a win you can get there, right. When you can create an environment where whatever you’re doing is, you know, less pressure than an actual performance, but also, but, but also you, you have some way to. Move the needle forward in your business through your practice, right?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Right. And conferences can also be, yes, they can be pressure filled, but they can also be, you’re among your peers, you’re among your, among your colleagues. They wanna see you succeed. They wanna learn from you, and you wanna learn from them so that the, that pressure is. I would say mitigated a little bit.

So I think conferences are

Tim Melanson: I love it. ’cause it’s it, like you say, it’s performance, it’s practice, and it’s team building and

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It’s all, everything together.

Tim Melanson: I love that. So let’s talk a little bit about the instruments and the tools that we use to get success in our businesses. And I mean, nowadays there’s lots of technology. Uh, what, what, what is, what is it that you use in your business to get success?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: So. [00:20:00] We already spoke about LinkedIn and maybe you can include Facebook in there and social media platforms as well. Calendly has been wonderful, especially I’m a solopreneur in my business, so it’s a free calendar system that can help your clients schedule meetings with you. You don’t have to the back and forth and all the administrivia of going and communicating and say, are you available then no.

This is the wrong time zone or, or whatever it is. It does it all for you. So I, I’m a big fan of Calendly. It’s fantastic. You just have to make sure that you’re keeping it up to date. If you travel and you go somewhere, change your time zone. Because it’s still going to, it doesn’t know that you’re traveling, so make sure that you update your time zone so that they, you know, what times you’re really available for, on specific dates.

So that’s, uh, that’s a, a great lesson learned there. Also, I’m gonna throw in. Other tools being resources. So you have to have a really good accountant, a really good tax accountant to help you with what you need to do, [00:21:00] keep you on track with, okay, here’s deadlines that you need to submit for taxes for whatever it is.

Uh. Have a great accountant and at some points you may also need other resources, a great printing resource, a great print shop or anything like that. If you need to print a, do print, um, someone great to help you with your website if you don’t wanna do it yourself or if you don’t have time to do it yourself or you don’t wanna learn how to do it yourself.

I also use ai, so I partnered with an AI vendor to help create a clone of myself to do coaching and also delivering of e-learning. So there is an AI version of me, so it’s a IR Karl who’s a clone and delivers some of the workshops electronically virtually, and I don’t need to be there. And also the coaching.

Tim Melanson: That’s crazy. Yeah, there’s a lot of that going on. I actually took a, a, uh, a seminar with Tony Roberts, with Tony Robinson. That’s exactly what he was teaching is the AI clones. Uh, I mean, it’s crazy what they can do. [00:22:00] Um, it’s overwhelming in a lot of ways as well. Uh, but I can just imagine where things are gonna be in a few years, right?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Yes, absolutely. So, wait, am I am, am I speaking to your clone right now or is this the real Tim?

Tim Melanson: This is the real Tim, believe it or

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Okay, good. Good. Yeah, that’s just, just what a clone

Tim Melanson: though. Yeah. What about you? Are you the real Karl?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Who can say

Tim Melanson: Who can say, isn’t that

R. Karl Hebenstreit: what does real really mean?

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I think at this point we probably would be able to tell. Uh, but I don’t know if that’s gonna be the case in a few years.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: I’m not glitching out yet.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, actually that’s the real you, the clone wouldn’t glitch like that.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: that’s right.

Tim Melanson: Right on. Well, it is time for your guest solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your business right now.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: So I am really excited This past end of November and through the beginning of December, I was actually on a cruise ship and I got to [00:23:00] speak five times on the cruise ship. So I’m really focusing more on doing more speaking, keynote speaking engagements, and this was a great launch into that. So I’m really focusing on that in my business.

Obviously I can’t do that from home, but all the pre-work and all of the marketing and all of the logistics and getting ready for it is all done at home. And so the majority of my time, of course, I am working from home. Um, especially I, I do my executive coaching from home. It’s all done virtually via Zoom and I can deliver workshops.

Virtually as well, which I do from home and on the occasions that I do need to physically travel, for example, the end this month, I am going to, if it’s good enough for Celine, it’s good enough for me. I’m going to Caesar’s Palace and I will be doing a gig, uh, not a singing gig like Celine did, but I will be doing a, a workshop for about 200 people there for a couple hours, and I’m really excited about doing.

Those types of speaking engagements where it’s a large number of people that are getting the message at the same time, and I can make the most impact with that large number of people. So that’s, uh, that’s what [00:24:00] I’m really excited about.

Tim Melanson: That’s amazing. So who would be the person that would get the most outta working with you?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Anyone could get the most outta working with me. I work from individual contributors all the way up to this, uh, teams and this C-suite. So. Anyone who wants to bring me into an organization to show them, I, I specifically work with the Enneagram, which is an amazing tool. You asked about other tools. I mean, we, we are talking about more actual tools of, of business tools, but this is the, the, the tool for the transformation that I would use with a coaching client or even in a workshop or in a speaking engagement.

In a keynote where I can help people get from that golden rule to the platinum and rhodium rules, and really start understanding what motivates themselves and what motivates others. So if that’s a need in your life to try to understand yourself and others better, and everyone has that need. Then I am happy to work with you and your organization.

I’ve actually written a children’s book called Nina and the really, really tough [00:25:00] decision, which translated into five languages to help children learn about this earlier on in their lives. So it’s not as difficult for them to have these, these learnings and experiences later on in life, and they have to change their mindsets.

Then they can start off with the right mindset and really see how to integrate everyone else’s perspectives along with their own to have a broader worldview and a better understanding of themselves than others. Grow that empathy and emotional intelligence. Yeah,

Tim Melanson: That’s amazing. You mentioned your website earlier and I’m wondering like, what’s the process of someone you know, if they did wanna work with you? Like how, how do they go about doing that? Is there forms they have to fill out or what, what, what happens?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: not really. My contact information is right on the website. They can send me an email at Karl with A-K-K-A-R l@performancefunction.com. People have gotten in touch with me through LinkedIn and sent me, um, that they, they want something or they’re interested in getting more information or they have a, a conference coming up or a meeting coming up and they have a workshop or they need a keynote speaker.

So LinkedIn works great. There [00:26:00] is definitely through the website you can see all the different services that are being offered and there’s a way to get in touch with me on the website as well by filling out a form there. But there’s so many different ways and my phone number’s even on there. So it’s, yeah, there are so many different ways and you can obviously just schedule a meeting on Calendly too.

Tim Melanson: All right, Karl, this is probably the hardest question all day. So who is your favorite rock star?

R. Karl Hebenstreit: My favorite rock’s pink. I’m gonna go with pink. She’s the, you said rock, so I’m gonna go with pink because she’s kind of, I mean, she is rock.

Tim Melanson: she’s

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Yeah, she is awesome. What a performer. What a multifaceted and talented performer. Powerhouse, not only with vocals, but with meaningful. She has the right message.

She has the right values. She’s like flying through the air. She’s just incredible.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I saw the, uh, there was a documentary about her a

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Yes. I saw that too.

Tim Melanson: And yeah, I mean, she’s more like a, like an acrobat than a,

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Yes.

Tim Melanson: than a, uh, dancer for sure.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Yeah. [00:27:00] We’ve seen her in concerts several times and I’m, I’m happy to see her anytime she’s, she’s around. She’s just an incredible human being.

Tim Melanson: I’m right on, right on. Love it. Favorite song.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Ooh, from pink or just overall?

Tim Melanson: From Pink.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: Oh boy. Oh, oh my God. So many. Um, oh, perfect. Let’s go with perfect. I won’t use the, uh, I won’t, I won’t use the one that goes before it.

Tim Melanson: This is the G version of it.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: That’s the, that’s the, yes. The, the podcast appropriate and a prude version of that song.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. So much fun rocking out with you today, Karl, this has been great.

R. Karl Hebenstreit: It was wonderful hanging out, rocking out, and jamming out with you two, Tim.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Thank you so much. And to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information and to follow the Work at Home Rockstar Podcast.

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar Podcast. Excited for today’s episode. We are talking to the owner of Fight Club, martial Arts and Archery Training Center, incorporated. He also the Master’s method. So I’m excited to be rocking out with today with Emmanuel. Hey, he helps people to go inward and I guess figure out who they are and, uh, we’re gonna learn a lot more about that in a few minutes.

So welcome to the show, Emmanuel Manolakakis.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Man, look. You got it, man.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. So, hey Emmanuel, you ready to rock?

Emmanuel Manolakakis: I am right.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. We always start off here in a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Oh, many, many, uh, stories of success. I mean, uh, for fight club, uh, man, it’s been, um, getting close to 25 years for, uh, martial art club, and I still remember. In the first year or some first year that I started, uh, uh, teaching. It was just the part-time thing at the time. Uh, you know, somebody came in [00:01:00] and said, uh, straight out to me, if you could imagine this set out to me.

Uh, he was looking at different packages that I had for training in martial arts and he said, uh, I’ll, I’ll take the six month one because. Most martial art clubs don’t make it to two or three years. So he goes, I don’t wanna Right to like imagine right to your face. I was still shocked and like basically said, you won’t be around so I don’t wanna commit to you.

And I’m like, wow. That’s, that’s it. I I, and at first it upset me and then I realized, but that’s the truth. And this is the hard part of, of, of life, right? This is the truth. And I said, you know what? I’m gonna make sure that I do everything in my power to make sure that it makes it to three years.

Tim Melanson: That’s a good goal.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: it’s now it’s 25, and it was, I, every time I’m here, every time I do another year, and January’s coming around the corner now, every time I do another year.

I’m just, I’m so grateful and blessed that to be able to do this, I know there’s not many martial arts schools, uh, operating at a full-time capacity, uh, for this long. Um, so I’m quite special. I mean, it, it’s a testament [00:02:00] to a lot of the hard work, but at the same time, it’s still, um, so much of being an entrepreneur.

Being a person is a little bit of luck, right? Like, you gotta, you gotta get lucky too. You gotta be good. You gotta be lucky too. So I’ve been blessed with both. Um, so that’s a great, that’s one of my good, one of my favorite stories that it’s still around ’cause of what that person said.

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome. Uh, I mean it’s, uh, it, it’s definitely the same in just about any business, right? I mean, there’s, most businesses don’t make it through even the first year. So,

Emmanuel Manolakakis: No they don’t. Yeah, they don’t.

Tim Melanson: yeah. So now I.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: go ahead.

Tim Melanson: Well, well, so I was gonna say like on that note, I mean there are things that don’t go as planned, which is the reason why most businesses don’t get through.

And I like to talk about these bad notes because it’s something that keeps people out a lot. You know, they think maybe that person who would’ve said that to them, maybe, maybe they might’ve went, ah, okay, maybe I shouldn’t be doing this. Right. Um, so I was wondering, can you share with us something that didn’t go as planned, something that was a [00:03:00] big mistake that you recovered from?

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Okay. Big mistakes, so. When I first started, so there’s, it’s not. I, I don’t see things as right and wrong. Uh, but you can, we can look at this for your listeners. There are things that just happen and no matter, you know, no matter how good we all are, like as an athlete, when I was a younger athlete and I played it pretty high level sports, um, you know, we practiced all week long and we had a great plan and we, we thought of it, everything that could happen.

But when the game happened, man, it all went, it all went. The shit, you know, just went crazy and you just realize the team that will really make it to a higher level. Are the ones that are adaptable, the teams that are able to be, you watch it in hockey, you watch it in baseball, the teams that play together, and that can adapt quickly because everybody’s figuring you out and you’ve gotta be adaptable.

Even as a martial artist, as a person in general, society is changing. You are changing. I mean, getting older, your, your views are changing. Your knowledge is changing. So, you know, [00:04:00] in. When it comes to martial arts, you see a lot of it’s, I, I can only speak specifically to martial arts, but it’s also to musicians.

Anybody that is in the creative realm, right? Like there’s, there’s some creativity there. Everybody begins by copying somebody, right? Like if you’re a musician, of course you’re gonna play Stairway to have it if you stay there like. For five or 10 years, you see the problem, like you’re not, there’s no authentic, and people will realize that, right?

When you’re running your own business, the biggest mistake you can make is copying all the time. Um, it’s fine to do it a little bit at the beginning only to get your bearings and then find out what’s your take on it. How did you, you know, like how did you change it? And that only comes from authenticity.

If you’re a chef, it’s you, you cook from the, the foods that you like, the things that you experienced. Or if you’re a musician, well you, you develop your voice, you develop your song, you develop the stories [00:05:00] and the, and the, the, the, the writing material to be more authentic. And then you connect. So, you know, in martial arts, there’s a tendency to think that you can make everybody happy.

Like somehow cover all the bases. But you can’t do that. That’s ridiculous. You can only, you can only connect with some people that wanna listen or agree with your perspective. That’s it. So don’t make the mistake of trying to make everybody happy. You don’t need to. You could just, you could just do what you do and find your raving fans that, that love you.

You know? So really start it small and like kindling wood and create a big fire of people that, um, like what you do and like exactly how you do it. That doesn’t mean that they hate other people, but they like how you do it and what you do. Right? Like, I like Johnny Cash for Johnny Cash. Like, I didn’t want Johnny Cash to be Bernie Spears.

I don’t want him to. I want that, that, that. That, that’s what I like. So I think a big mistake is, uh, [00:06:00] um, when people start to copy too long, and that can go for even a restaurant. Find your niche, man. Find your niche, find what you, find what you do, and do it really well. You know? And that, that, that is, is probably the the mistake.

The mistake I’ve seen that I did at the beginning too. I started to copy what other martial arts schools did and it was fine. It was a starting point, and then I’m like. That’s not me. I’m not, and I I’m not one of these guys that’s gonna scare students. Like, oh my God, someone’s gonna jump you and beat you up.

And I’m not, I can do that. I’m gonna teach you how to fight as a, as, as a, as a, a warrior poet, as a something. It’s beautiful. I’m not gonna, I want you to understand, you don’t have to fight because you’re angry. You can fight because you love what’s behind you. You don’t have to hate what’s in front of you.

You can just love what’s behind you. That’s all it really is. Like it. Those are old warriors we’re warriors in, in old societies, not that long ago, couple hundred years [00:07:00] ago, it was the most respected person. It’s the person that protected your society, you know, and he was, he was a noble person. It wasn’t like an animal or something.

What’s happened now in martial arts specifically is um, people are crisscrossing entertainment versions. And you know, so well listen, you know, I don’t wanna upset people. We need to be honest about stuff. Boxing used to be a beautiful martial art, but then, and then it was, but then it got associated with entertainment and then it got associated with Vegas and drinking and gambling.

And then so now it changed and it became entertainment. It’s not so much and people can’t, if you can’t see that, you don’t, you, you’re missing it. Right? Uh, MMA is a wonderful thing. Uh, it’s great, but it’s also entertainment. Right. So forget that when you’re protecting yourself, it’s your country, it’s your life.

It’s something really important. It’s not like to, to entertain you. It’s [00:08:00] like, remember that scene from Gladiator? Or you’re not entertained. Like, it’s like, he’s like, I’m in general man. I protected you guys, but now you want me to entertain you. He’s so, he was so frustrated with this concept. I’m a warrior.

I went to battle and protected freedoms and had liberty and noble and respect, and you want me not to dance around and entertain you? It’s like, I, I can’t do that side of martial arts. You know? I can appreciate it. Um, but I, I can’t, I can’t do that side. There’s, if you wanna entertain, you can go see a movie, play some sports and stuff like that.

But for me, martial arts is something a little bit different and I, I think that. Um, for your listeners, you have such a spectrum in music as you’re a musician, right? You have people that do it just for the love of music, right? And, and then they still make a quite a good living. They don’t, they’re not poor.

They’re, but they don’t want like a Britney Spears, they don’t want that, right? There’s a lot of people like this, you know, very impressive people, um, in, uh, [00:09:00] in, in the food industry. And there are people that wanna run a Michelin Star restaurant. What is the difference between a regular restaurant, Michelin, it’s just more detail. The bar is much higher. It’s really simple. They don’t care about more customers or more patrons. It’s like, this food represents me, it represents everything. And it’s like, whoa. And when you, who wouldn’t like me, part of a Michelin star, whoever hasn’t had an experience you gotta do at least once in your life, it’s pretty amazing, right?

It’s, and that bar is set by the entrepreneur.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: That the person running that restaurant, it’s a chef. His and he, he holds what he does at a very high standard, right? And entrepreneurs can choose that you, it’s your choice. Now. You can have a low standard, high standard, or somewhere in between. It’s up to you, right?

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, when it comes to music for sure, I mean, there’s so many things that you went through there. [00:10:00] There’s, uh, you know, even genre, right? I mean, if you’re trying to make everybody happy, you know, there are people that sort of gravitate towards one genre and if they like country and you’re playing death metal.

Probably not gonna like you very much, right?

Emmanuel Manolakakis: but I, I will tell you, I will tell you this though, there’s two, um, musicians at the Fight Club. Um. Both longtime students and one of them is a death metal guitarist. And I will tell you, I I, I’ve known him for a better part of 15 years, a wonderful man and he, um, his taste in music is all over the place.

You can go to his house and he will listen to jazz. He’ll listen to blues. He’ll, he listens to everything. This is a big misconception people have of a lot of it. At the metal guys, like people on the extreme listen to all kinds of music. You know, they’re, they don’t, they love all of it. They’re not saying, oh, it’s not, it’s not this or that.

Like a good chef, he doesn’t care. He might, he might be cooking, uh, making a [00:11:00] Japanese chef, but he can appreciate his French cooking. A, a great chefs, great people, great musicians, they totally appreciate, they love the authenticity. They see that, right. That’s, that’s a, that’s the highest to me, when you’re talking master level stuff, which is the course masters method that I teach.

It’s, it’s really just who you are. And the person that does that, uh, in, in a seamless way and who they are. It doesn’t matter if you’re a chef, a musician, a martial artist, you are showing people who you are. And that’s, I mean, I’m not sure what greater thing anybody could ask for, um, in this world than before you leave this world that people knew who you were, like most people that they don’t know that, you know.

So it really is authenticity that that’s at the core of all of this, and that doesn’t come easy.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and a lot of that, that very, very heavy, heavy metal. It’s, uh, it’s technically very, very, very difficult. Right.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Tim Melanson: kind of like at the top level, which to [00:12:00] me that kind of makes sense. I think that’s why it’s so difficult to understand for the average person, the average person.

Um, you know, we’re bombarded with all this formulaic, very, very simple, simple music. That’s the stuff that ends up on the pop charts, right? Uh, so something that’s, that technically difficult like , you know, even in the seventies when music came out, uh, in, in the eighties and even in the nineties, I think it started change in the nineties.

Remember when you had to like, listen to something a few times before you liked it. Like, like, that doesn’t happen anymore now. I mean, you, you, the music is created in such a way that you listen to the first time and you’re hooked. And that’s how it’s created. It’s, it’s not, uh, it’s not the same, you know?

And, and I think that, I think that’s the difference between music. I think a lot of people ain. Uh, I mean you say that about fighting, it’s the same in everywhere. I think that everything has become more entertainment. It’s built for the entertainment value of it, rather than [00:13:00] just for the love of it. Right.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: I love it. Yeah, and you can always tell, because listen, like I said, copying is fine at the very beginning. We all do it. We copy our teachers, it’s fine. But at some point you have to look at yourself and say, would I really do this? Like, that’s all I’m saying. Would I really do this? Because under pressure, um, real pressure, talking game pressure, the game is on the line pressure or.

For more serious matters like a military people, like your life is on the line. Like that kind of stuff, right? Like that, that’s a lot of reality for people, right? Any of the first responders, every time they go to a call, you don’t know what you’re gonna face. It can be, people may not understand that ambulance, police, firefighter, whoever gets their first.

Somebody calls 9 1 1. Whoever gets there first is responding. And if it’s violent, it’s violent. If it’s, if it looks calm, but then becomes violent like you, their, their lives are on the line, uh, in many cases. And you, when you’re that kind of a person. You are gonna be ’cause you [00:14:00] won’t care. You’re gonna be who you are.

Right. It that’s not just for old people. You know, you meet those old people that just don’t care. Right. They just tell you if they don’t like you tell you to go to. I love, that’s so funny to me because they, they realize they don’t care. They finally reach that point where this is who I am. If you like me, great.

If you don’t, I got this way somehow. You know? And if you want to care to understand how I got here. Right. So as a teacher, I try to, I try to really understand who somebody is. So I’m, I’m teaching an art of course, but I’m also trying to understand the person and seeing how we can bring them together.

Right. And if you ever watch those shows, like the Voice. It’s really amazing how these top level singers look at a person saying, I, I, I, you’re, you’re playing somebody else’s song, but I want to hear it your way. I don’t wanna hear that person. I don’t wanna hear Billy Joel. I want your version of Billy Joel.

And then what, what those professional, you know, uh, you know, [00:15:00] singers are, are, are analyzing is, is the authenticity of that voice And it’s like a, a, somebody looking at a painting, is that a Rembrandt, you know, like. Man there, a lot goes into it, right? If you got, if you are comfortable with your voice and you’re comfortable with who you are, and you can sing somebody else’s stuff in your way, that’s what I want.

That, that I think is a good life. Like you, you’re finding your way. ’cause there is no purpose that that serves Canada, the world, anybody. If you’re just copying somebody all the time, there’s just no purpose.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: It’s just you. It,

Tim Melanson: gets you,

Emmanuel Manolakakis: yeah. The old, the old.

Tim Melanson: figure out what your style is, right?

Emmanuel Manolakakis: the old, the old Greeks used to say, when you need a hero, like when you need a hero in life, you need him now.

Not you don’t have time to train him. So who is a hero? A hero is somebody who sees things differently that nobody’s prepared for. This is the whole kung fu panda. [00:16:00] This is the whole how to train a dragon. The person was absolutely different from the, from the society and, and the enemy or the, or the problem was not ready for them. And that’s how you are victorious. And, and that says so much. Like I, that’s why I I, when I see teachers, especially with young kids, because I teach kids too, and again, here’s a whole other story. I didn’t want to teach kids if we all, I didn’t wanna teach kids, but I’m so good at it. Um. Because I don’t treat them like kids.

I imagine them as an adult. I, I fast forward to the 5-year-old, 10-year-old boy and I say, or girl and say, what do you like at 21? How do I get you to 21? That’s what I do when I teach kids. I can’t teach them at that age. Because they’re just annoying. Everybody is, is lying there that what I’m trying to do at that age is not get in their way.

Don’t, don’t change them if they’re, if they’re like loud, try to get them to quiet down, but don’t take the loud from [00:17:00] them, like that’s their voice or that’s their way. Right. Kids change so much, but people always try to correct them and then they’re, they always feel they can’t be who they want to be.

Feel that, right. Don’t take that from them. That’s the, that’s their gift that was given to them. So try to teach a kid and seeing how they’ll grow and connect the dots. That’s what a teacher should be doing, not just for kids, but for adults. The same thing. Kids are big men are just big babies. Come on.

They break. They’re all the, they’re all the same. You know?

Tim Melanson: Yeah, it’s funny. Yeah. You take

Emmanuel Manolakakis: for, we all are.

Tim Melanson: the adult and you take the adults and you treat ’em like the

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. Uh, 100%. And they love it. The, the adults are so tired of adulting. They’re so tired of it. They, they wanna play more. They’re tired of being right and wrong, and they, they just wanna play more for sure.

So,

Tim Melanson: So now you mentioned earlier that, uh, you know, when you get into, uh, you know, sports, music is the same. I mean, you, you, you get, you can practice all you want, but then you get into the, to the game or [00:18:00] whatever it is, and unexpected starts to happen, and all of a

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Oh yeah.

Tim Melanson: you know, everything you practice is not the same.

So how do you practice? How do you get ready for the unexpected?

Emmanuel Manolakakis: great, great. Absolutely, great question. So you, your training has to be like that. So I, I remember, uh, watching, so I, I did, I did quite a bit of bodyguard gigging as well, so I, I did a lot of close protection work, celebrities, musicians as well. I, I won’t say their names. I’m, I’m obligated not to, but I, I still remember one musician, uh, guitarist, great guitarist by the way.

And. Nowhere. He’s, I’m watching him, right? He’s on stage. There’s, I don’t even know how many people, I’ve never seen this many people. I couldn’t run a damn mic across that stage. It was so many, I, I mean, which I was scared to just walk across the stage. Forget about sing. This guy was in the middle. He was in a rift doing just, and I was just enrolled by the, by the music.

And all of a sudden he just stops. He turns and grabs another [00:19:00] guitar and continues away. And it was like, and then I look and he broke a string in the middle of a solo, and he just seamlessly, I, I just noticed that he turned around, which like, that’s kind of an odd time to be turning around and grabbing a new guitar.

Without a hesitation, your training has to, uh, you have to say to yourself, what can go wrong? So let’s give you a martial art example, or even in as an entrepreneur, you can pick your examples. You pick a problem. So I could be in a situation with a person, all of a sudden what appears to be one person comes to more people, all of a sudden there’s three people or two people I’m facing or more.

How do I deal with that now? What would I do now?

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Okay. Or all of a sudden, in the middle of everything, I, I hurt my hand, so now I can’t use my left hand. I can only use my right hand or. What happens if in the middle of this altercation somebody grabbed me from behind? Not even a bad person. It can just be a loved one trying to [00:20:00] pull me away from the fight, but doesn’t understand all that’s going on.

And that happens a lot. A lot of people in real situations, bodyguarding for sure, they don’t understand what’s happened because a bodyguard can see things much clearer. He is, that’s. He sees ahead of it. So most people are trying to calm things down, but the situation is escalating and we need to remove people and they don’t understand them.

So you have to look at those situations and and prepare for them. And you don’t have to freak out. You just have to say, what if? Okay, we do that. So I need to practice with one hand. I need to practice against three guys coming at me. I need to pro. What if a weapon comes out, okay, now I need to have some weapons training, and then.

You have to layer and it has to surprise you in training. Your training has to be organic like that. So if I was teaching a class, I’d be like, okay guys, um, you know, go on the ground and wrestle with each other, just one [00:21:00] person at any given moment. If somebody from another group feels like jumping onto the other group, they can. All of a sudden it’s a game. But what you’re doing is you’re preparing those people for things that will not go your way. That’s all. It’s, it’s not, I, I want all your listeners to understand this is an entrepreneur’s life. You, you have to plan everything can go wrong. Like the pandemic. Think about it. For me, the pandemic, I mean, as for martial arts, it was devastating.

Right. It was devastating, but I made it and I made it because I had really dedicated students. I got online, we trained outdoors, we figured it out right, and it was seamless for me. I didn’t hesitate at all. I, I didn’t. When things go wrong, right when they go wrong, they go wrong real quick, and you need a steady hand at that exact moment.

Right. Whether you’re a general in the military or whether you’re a [00:22:00] CEO at a business, you have to not be ready to be with cliches. You have to be ready to do the real work and, and be ready to adapt. Stay positive, but not false positive. Right. Not false positive. Right. Um, I had the luxury of training with quite a few, uh, military special forces and.

It’s, the stories they tell me are, are so funny. They’re not even scary. Like we’re talking about a unit that’s completely surrounded by the enemy and they’re pinned down. They’re waiting for help. They don’t know how long it’ll be. They’re just taking fire from all sides. Like there’s just no front.

There’s like, it’s all around. They’re completely surrounded. The only help is a helicopter that could come in and rescue them and it’s like a scene of a movie, but this was real. And they said, I go, God, what were you thinking? He goes, I don’t know. One guy started talking about how his wife is probably repainting their house.

Another one is probably saying how he’s probably trying to sell his car. Like I go, they’re just talking about normal things. Because it’s too [00:23:00] intense. We, you, you and, uh, I still remember that in my sports days we’d be talking about some of the funniest things in the middle of a quite serious game because it calms you down.

Right? And there’s a scene, there’s a scene in Saving Private Ryan, the movie where the unit was starting to fall apart towards the end of the movie. They were getting all over each other and that. And, you know, uh, Tom Hanks being the, the commander of that little unit that’s looking for, for private Ryan says, uh, to his sergeant, uh, what’s the, what’s the, the, the company had this toll, ’cause he didn’t say what job he did in his civilian.

So people started raise money to see when, if they reach him out the money, he’ll say what he does and he turns to the. To the, to the unit. And he says, uh, how much is the, the, the Tali? He

Tim Melanson: pod A.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: the pod, a couple hundred bucks. But he goes, he goes, I’m a teacher and everybody. Your teacher, like if for a moment it broke that [00:24:00] like, it, it, it normalized this thing, this craziness that is the war.

It normalized it for a second. It’s like he’s just, he’s a teacher and it brought them back to when they were civilians, they took them out of like this soldier mode of like constant pressure. So, um, a, an athlete that is at the highest level. Real high levels, not amateur levels. Amateur levels is different.

High levels, they, they don’t understand how to add pressure. They study how to remove pressure because too much pressure hurts them, much like a musician. What do they think about before they go on stage? They’re getting up, but they’re also calming down.

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Right. They’re also calming down. So, um, and I, I’ve watched this, you, for all your listeners, look at those people in the Olympics.

It’s a great event. Highest level, right? Pretty high. Pretty high level. Watch what a sprinter is doing before he is about to run or she’s about to run as fast as possible. They’re bouncing, they’re shaking out tension. They’re wiggling [00:25:00] their hands, they’re wiggling their feet, they’re trying to relax.

Nobody is saying they’re just trying to relax. And I’m the same under real pressure. I’m just trying to calm down and when I’m calm, that’s where my confidence lies. When I’m angry or tense, that’s where my fears go, and I don’t want to be in my fears. Right? There is a lot of things as a teacher that will piss you off and anger you.

Um, not just, not just the students. Lots of stuff life. Different obstacles that are put in your way as an entrepreneur, a lot of things will anger you. That is not where your best work lies. It’s not where your authentic work lies. The best a person can be is when they’re calm and relaxed. And it’s also, um, like I talked about, creative expression, right?

Creative expression is when you’re chill, man. That’s, that’s that. That’s when you come up with your song, that’s when you find a solution to this problem that is daunting, right? [00:26:00] So. I hope your listeners understand this. And so, as I was going along teaching martial arts, these threads were coming along.

Students were talking to me. You know, they were saying, oh my God, I, I’m going home showing my kids what you’re showing me. And I, I, I, I, they love it. I mean, you should start teaching kids, oh, I don’t teach kids. Oh my God, no. How, I can’t do this. I can’t do this. And then all of a sudden I sat down. What if I imagined them at 20 one’s so that I can do. Right. And then the fighting aspects of martial arts is an, is is another thing. Um, I, I can do that, but there came a point where I’m not really angry and the situations that I’m coming across don’t warrant a fight, but yet they are tough. So I realize that it’s inside your head. So we start working on, uh, mental training.

At that exact same time I was, I was doing very well in archery ’cause I was competing, I was still competing in archery competitions. And I realized how much of it is mental. And I really started to connect these dots. And I started showing a handful of [00:27:00] students this mental training that I go through.

And they loved it. It was, it was more important to them than the physical training. And I fully believe, um, that the future right now for all people. Going forward, past 2026 is gonna be a lot of, is being able to control your mind? That’s not a, is it? There’s just too much information, Tim, for all of us to be sitting here going that we can handle this.

This is like a crazy buffet. There’s no way we can eat all this food and people are trying to. And they’re just getting an upset stomach. They’re getting, they’re getting. And if people don’t believe me, just talk to any medical professional and look at the rise of A DHD drugs. Look at the, look at the rise of, of people that are going on, uh, medication for anxiety, for stress.

All of this is manageable. It’s just stop the information. Do, how much do we need? We have more information than a hundred years [00:28:00] ago. A president or prime Minister had, we have so much information. You don’t need more. You don’t. Last thing is you need more. If you wanna be happy for your listeners, you need less.

That doesn’t mean, that doesn’t mean be ignorant, doesn’t, doesn’t mean be ignorant or naive. It means you need less information and maybe more wisdom. Wisdom is the combination of I get some knowledge and then I practice, or I do that thing a lot and then I get a little bit more knowledge with a lot more action, and that becomes wisdom.

People just, they’re, this is, and this is not my opinion, this is the old Greek philosophers said this, they, they, they were the same, right?

Tim Melanson: Well, I think, I think, uh, I think you’re right. I mean, I mean this is a deep conversation that could go on forever, but, but I think that, I think that, uh, you know, back, you know, 30, 40 years ago, we really were only in contact with our bubble. And the, that bubble sort of [00:29:00] thought the same. We were sort of like similar.

And now with the social media and with the, the world becoming smaller, we’re exposed to everything all at once. And a lot of it

Emmanuel Manolakakis: In

Tim Melanson: the way we think. And people are getting triggered very, very quickly and focusing on the things they don’t like. Right.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Or they can’t control. Or they can’t

Tim Melanson: Or they can’t control. Yeah, exactly. And I think, I think that’s where it is.

I mean, when you, when you think about the people that are the happiest, it’s the people that just. Let it be, you know, whatever. I mean, they’re doing what they’re doing over there. It’s not really affecting, is it really affecting you? I think that that’s the thing is that they’re only being affected because they’re looking at it and they’re focusing on it.

Whereas before we didn’t even have the ability to see it. We might see it walking down the street, oh, I don’t like those people over there on the, you know, whatever, under the bridge, whatever it happens to be, and, and then they just kind of keep walking. But now it’s. It’s in your [00:30:00] hand, it’s on your screen, it’s everywhere, and you’re kind of going like, I hate that.

And, and people are not managing those triggers very well. So I think, I think, I think you’re, you’re into it. I think now is the time to figure out how to handle those triggers and, and, and not be triggered by it, right? Mm-hmm.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Yep. No, go ahead.

Tim Melanson: so let’s get into your solo a little bit. Let’s, let’s talk about what, uh, what’s exciting your business.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: For me now, it’s the. A shift from when I first started martial arts, a very physical thing. And, and it was great. I mean, I loved it like that as well, but I’m realizing more and more now that it’s the mental side and I’m just, I’m, I’m really digging, helping people manage that side. And they’re like, it’s, it’s so refreshing for people to understand that, um, wow.

Because let’s say to be physical, you gotta go somewhere. You might have to go to the gym, or you gotta go outside and go for a run. Or if you’re in a cycling, you gotta get on your bike. And mental training can be done anywhere. This is what’s great. Like you, you, you have 10 minutes. You can just [00:31:00] sit down and, and, and just, and focus like the, the research on visualization training, which is, you know, maybe long time ago has been, I mean, Pele was talking about that.

I mean, it’s nothing new, but it’s now it’s gone like 3D like visualization is kinda like, okay, me imagining doing a sport and positive outcomes and that being real. But now there’s just so much more to. To that kind of training people starting to understand how deep the mind is. Right. And I, even, me, I’m, I’m amazed that like, it’s not just left and right half of the brain, but it’s, it’s like.

Really maximizing, um, what we do with this thing. And I really see the connection, um, to happiness. I really see the connection to, uh, performing at your utmost best. Like I, I don’t even care about winning. At all winnings like subjective. There are some, there’s some Archer competitions I won, I didn’t deserve, and there’s some that I should have won that I didn’t.

Um, winning is, [00:32:00] is I care about performing at my best. Like when I go to teach. I don’t, the class might not have gone as good as I would’ve liked. Maybe the students didn’t understand the lesson as as good as I would’ve liked, but I know that I, I did my best. I can’t control how it will be understood and really.

Dissecting that, that there’s this idea that we have a powerful brain it, but it’s hard to walk around and just tell people, look at my beautiful brain. You know, it’s much easier to say, look at my six pack. Right? You, you know what I mean? Like, look at my big arms. The problem with inner work mind, like mind and the, and the spiritual stuff, like inside of us.

Nobody can see this, but that’s also what makes it so special. What, what makes your home so special? Nobody sees this. You invite people in and who comes into your house? Only the people that you trust, right? So the inner workings of your mind and, and your spirit. These are places that very special and we should treat them like that.

A long time [00:33:00] ago, I, I grew up in them. I’m a 69 baby, so I grew up like, you know, mostly in the eighties were my, my teen years and everybody in Scarborough and in Toronto in those days, you know, if you’re Greek, Italian, Portuguese, European, you had that nice room. This is, you only went in that room when it was like, you know, Easter, Christmas, you know, that was the good room.

You know, that was a very special place where you went to celebrate over. And, um, the mind is a very special place. It’s a place that only you go really, and, and you go there to find your authentic self, not to copy other people. So I’m really excited about the mental training. I, I think it’s, I think. As a society and as people living in Toronto, for me, my students, this is gonna be the hardest part of living in a big city.

Not the physical ability of it, it’s the mental. So helping them navigate that is, is really exciting. Me.[00:34:00]

Tim Melanson: Wow. So I, I’m d different, I, I, I know that because I talk to people and, and I have no problem being alone with myself and with my own thoughts. However, I hear that a lot of people do have a hard time with that and.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: I like how you said that. I hear,

Tim Melanson: I hear

Emmanuel Manolakakis: yeah.

Tim Melanson: so, uh, uh, I’m wondering, ’cause this might actually be scary to those people thinking, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don’t think I wanted to be doing that.

Or maybe they want might be pushing it away. What would you say?

Emmanuel Manolakakis: 10 minutes. Come on guys. 10 minutes. You can’t sit still like you. I, I hope everybody listens. Do you understand? If you can’t say, if you can’t sit still for 10 minutes, you under listen. In Scarborough, if you rode the bus back when I was, before I had my car, you’re on that bus for like 30 minutes.

There’s, there was nothing to do, guys. Okay. Like I, little did, I know I was practicing 30 minutes of mindfulness. I’m doing not, I was so progressive. Back [00:35:00] in the eighties, you had no cell phone? No. You just sat there, man. You just sat there and you guess what? You looked at everybody. You were mindful, oh, there’s a woman that’s pregnant coming up.

I got it. I should get up. Let a pregnant woman sit down. Or, oh, there’s an older person come up. I should get up. Or you, you just take 10 minutes, man, sit down and don’t look at your phone. Breathe and just observe the world. Just observe it. It it just 10 minutes. It is beautiful. It is beautiful, um, to do that.

And it starts with 10 minutes, and I don’t want anybody to do anything more. I, I did it long time ago and I, I quickly made it 20 minutes. Like you should never, like, I, even though me and you are talking to people now, we’re asked, we’re we’re telling ’em some stuff. I am not a guru. I am, I will present information.

I want everybody to test everything I say and if it’s, if it works and it’s good [00:36:00] for you, please continue it.

Tim Melanson: Love it.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Come on. Like eat some good food. I dare anybody to have a little bit of cabbage with their meal, a dinner for a week straight, just a little bit of cabbage, and watch how their gut will feel. Great. Tell me you don’t. If you don’t like that feeling, well then go back to eating whatever you’re eating. So read something past something, eat something. Try some training to anybody that doesn’t understand how beautiful it feels to go for a 15 minute walk after you have dinner. If that doesn’t feel good, don’t do it. But I will. I will guarantee you, you’ll, you’ll enjoy it. That’s a wonderful practice. Very simple. So I’m all about starting very small. Letting things grow and enjoying it. Just like you’re planting a seed. Let it grow. Don’t, you don’t have to yell at it,

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: let it, let it grow.

Tim Melanson: So how do we find out more about you then?

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Uh, for me it’s really simple. I have, well, I have a book I’ve written, so if people [00:37:00] want, you can go, you’ll find on Amazon, it’s called Eudemonia the Highest Human Good. By a manual I’ll, I’ll, I’d be happy to. Uh, so it’s on Amazon, eudemonia is the name. Um, they can also go to my website. There’s fight club.ca and there’s another website I started off just after the pandemic, which is a lot more the personal growth, personal development.

Um, it’s called Masters method ca. And I’ve kind of put all my kind of more mental training. There because it seemed like there’s a, a different group of people that not necessarily want martial arts, but do want to want that training without the punches and kicks, which I get right. It’s not for everybody, right?

Not everybody’s a martial artist in a physical sense, but we definitely need, it feels like being a martial artist, living in, living in our society these days. We’re wrestling with so many issues.

Tim Melanson: Nice.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: is, there is that side of it, right? Um, yeah, those are, those are definitely the ways of, of getting in touch with me and just, um, I, [00:38:00] I want to thank you as well for putting me on the podcast.

It’s, it’s, it’s a wonderful way and for all the entrepreneurs listening, um, be adaptable. Find some authenticity. It’s not easy. I know it’s not. You’ve gotta sit quietly. You gotta go back into your history and look at what you did. Talk to your mother if you can. What did you do as a kid? How were you? Stay close to those things, right?

If I can do it as a martial artist, if I can literally play while I’m training, even when I’m fighting, because all of a sudden I’m very authentic. I’m not doing things I regret.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Because it’s, it’s like me to do everything I do. So please find a way. If I can do it in fighting, you can find it in your, in your business and in your personal life as well.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. One more question before I go. Who’s your favorite

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Yes. Oh man, you got so many. I rockstar. I, so I grew up in the eighties, so I listened to all kinds of music back then. It’s really hard. Uh, but I did watch the Rise of Rap [00:39:00] and I’m not a big rapper, but I watched it like NWA Public Enemy and I was like. What the hell is this? Like, it’s like you had Bon Jovi, you had, you had, uh, you know, Michael Jackson, you had you this, and then there was this thing that was like so different.

And then to watch the evolution of that music. And how it’s transformed. Um, I don’t think I, ’cause I can’t say saw that with country or blues or, I, I didn’t see that, but I was, you know, I was literally, that was exactly when I was a teenager and I still remember the people blaring some of that public enemy or, and it was like, what the, we were shocked.

That was like a, a very different type of music. So I think that one is the one that really sticks in my mind. It really, it’s, it’s, it’s really to watch something from the beginning and watch it.

Tim Melanson: Expand.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Expand, like, and, and the characters, and some of them are still around, which is, you know what I mean, like [00:40:00] Jay-Z and all these guys, they’re still around.

And to watch them mature, you know, same with Mike Tyson. I, I grew up boxing and, and he was the guy. And to watch him now what a, what a change. What a changed man, what a changed person, you know? Pretty awesome.

Tim Melanson: Love that. Well, thank you so much for rocking it with me today, Emmanuel. This has been a lot of fun.

Emmanuel Manolakakis: Man, been a lot of fun. Thank you so much, Tim.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. And to the listeners, make sure you go to, you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information. We’ll see you next time on the Work At Home Rockstar Podcast.

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar Podcast. Today I’m talking to the CEO of Catalyst Growth Advisors, and what he does is he helps leaders take the guesswork outta growth. Excited to hear more about that. So we are rocking out today with Bill Flynn. Hey, Bill, you ready to rock?

Bill Flynn: Ready to rock.

Tim Melanson: Love it. We always start off on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

Bill Flynn: Yeah, well, um, we do good and, and actually your good and your bad note are in the same story. So can I, can I do that?

Tim Melanson: they often are.

Bill Flynn: Okay. So, um, the reason I do what I do today is because of this story. I, uh, so I did, uh, I’ve, I’ve done 10 startups here in the Boston area over about 25 years, all in high tech and, um. Between start of five and six, I was asked by my then wife and daughter, do I need to do another one right away? ’cause they, you know, they take a lot of time and energy and, and things and, and I had done pretty well. I was, I [00:01:00] was, uh, I think four for five at that time. Uh, and. Uh, so I said, no, I don’t. I, so I, I took time off.

I spent a lot more time with my daughter. She was, um, like seven or eight, something like that. And, um, one I, but I was still known in the area and people heard that I was now free. And so I would get calls and can you come help me and do this and do that? So one of the calls was from an old, um, um, CFO friend of mine, and he was doing a fractional gig with a, with an email hosting company.

And he said, you really gotta help this guy. You know, he’s really struggling and whatever. So I met with him. I said, uh, yeah, I’m happy to help. Uh Uh I’m expensive and I only work Monday through Thursday between 10 and two. I said,

can you do that while I’m sort of off off? Right.

Uh. Because, you know, I wanna drop my daughter off at school, then I go work out, then I go pick her up and we do stuff and whatever.

So, so, uh, that was great. I did that. Um, he [00:02:00] eventually, he said, look, I wanna sell the company. I’ve been doing this for a whole bunch of years. I’m tired. Uh, I just wanna, can you help me? Make me look as big as you possibly can so I can get as much money outta this as I possibly can. So I’m like, great. So we. You know, hired a bunch of people, put together some, some strategy and, and some frameworks and stuff. And about a year later he got bought for a good amount of money, enough for him to never have to work again. Uh, and then I was asked to take over, uh, so this was 2008 and, uh, my first official day as what would be general manager, uh, was, uh, January 4th, 2009. And I like to describe it as the best and the worst day of my professional life, which is sort of the good, the good and the bad note

together. Uh, we didn’t deliver email to anyone for about two and a half days because the entire technical infrastructure that he had built, and I had been working with him and collapsed on itself due to the volume that it wasn’t ready to handle. [00:03:00] So the company that bought us knew that the system needed to be upgraded, et cetera, but you know, they didn’t realize it needed to be done that quickly. And so they were sort of taking care of that. But I had 60 people working for me, thousands of customers. Uh, so I’m like, you know, what do I need to do? I need to fix this and sort of help all these people. And, um, I, I had a bunch of good CEOs that I had worked with in the previous years. I’ve been a big fan of business anyway, I’ve been reading. For years, decades. And so I had all sort of these ideas, so I’m like, all right, well let’s give ’em a go. And so I basically cobbled together a system. And for those of you, and you may know this, Tim, uh, there’s a system out there called EOS. And, um, I basically made my own EOS because I wasn’t smart enough to know that it was already out there. So I made my own and it worked fabulously, uh. You, you can look at, you can look at my LinkedIn and see all the wonderful stats that I have up there. You know, we doubled the size of the business in about two years and I didn’t lose any of those [00:04:00] 60 people. Um, we increased the average order size. You know, we had customer stats scores that, you know, were, started off lousy of course, and then really good. But the best part was this, I sort of, um. I had a team and then I inherited a bunch of people and you know, none of us had been through this sort of disaster before, and some of them hadn’t really been leaders of anything before. Uh, so I said to them, look, uh, we need to figure this out. We have all these people relying on us. I said, look, I don’t, I’m technically adept, but I don’t know how to run a network infrastructure. I’ve never run customer support before. I’m not a finance guy said, but. You know, so I, you know, I need you guys and I can’t really tell you what to do ’cause I don’t know what to do.

But I can tell you sort of what I would like it to look like when we’re done and would love to discuss debate and decide that with you. And then I need each of you to then say, okay, if that’s sort of our ultimate goal, what’s your piece of it? And I need you to sort of draw me the map from where we are. To where, what you need to get to, where you [00:05:00] want to be, and then we’re gonna work together to, to do that. Um, and you know, as I said, it worked fabulously well. Uh, and so about 18 months later, I left to go do the next startup, which would’ve been startup six, I guess. And two of the guys came up to me and they kind of said the same thing to me when I was always leaving was, I just want you to know, bill, that thing you made me do that roadmap, you made me create, hated it.

It was really, really hard, but I’m so glad you made me do it because now I know how to do this right? It’s sort of like sort of a teach ’em to fish kind of thing. Um, so that really sprung me into what I do now, which is I, I now do that with other leaders. I teach them. How the best businesses in the world work, because by the way, they all work kind of the same way at a certain level. And so that’s sort of what I do and I love what I do. It’s a calling. I wish I, I wish I had been doing it longer. I’ve been doing about 10 years. It’s just a blast. Um, time flies when I work with my clients, you know, I, [00:06:00] it’s, uh, it pays really well. So it’s, uh, so that’s my good note and my bad note.

Tim Melanson: So what did you learn from the bad note, I guess?

Bill Flynn: Uh, uh, what I learned is that most leaders, uh, don’t know what they’re doing. It’s not their fault. Uh, they’re being taught the wrong things.

There’s a huge gap between what science knows and what business does. Um, we make lots of mistakes. We don’t make big, huge mistakes very often, but we make. Little ones that just add

up and it makes our lives so much harder than they really need to be.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, the compound effect, right?

Bill Flynn: Yeah, exactly.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. If it was a big mistake, you’d notice it right away.

Bill Flynn: Yeah.

Yeah. You know, you, you hire that one person that, you know, they looked good and then all of a sudden, you know, nobody likes ’em and they don’t work and then, and then you don’t do anything about it. And then they start hiring people. It’s like, it just becomes an issue. That’s just one [00:07:00] of many things that we do. Uh, and because, you know, we were taught to, you know, to hire for skill and knowledge, and that’s not the way you should hire a loan, right? You said yes, that’s important, but to be honest with you, it’s less important than hiring them for belief and, and fit,

uh, values. Uh, you can teach ’em skills and knowledge, but you can’t teach ’em how to be, how out of integrity or honesty or whatever.

Tim Melanson: I can’t agree more than that. That’s, that’s actually something that has come up many times on the, on the show where people will make hires based on the, you know, picking the best of the best and it just ends up not being a very good fit. Um, but like, what about friends? Should you hire friends?

Bill Flynn: Uh, you can, but you know, it’s gonna test your friendship. Especially if they work for you. Um, so what happens is I hire people and then, then they become friends,

and then I hire ’em again. Right. But, but we know, like the dynamic, right? We know that, you know, I [00:08:00] have certain style, I do certain things and you know, my style is basically to, to set direction and then. To say, Hey, great. Do, do what you do and then tell me if you need me.

Right? I’m gonna check on you every now and again. I, you know, I’ve been calling it eyes on, hands off leadership, right? Is, is, you know, I’m gonna keep an eye on things, making sure things are going well, but I’m gonna keep my hands out of it unless something happens and I need to, but, you know, uh, so so that works. But if you don’t set that up ahead of time, you know, there’s gonna be, it could be difficult.

Tim Melanson: So then what are some of the, I guess, processes that you put in place to avoid some of those mistakes that you know led to your bad note?

Bill Flynn: Yeah. Well, how long is your show?

Tim Melanson: So that’s a

whole course then.

Bill Flynn: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So at, but at a high level, uh, the thing that I’ve learned over 30 years of, of, of research and business and really intensely in the last 10, you know, I, I might be the world expert in what I do. I don’t know, [00:09:00] uh, ’cause I’ve been studying business from multiple perspectives for about 10 years and. Uh, not only just, you know, business itself, but you know, neuroscience and behavioral and social psychology and all of these things that go along with running a great business because I found that there are three things that seem to be the, the biggest factors in whether you have not a business that survives, but a business that thrives. Uh, and there are few of them. There aren’t that many. Uh, there are outliers, but it’s doable. Uh, and it’s, and it’s been proven over and over again. So it’s, it’s not like we can’t do it, but as I said earlier, we just don’t. Um, and that is, uh, so, so there’s a, there’s a methodology called scaling Up. That I use as a foundation.

Some of your listeners may know what it is, and, and there are four decisions that they talk about, which are people, strategy, execution, and cash. And so people is the most important, but people is three different things. It’s the individual, it’s the team, and it’s the culture of those three [00:10:00] team is far more important than either of the other two

Tim Melanson: Okay.

Bill Flynn: because most people are on a team. And most people will stay in a horrible culture if they’re on a great team and actually will leave a great culture if they’re on a bad team. So the team is really the core of what you do and, and we never teach people how to be great team leaders. We put ’em in charge. But we don’t teach them how, you know, what it worked, how, how do you attract and, and dev and craft and then develop and exit people from a team. We don’t teach any of that. And that’s sort of what I do as well. So that’s one big factor is this team factor is huge. Then you have to have some sort of system, right. Um, running a business. Uh, so a business is a system, but it’s not just any kind of system. It’s what’s called a complex adaptive system like the human body or a city, uh, et cetera.

These are complex. There are so many factors that are involved that affect the system, and [00:11:00] there’s no way to just sort of say, this is it, and we’re done, because then something changes and then, you know, the system is affected. So you have to understand that, that this, you have to sort of run it like that, but you should have one. Right. You should run your business in a systematic way, which most people don’t. Um, they do the, they make the same decision over and over again. You know, they, they, they solve the problem and never say, well, what caused that problem? And we

should solve that so it

doesn’t happen. And go back to the root.

You know, there’s just so many things that we don’t do ’cause we’re busy and whatever. Um, so, so you have to have some sort of system. Uh, I, I teach a system. I call it the performance operating system. It’s to me, for me, the, I cobbled together the best parts of all the things that I’ve learned. Uh, and it seems relatively unique, but it’s really based on Drucker Deming, sche McGregor, Bennis, Porter Edmondson.

It’s, you know, all these management science people that have been around for a hundred years, really. Um, and then the last thing is, if you wanna measure how well you’re doing. [00:12:00] Revenue and profit are not your measurement. Cash is your measurement. If you wanna grow a business, cash is your primary financial metric. Why? Because it’s the only thing that won’t lie to you on your p and l or your balance sheet. You can, you know, certainly have revenue that is, you know, vanity, right? But it doesn’t mean you’re running a great business. Profit is great, but you can fool yourself on profit. You can move money around and seem profitable and whatever.

Or you can actually grow. In such a way that you grow broke, right? You’re growing and the profit’s there, but the profit, the cash is too far behind the growth. So you grow broke, uh, because you’ve grown so fast, you actually put yourself out of business, right? So those are the three things you need, team, some sort of system, and then cash.

If you focus on those three things and optimize those three things, you’re in the best possible position to have a thriving company.

Tim Melanson: Wow, that’s amazing. Wow. So much gold. So quickly. Well done. Uh, I have a question though about, ’cause you mentioned so many startups that you [00:13:00] started up and uh, you know, I know a lot of entrepreneurs kind of do a bunch of different things, but I think. Probably it’s more normal that they do a bunch of things because the fir, the, the first thing failed and then they go to something else and they go to something else.

Um, but I talk to more people more often that have that one business that they’ve been doing forever because now it works. Right. W when you go into those businesses, did you go into them initially with the intent that you were gonna be leaving at some point or. Did it just, you created these systems and then it was just easy to leave.

Like what? What was the mindset going into them?

Bill Flynn: Yeah, so, um. You know, you hear, uh, these things like what’s your superpower or your zone of genius or whatever, right? And we have all these wonderful little phrases for stuff. Um, but to me it’s really the thing that lights you up or turns you on or whatever, you know, gets your juices, whatever that thing is.

Right? And for me it’s puzzles.

I just love [00:14:00] puzzles. Uh, I have a brain that just loves puzzles, right? And, and so I do puzzles all over. I mean, I, I have the New York Times. You know, crossword and, and app and I do all, all those things. You know, a startup is just a big puzzle. You know, I love Mensa questions and stuff like that really challenged me.

I love watching detective shows and trying to figure out, you know, as I go, like, what’s, what’s gonna happen? And I love it when I don’t, right? It’s even, uh, because it’s fun. It’s like, ah, I never, that’s a cool way to do it. Um, so, so that’s what got me into it. Um. And so what happens when you’re good at puzzles and you, and you’re good at startups, uh, the people who know that want you to do the another one.

Tim Melanson: Uh,

Bill Flynn: So like, so you like, you know, you get an

IPO or you get an acquisition and they’re like, you know, great. Now do this one, right? And, and can you make us some more money? And all that kind of stuff. So that’s sort of what happens is you get sort of into this thing. I don’t necessarily go into a thing, I’m gonna leave at any particular time, but. You know, when it becomes routine, it is, it’s, there’s less puzzle there, right? It’s

your, you know, there is some puzzle, there’s always a puzzle, you know, [00:15:00] people are puzzles. I mean, we’re crazy by default and, you know, and sort of all that. And I find that fascinating. Um, but I do like the figuring out parts.

So, um, now I get to do it. I’m not doing startups, but I’m, I’m sort of going into a company and I’m helping them figure it out,

right? So it’s a new thing every time with them. Uh, so that’s sort of. That’s sort of the, the, the, the way I’ve approached it so far.

Tim Melanson: Wow. I really like that. And you know, I think, oh, oh, well that’s the thing. Once you solve a puzzle, it’s solved. It’s not fun anymore. Right. Like quote unquote. And you know, I don’t know if this is too deep or not, but maybe what you said earlier about how most entrepreneurs or most business people don’t.

Look at why the problem happened. They just keep on solving the problem as they happen. Maybe that’s why maybe they don’t wanna solve the puzzle. Maybe they don’t wanna leave. Right? They want it. They want it to keep on living in that chaos,

Bill Flynn: Could be. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you

Tim Melanson: least subconsciously.

Bill Flynn: chaos. Yeah. Who knows? I mean, there are some, they love the drama, right. And, and whatever they feed off of that. Um, most [00:16:00] entrepreneurs I know don’t,

Tim Melanson: No. No.

Bill Flynn: they would, they would rather it be, you know, a, a little less hard

because, you know, it makes your life more difficult.

And, you know, you don’t, you don’t, you don’t want to have your, your work. Be your whole life, right? Is, is, you know, we talk about work-life balance and I don’t think that’s a thing at all. There’s no balance in work and life, right? It’s, it’s, you know, sometimes one pull thing pulls you in the other and you have to integrate them, right?

So the integration is important, um, but you’ll never have balance. Uh, and, but especially if you are, if you are sucked into what I call the, sort of the tyranny of the moment, right? This is a problem that most leaders have is they get sucked into the tyranny of the moment and there are lots of them, and they feed off of that, right?

Is is that actually they like being the solver and the decider and

whatever. But then they don’t create, you know, they don’t, I have this concept, uh, that, that’s in my next book, which is [00:17:00] sort of the, the, the hero trap, right? We have this trap that we like to be the hero. And, and by the way, you know, especially in western culture, individualism and all that is, it’s part of our thing, right?

Is the hero is, is all lauded. Um. But in a business it doesn’t work. ’cause, ’cause the hero doesn’t scale. At some point you run out of hours in a day or brain cells or whatever. Right? So, uh, this concept I’ve come up with is, you know, you have to sort of, sometimes it’s good to be a hero. You have to be the hero. You have a particular skill or there’s the house is on fire or whatever. You gotta go in and just do. Right? Um, but it, but if you just do and then go onto the next thing, then. The house will catch fire a different way, and then you’ll have to go do it again. So, you know, it’s like once you do that, you should then teach and say, okay, here are the people that need to know, here’s what I did, here’s how I fixed it, you know?

And so now they’re learning at least how you do it, right? So there’s this controller, which is the hero, then there’s builder, right? So the controller is [00:18:00] iol. The builder is I teach, and then the architect, which is really what you want to scale because that is infinite in scale, is, is I build systems that make me unnecessary for the running of the business. Uh, and that is what you drive towards. So this is Reed Hastings at Netflix. Um, uh, uh, this is um, Jeff Bezos at Amazon. You know, pick your. You know, company that has grown crazy in the last 10, 15, 20 years. These are architects. They’ve built systems that don’t need them for the day to day ’cause they’re looking out into the future.

And that’s what you should be doing.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and that is a superpower and that is something that I think is missing. Misunderstood by the majority of the population. You know, thinking that these guys make way too much money or whatever it is, and maybe they do, right? Uh,

do they need that many billions? I don’t know. But on the other hand, that is a superpower.

I mean, [00:19:00] they have been able to do something that very few people are able to do. Otherwise, everybody be doing it right.

Bill Flynn: Yeah. Yeah. And so very few people are architects, right. And, and you’re not, so it’s, it’s not like you’re one or the other. Some you have to don the, the identity, depending on what you need. Right? Sometimes Jeff Bezos had to go in and. Do something right. But, but he never stopped at that. He said, okay, you know what happened here?

And, and eventually, ’cause those of you know, like there’s 14 principles in the Amazon system. And now Jassy, who’s the new CEO, he runs like six Fortune 500 companies

on his own. How can you do that? I mean, they’re all worth billions and billions of dollars each, but he runs them as he’s the, he’s the CEO of all of them,

uh, because Bezos and the team and et cetera put all that in place over, you know, years and decades.

So he can, I.

Tim Melanson: It’s fascinating to think about it that way. Really. I mean, you, you’d almost think that in a way, these people are lazy [00:20:00] because they’re trying to figure out ways to make their company work without them. If they get pulled into something, they’re like, I need to figure out a way to not be pulled into this again.

And, and, uh, it’s

just, it’s just, interesting how that works. ’cause I mean, that’s probably why he’s able to run so many different companies because he doesn’t need to be pulled in very often. He is figured out how to, how, how to replace himself, right?

Bill Flynn: Exactly. Yeah. There’s, there’s a, there’s a Prussian General, and I can’t remember his name, Vaughn something or other, and he said, you know, what kind of offices do you look for? He says, I want lazy and clever officers. Right? ’cause I want them to, to be smart enough to know, you know, that, that their job is to not. Do a lot of stuff. Right. Uh, and that’s what you’re kinda looking for, right? That’s what a, a lazy and clever leader is probably the best kind of leader you want. ’cause they’re constantly, I, I was, it’s funny I did that with, I, I said that to once to a VC person and she said, you know, tell me about, you know, what you do.

And I said, well, I’m basically lazy. And she like, she looked at me and it’s like, you know, that’s a bad thing. And it’s like, no, no. I said, here’s why I’m late. I said, I don’t, you know, my job is to create an environment where I’m not necessary.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.[00:21:00]

Bill Flynn: Because if I’m a leader of the company, my job is not the running of the company.

It is at the beginning, but it’s to figure out, like whenever I started as a VP of sales, I would, I would be the sales guy, right? And I would do, but I’m learning, right? And I’m learning, you know, how does this work? And, and so what kind of salesperson do I need to hire to replace me? Uh, and then I can teach them like how I do sales and how I think, and all the, you know, ’cause I generally had an unusual way of doing sales, um, which really worked really well. Um, that’s why I would teach them when I do that, but then I’m like, you know, go, you know, let me know if you need me.

Tim Melanson: Love

Bill Flynn: Um, and, and they were all different. Like one was really relationship oriented. One was a, technically was a perfect technical salesperson, you know, I’m like, I don’t care how you do it. I have two rules.

Be honest and responsible. As long as you follow those rules, do it any way you want, you know? So

Tim Melanson: The world is changing really quickly right

now, and especially with something like AI coming in and, uh, that comes up quite often on the [00:22:00] show. Uh, I’m wondering, you know, how do you think that changes the role of the CEO or the business owner?

Bill Flynn: Yeah. So, uh, you bring this up. It’s interesting. So, um, there’s this term, uh, that we used to be in, which was called vuca, a VUCA environment. Are you familiar with this?

Tim Melanson: Nope.

Bill Flynn: Volatile, uncertain complex, and I forget what the A is. Um, and this was sort of like, hey, this was, came outta the war college here in the United States, you know, this is how leaders had to be thinking about this.

You know, the, the rules of war have changed.

You have to understand it, be adaptive and you know, et cetera. Um, and we’re no longer in that. And actually we’re moving from that to what’s called banney, which is a brittle, anxious, non-linear and incomprehensible.

And the, the poster child example of this is Silicon Valley Bank. I dunno if you’re familiar with what happened with Silicon Valley Bank, but, but $425 [00:23:00] billion was withdrawn in 24 hours

Tim Melanson: Wow.

Bill Flynn: because the leader did what he always did. Like he, he shared with his, um, team and with the world, Hey, something’s happening. We’re fixing it. And he’d let everyone know. And then Peter Thiel didn’t like it. And so he said, I’m taking my money out and so should all of you. And because you could just get on your phone and just withdraw billions of dollars. They, you know, just, and he didn’t do anything differently than he hadn’t done for the previous 40 years. But all of a sudden, you know, people were anxious.

You know, he thought he had a system that worked, but it was brittle. And then the incomprehensible happened. You know, this one little thing, which could have been fixed in a basically two months, they would’ve fixed it sunk the bank.

Now they’re owned by some retail bank in North Carolina.

Tim Melanson: Wow.

Bill Flynn: Yeah,

Tim Melanson: Wow.

Bill Flynn: crazy. And, and [00:24:00] actually, um, my partner works for Silicon Valley Bank and while we were in Mexico, all this was happening. So I got a first row seat to everything that was going on that first week. It was crazy.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Yeah, so this is probably a little alarming to to many people

that,

Bill Flynn: AI is just exacerbating it, right? AI is another factor in this. You know, like how, how can this, you know, all these things that it now can do, um, you know, how well or not is a whole other thing, but, you know, how do I incorporate it? You know, it’s just another factor. It’s just an accelerant. And so that’s why you have to build your systems and it’s not, you can’t really plan.

You can certainly plan. And have a plan, but know that your plan could change at any moment. So what you need to do is not rely on the plan, but rely on your ability to adapt quickly.

Those people will be the ones who survive, not the ones who are like, we got a plan, it’s five years, you know where we’re going and we’re just charging ahead and we’re just gonna put our blinders on, [00:25:00] and whatever. You know, that’s Blockbuster and Nokia and Kodak and you know, the dust, dust, spin of technology.

Tim Melanson: Well, and, and I, I see a lot of that right now because, I mean, as AI is making its way in, I, I don’t know what it’s gonna look like in a few years. I’m a tech guy and so I do follow this stuff, and who knows? I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of a alarming stuff. There’s a lot of exciting stuff, but whatever it is.

E Either way, it’s going to change how we do life in the next little while, just as drastically as how the internet has changed how we did life from then to, to when the internet came. Uh, however, the speed at which things change is going much, much quicker. And so I think that what I am seeing is I’m seeing this divide of people that are embracing.

And, you know, going full steam, maybe even too fast. [00:26:00] And then there is a group of people resisting. And I, I think probably the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. If, if you totally dug, dug your head in the sand, you might end up being a blockbuster. That just didn’t

see that things were changing. Right.

Uh, however, if you, if you go too quickly, you, you might end up failing for the opposite reason. Now you’re actually letting AI run your business for you, which may not do a very good job. Right. Is that how you see it too, or?

Bill Flynn: Yeah, so I would say it is sort of like, like you’re crossing the street and you see that the signs is, is. Says go. And it’s like, oh, I trust that it’s always been right, et cetera. But you know what, sometimes someone doesn’t see the light and while you’re focused on the thing, you get run over.

Right. So, you know, I think putting your head in the sand is, is dumb.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Bill Flynn: Right? It’s, you know, and, and you sort of catastrophize like it’s gonna take over and Terminator and all this kind of

stuff and, you know, is that a possibility? I guess so. [00:27:00] You know, but it’s, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s something, it’s not the reason to not do it. Right, because we, we have been in fear of so many things in the past that yes, they caused problems, you know, but we’ve, we found ways around them and we figured it out as a human, as a human being, you know, will we exterminate ourselves?

I don’t know. Right? But we haven’t so far, and so we know it, it has so many more useful ways of, of making our lives better and easier. And, you know, I gotta tell you, uh, I don’t like writing and I’m an, I’m a writer. And now I can write much better. ’cause I, I love editing.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, me

Bill Flynn: So I say, you know, here’s all my writing that I’ve done for 10 years now I wanna write a book about this, this, and whatever.

So gimme some words and then I’ll change ’em, you know, make sure they look like me. And I’ve written six books in like six months. Uh, and I get the first one’s gonna get the, the next one is gonna get published in October. Right. And I, I, I never would’ve written a book ever again. If I didn’t have Claude or chat GPT or [00:28:00] whatever, you helping me. So it has so many wonderful things. It just makes, it just takes a lot of the, the, the the harder stuff that’s unnecessary, uh, and automates it. But it also augments, right? I mean, I have great debates with, and ai, you know, I’m talking about politics and religion and, you know, and I learned something about the brain.

I’m like, Hey, doesn’t this work? I just, today I’m on the way to a client. And I’m learning about how, uh, epigenetics causes our systems to, uh, for trauma to be, um, adopted by the next generation. And it’s physically a, a change in the genome of the genes, how they’re expressed in the next generation. So. You know, maybe that’s why they’re more anxious or have these other issues. And I’m like, well, how does that work with DNA and, and you know, and, and Darwinian Rev evolution and, you know, and, and you know, it’s, I get to like just ask a quick question and it’s like, and I learned all about, oh, it’s really not the same. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s similar but it generally dies out. You know, it’s certainly an issue, but [00:29:00] it’s, it doesn’t change your code. You know, I never would’ve been able to do that before. I did it in five minutes while I’m driving.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Bill Flynn: I mean, that’s cool.

Tim Melanson: It is very cool. I, and I think that that part there, the voice activated stuff is the coolest of it all. ’cause I mean, I’m a, I’m a great researcher. I love using the internet. Uh, however. Can’t do that when you’re driving or when you’re taking on on a walk. You can’t bring your laptop with you everywhere you go.

But I mean, just to have a headset in or have it on your, on your car and just be driving around and having these conversations as though you have access to all the information ever is mind blowing to me. And

it definitely allows us to grow much, much quicker. Right.

Bill Flynn: It does, it does, you know,

but you gotta be careful, right? As I just say, I say, so I’ve got four tools that I use. I use Grok Chat, PT, uh, Claude, and, um, Gemini. And I actually use ’em against each other, right? I’m like, I heard this over here. I’m like, you know, tell me why this is wrong and uh, et cetera, you know?

Uh, but I describe it, it’s, you remember, it’s a [00:30:00] 14-year-old precocious boy who’s on drugs and hallucinates and lies on a regular basis.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Bill Flynn: You have to know that, and don’t just accept its first answer,

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Bill Flynn: but if you do challenge it, et cetera, it’s, you know, it, it, it has no, it has no emotion. Right? So you’re just like, you know, that’s not right.

You know? Or where did you come up with that? I’ve told that all I, I, I, I joke right regularly with it. I’m like, I, I’m, I say I’m writing a nonfiction series of books. Stop making things up, right? Because I’ll say, where’d you get that stat from? What do you mean? Like, can you, can you gimme the source? Oh, there’s no source.

I made it up. Like, no, that’s not how it works. But,

you know, this is honest. Right? It’s like I made it up. Like I said, stop doing that. Gimme, gimme some content that is not a lie. And we’ll, we’ll throw that in.

Tim Melanson: and we can’t hurt

his feelings, even though we’d like to sometimes

Bill Flynn: Oh, I’ve

sworn at it a couple times. Oh. One time I remember a clot, I was just getting totally frustrated ’cause it was coming up with the same thing.

I’m like, and it would say, I, [00:31:00] I would ask it, tell me what I need to tell you so I can get what I need and then I’ll tell it and it doesn’t do it anyway.

And then I had sworn enough times into it, it came up with a thing. Uh, it maybe we should take a break this box. I’m like, oh, hilarious. It’s like, there must be some code in there that says, okay, if they swear you three times in a row. Tell him to go get a sip cup of water and hang out for a minute.

Tim Melanson: That’s brilliant. Oh, I love it. So let’s talk a little bit about, uh, about getting fans. ’cause I mean, another part of the world has changed. I mean, social media’s taken over everything. I mean, everything is different now, and I’m, I’m actually wondering even just from your experience, how is it different getting fans now as opposed to maybe 10, 20 years ago?

Bill Flynn: So mechanically it’s different, but fundamentally it is not.

Tim Melanson: Perfect.

Bill Flynn: It’s exactly the same. So, um, [00:32:00] there’s a, uh, theory called Jobs to Be Done. Are you familiar with this?

Tim Melanson: Uh, no.

Bill Flynn: Okay. So it’s been around about 30, 35 years. You are familiar with it because you’ve seen it in action. Uh, have you seen the Snickers commercials?

Tim Melanson: I have.

Bill Flynn: That is a jobs to be done model. So, uh, one of the gentlemen who was the progenitor of jobs to be done was hired by the company who, who makes Snickers. And they said, look, you know, we’re, we’re just trying to grow the business, et cetera. And he said, okay, great, I’ll do some research. And he said, look, the, your, the people who buy Snickers the most don’t see Snickers the same as they see Milky Way. Milky Way is an indulgence to them. It’s like cups, cookies, and cupcakes and whatever. Snickers is a food substitute. That is why they buy it, for whatever reason. Right? Some irrational reason of all this. Sugar and candy, whatever is a food substitute,

but that’s how they see it. So that’s why they changed it [00:33:00] to satisfaction. Right. And they have tripled the sales of Snickers. Because they understand why someone buys the thing. Right? Um, and there’s another, there’s, uh, even more famous, uh, example. Uh, Clayton Christensen, who was a Harvard Business professor and is one of the, he’s the, the, the creator of the theory. He took the work and made it a theory.

So a theory is something that you can apply to anything

and it works, right? The Pareto principle is a theory, right? 80 20 rule, right? And you apply it to your closet, to your friends, to your food. It’s pretty much true, right? 80%. If you have a hundred friends, you see 20 of them, way more than you see the other 80.

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Bill Flynn: All the things you eat, the clothes you wear in your closet, you wear the same clothes most often,

right? So, uh, so this theory, uh, was applied to McDonald’s, right? So McDonald’s was, hi hired Clayton Christensen’s, um, consulting firm and said, look, we wanna sell more milkshakes, [00:34:00] you know, can you help us? We here, you might be able to help us.

He said, sure. What? Here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna observe for a day. And so they, they, they observed the whole whatever, 20 hours that this thing was open, and they said, here’s what we found out, that 80% of your milkshakes are purchased before 8:00 AM and between three and 5:00 PM. And they’re like, really?

Like, yeah. So they went the next morning and, and asked a bunch of people, what did you hire this milkshake to do for you? Right? Because that’s what we do. We hire products. And services to fulfill a job for us. And when they fulfill a job, we keep hiring them. And when they don’t, we fire ’em and hire something else.

So they found out that the ones in the morning said, I have a really long commute. It’s super boring and I’m not hungry when I wake up, but I know I’m gonna be hungry before I get to work. So I stop off, I get a milkshake and it, it’s super thick. It takes me like 20 minutes to [00:35:00] drink the whole thing. And I, by the time I get to work, I, you know, I can make it through to lunch.

Tim Melanson: Huh.

Bill Flynn: and they said, well, what else have you hired in the past to do this? They’re like, oh, you know, I hired a banana, but you know, the peel gets all over my hands and it gets, sticks on the wheel and tired. A bagel with cream cheese, but you know, it’s dangerous. And you know, the thing, crumbs go everywhere and I’m getting cream cheese in my pants, you know, and, and you know, some say like, hired a Snickers bar, you know, but I felt guilty. Because I was eating candy, you know, and I’m, and I’m thinking, you know, well, you’re eating milkshake. It’s the same thing.

Tim Melanson: Milkshake is candy too.

Bill Flynn: But, you know, again, we’re, we’re irrational as

human beings. So they said, great. Um, so they went back to this, this franchise owner and said, look, you know, when, when, when they first, they said, when you first tried to increase your sales, what did you do?

And they said, well, we talked to our clients and we asked ’em what they want. And they said they wanted a chunkier, you know, more chocolatey, you know, whatever. Um. Thicker, you know, whatever. And, and they, they made all the changes and the sales didn’t change at [00:36:00] all. So they didn’t really want that, and they didn’t value that.

What they valued was this thing. So they said, okay, so here’s what we’re gonna do. And this was a long time ago. Before, you know, um, apple Pay and all this kind of stuff. So what they did is they made a whole bunch of milkshakes in the morning and they put them out on the counter. ’cause one of the other complaints they had was they go through the drive-through, but it’s, everyone’s getting a milkshake and it’s long.

The line is really long. They said, look, you don’t have to sit in the line. We’re gonna put ’em on the counter. You don’t even have to talk to us. Just come grab your milkshake, swipe your credit card and go. And sales went up. Yeah. Now same product, three to five in the afternoon. This is now dad with his progeny, right?

And he wants to be the cool dad. And the kid says, can I get a milkshake and whatever? And they say, well, all right, what do we do? But don’t tell mom, you know? But you know, the milkshakes were in these horrible cups that, you know, kids who didn’t have motor skills yet with crushing this milkshake would go everywhere. You [00:37:00] know, it was, you know, there were all these other issues. The straw was too small, their muscles in their mouth weren’t good, so they changed how they delivered it. They made it smaller, so dad felt less guilty. They put it in a sippy cup basically with a big fat straw, and sales went up. Again.

They didn’t change the product at all.

They changed how they delivered it and how they packaged it. So that’s how people buy. We’ve been buying that way forever. But we don’t do it as, we don’t, we, we think we know what’s best, but we don’t ever really figure out what they want or what they value, really more than they want. So that’s the fundamental thing.

Now how we do it is, you know, we have social media, we have, we have, you know, events. All the things that we do have changed, but the fundamental reason why people buy is still the same.

Tim Melanson: Oh, I love that. Bill. It’s time for your guest solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your business.

Bill Flynn: Yeah, so for me it’s, you know, it’s this stuff, you know, so [00:38:00] I, I, I love, so I, I’ve been studying this for, for so many years, and I just think it’s a shame that really good ideas, really good people, and really good businesses fail or struggle for completely preventable reasons. And now that I, I can sort of write about it and, and doesn’t. You know, just to stress me that I, it would take me forever to write a

book. Now I can write them really fast. I can now put them down and, and share them because I think, you know what, uh, we’re gonna see in the next five or 10 years if I’m, if I’m right. But I think even the, the management science that we have today is still not correct for the banning environment that we’re in. Right. So, like Michael Porter is seen as the father of strategy. Um, and he’s an HB HBS professor and he’s, you got the five forces and he said that operations shouldn’t be part of your strategy. And I think he’s wrong, and we’ve proven it because when you, you can, you can operate in a unique way that actually augments your strategy.

So I’m extending his thinking [00:39:00] there,

you know, so I’m, I’m, I think I’m extending thinking in a bunch of different areas and hopefully what I’m writing will help people. So that’s what excites me.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Well then how do we find out more then?

Bill Flynn: My website is catalyst growth advisors.com. Um, my current book, I dunno if this, this is video, but my current book is on there. You can actually download it for free if you want, if you wanna read a PDF or you can go to Amazon or, or um, audible or whatever to buy it. And

then my next book will be out, uh, hopefully in October. I’m actually, that was self-published. My other one, I actually have a real publisher now and I don’t know how it works. And so it’ll be, I’ll be in like airports and bookstores and whatever. Um, but mostly, uh, you can, you can find me there at Catalyst Growth Advisors, I write an article twice a month. I have a 50% plus open rate on my articles, so people seem to really like it. Um, all my stuff is there

Tim Melanson: That’s amazing. Well, right on. We’re gonna have to check that out. That book was called Further Faster, right?

Is that what

Bill Flynn: further, faster.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Right on. [00:40:00] So maybe the hardest question of the whole day, but who’s your favorite rockstar?

Bill Flynn: So it’s interesting, um, it used to be James Taylor,

but I, I’ve, and I still am because we talked about music. I play, I played acoustic guitar. I kind of sound a little like him as well. Uh, when I sing. Um, and I just love his, his fingering. I love his lyrics. I love his approach to things, but I’ve really gotten into Billy Joel these days ’cause

I watched his biopic and I just so much more appreciate his music and, and where he know, just like James Taylor.

James Taylor doesn’t read music and he, he actually, you know, learned incorrect how to. Play a guitar, but the way he plays it obviously works for him. And Billy Joel’s the same way. He’s a little tiny guy. He’s got tiny little hands, but man, he, he, he knows how to write a song. He knows how to, everything comes together.

His melody’s great. So he’s probably, right now, he’s currently my favorite. I, I listen to him, I listen to him on the way here from my, from my client thing [00:41:00] ’cause, and I’m just like screaming in the car because he’s got some great, great lyrics and

Tim Melanson: Oh, yeah. He’s such a great songwriter. I’ve got quite a few of his songs in my repertoire. Uh, but I, I did read once about him. He said he didn’t. He didn’t really wanna be a singer. He was trying to write these songs for other people, and he just kind of got thrust into it, and I find that amazing. Really.

Bill Flynn: Yeah. So yeah, if you, so have you seen the documentary?

Tim Melanson: I saw parts of it. I don’t think I saw the

Bill Flynn: Oh, I would see the whole, it, it is fascinating.

It, it. is really good. It’s, it’s like five or six hours long, but it’s so good and it goes through his whole life and. You can see how he transformed from what he was doing. So he really learned how to be a great songwriter.

You know, he, some of his early songs were okay, but he really got into it and, and he has synesthesia, so he is got an advantage over most creatives, you know, so he is, you know, my daughter is synesthesia, so that has helped him. But still, I mean, he, and he’s like, he just has a great work ethic and he, you know, he just went at it.

[00:42:00] And so, um, I would highly recommend, it’s just fascinating how he. He should have been so much better. But you know, he drank way too much and ruined all

these lives in his life. And my guess is he would still be married to Kristi Brinkley if he didn’t drink.

And who wouldn’t wanna be married to Kristi, Frank and Brinkley, even if she’s 60 years old or 70 years old, she’s still gorgeous.

Right. Um, anyway, so it’s, it’s, it’s just a fascinating human story as well, so.

Tim Melanson: Absolutely. Well, I’m gonna check that out for sure then. Thank you so much for rocking out with me today, bill. This has been a lot of fun.

Bill Flynn: Good. Yeah, me too.

Tim Melanson: Right on to the listeners. Make sure you, you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information and we’ll see you next time with the Work at Home Rockstar Podcast.

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast. Excited for today’s episode. We’re talking to a communications specialist and consultant, and what she does is she helps people find their voice and use it with purpose. I love that. So we are talking today with Corine La Font.

Hey Corine. You ready to rock?

Corine La Font: Of course I’m ready to rock and roll. Where’s the band? Where’s the band?

Tim Melanson: Brilliant. We’re gonna rock out. So we always start off here on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

Corine La Font: Oh, a story of success that I’m living, the life that I’ve always been dreaming of. You know, it has reached that point. I mean, I’ve, I’ve been doing it, but it has evolved, and when I say doing it, I mean I’m able to be at peace. The kids are grown. They’re not living with me. Yay me. You know? And that’s important, you know, as a mother, you know, you do your part as a mother.

And, um, I don’t think when, when you’re growing kids, you’re [00:01:00] thinking, when will this end? You’re trying to hold on to the kids as long as possible. But I was like, oh my God. You know, when will listen, you know? And, um. It’s good that my life is in a place now that I feel, um, thankful for the kids are grown and they’re doing their own thing, working, accomplished.

I don’t have to worry about them. So I’m at a good place and I’m not there like other people may have been when they retire. You know, people will see at 65 or 60 when they retire, they could do their own thing. I don’t believe in that first to begin. I don’t believe in anything called retirement. I don’t know.

Who came up with that hood, that rumor. Um, because I dunno what you’re retiring from. You have life in your, you know, life in your body, and you’re still a sane individual. They could do a lot of things. So I want to spread the joy of being in a good place, um, feeling good about myself. I’m [00:02:00] healthy, I’m happy, I’m contented.

Um, I could make choices. But there was a time where, you know, you couldn’t say no to certain things, especially as a solopreneur, you probably have to try and take on as many things as possible to try and make ends meet. But you know, saying no. And that’s one of the things I want to bring out in your podcast too, being able to.

Say no and having the choice. You know, people talk about freedom, you know, when it comes to working from home, you know, remote, that type of thing, and they think, you know, I don’t know what they think and what freedom is, but for me, freedom is being able to have the choice to say no. That you don’t have to say yes to everything and stress yourself out just because you’re in a situation and not, and not being in a desperate position.

Or feeling that you’re desperate, that you have to say yes, you know, um, even if you are in a desperate [00:03:00] position, you should not even say yes because you are betraying yourself. And you see that part, Tim, is it kills me more than if I were to drink poison. It, it. Self betrayal has been a significant thing for me, especially lately I’ve been coming to terms with it and, um, what just popped into my mind as I said this, when you work from home, you have a lot of time to think, to self-reflect that the environment is right for it.

Once you don’t have kids or anything distracting you, your thoughts tend to slow down and you have the time to be able to slow down so that you’re able to think about what you really want. What you really don’t want, and to be able to set those boundaries. So that’s the joy I’m spreading today.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, that’s a great story. And I, I agree. I mean, the freedom, I mean, when it comes down to it, we all have to do something. We all have to work. Um, but like, I think that, [00:04:00] uh, your story is very similar to what I want to inspire people to do. I, I, I want people to be able to choose, like when you’re working in a, in a job and someone’s telling you what you need to do or you get fired, right?

I mean, that, that’s a different scenario then perhaps a client. That telling you what they want you to do and you being able to say, uh, I I, I don’t want to do it. And dropping them as a client potentially and going to find another client. You, you have that, that ability to do something like that when you’re self-employed.

But when you’re stuck, you know, and, and, and you don’t have any other choice, then that, you know. ’cause I, I agree with you. I mean, what are you retiring from? I I Is your job that bad? Is your work that bad you need to stop? Right?

Corine La Font: Yeah, and even if it’s, you have the choice to choose something else that you enjoy. You see the mistake I think people are making is that they’re living for other people. They’re too concerned about what other people think. You know what your family would think, what your husband would think, what your sister, it doesn’t matter.

[00:05:00] It’s your life. They have lived their life. You know, or they are living it and nobody should have any authority on the decisions that you make. You know, you’re an adult and what if you mess up? What if the world is not going to come to an end? You’ll still be breeding hopefully the next day. You know, uh, you know, just let it go.

I think we are taking things too personally and we are allowing, we are giving permission to too many people in our lives.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and then that kind of leads us to the bad note because like, like you say, I mean, you are gonna make some mistakes. Things are not gonna go as planned. And I think that a lot of people, you know, put off. You know, doing what they really wanna do because they’re worried about those mistakes.

I’m wondering, can you share with me like something that didn’t go as planned and share it with the audience and then maybe help us like see how you recovered.

Corine La Font: Um, I can’t think of any major thing, but one of the things that I have [00:06:00] been, I wouldn’t say it’s a mistake. But I, I can, let me share the story. Okay. So like, I, I’m also a podcaster and I’ve been doing it, like I said to you off air from since about 2010. I’ve taken little breaks in between, but then when I assess it recently, ’cause I was still even pushing, I revamped it.

I, my, my whole imagery, my brand, everything. I had done all of that recently only to realize I’m just not as gungho about it anymore. I’m not just giving it. You know what it deserves. I’m not that, I’m not feeling it anymore, and I had to sit down, take a step back and say, why? Why is this happening? What is, what is going on?

And it just wasn’t in alignment with who I am and who I want to be going forward in my life. But I felt. This kind of a chaotic situation, but Corine, you have done it, you know, and everybody’s expecting it. And then you have had so many [00:07:00] hundreds of guests who love to come back to your show and there’s so much great reviews and, and again, it is coming from other voices that was coming at me and I felt like I had to.

So there are times that you’re going to feel like you have to do something, but where really is that have to voice. Coming from where really? And is it really in alignment with you, the now you, the now Tim, the now Corrine, you know, and the Corrine going forward. And the Tim going forward, is it matching?

And I’ll tell you this, Tim. When I let it go, I just let it go. And I was like so relieved. I felt such a. I don’t know, like I was carrying this weight that I didn’t realize I was carrying and even talking to you about it. No, I just feel such a joy of letting go of my podcast, which [00:08:00] seems so crazy, but it’s just not going forward with me.

It’s like a friend. You know, you have been friends with somebody for so many years and you’ve been doing everything together, but you are, but you wanna do something that’s different and you can’t take that friend with you. As much as you wanna take that friend, you just can’t. He can’t go with you where you’re going.

She can’t go with you where you’re going. The love is still there for my podcast. The love is still there for your friend, but the journey that you’re on now, you have to shed a lot of things. So I wouldn’t really call it a mistake, but the mistake or a failure is more of understanding where you are, the journey that you’re on.

To be able to know it’s okay. There are things in your business that I, or in my business, many years ago when I started working virtually, I had taken on a lot of stuff and then I had to shed it. It just [00:09:00] wasn’t me. I didn’t want to do it. It was, could you imagine you’re doing something, you start a business because you want to do a particular thing.

You want to have the flexibility, the freedom, but then you are quarreling with yourself every day. You are mad going to bed every day that those two things just don’t go together,

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Corine La Font: you know? So we, you know, it wasn’t really a mistake. I think the mistake was trying to hold onto it. You know, if you wanna look at it like that, trying to hold on with a tight grip and not letting go.

So when you decide to start your own business, you have to make those kind of decisions and it’s okay. And I may resume the podcast probably a little later on who, who’s to tell my life may evolve into that and it may attract that type of thing. Well, right now mm-hmm. I’m good. I did it from 2010. I can’t even do the mats on how long that has been.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, it’s funny. So I think I, I, I think that’s probably. A really relatable message to a lot of [00:10:00] people. And just that once you do something or you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re with somebody or anything like that for a long, it’s like the longer you’re with them, the more connected you feel to it or, or, or loyal, I guess you feel to it attached and.

Like, uh, we’re allowed to change our minds, right? I mean, just because it was the right business to start, it doesn’t mean that you can’t just change and do something different, but I think that a lot of people just don’t. They, they don’t. And now I think that another big lesson about that right now especially is that the world is changing pretty drastically.

And I think where this could really cause people problems, like. Yes. There’s problems, like you say, of just not being aligned and just not liking it anymore. And that’s, that’s a problem, right? Because it’ll, it’ll hurt your, your mental ability, but you, you could still be. Productive and paying the bills and everything could still be going good, but what about if you get stuck doing [00:11:00] something that maybe that that job market is disappearing.

Maybe the world is changing, and now you’re still doing something that is going away, but you feel so connected to it and attached to it,

Corine La Font: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s something that we have to deal with that that term called attachment is what gets us in a lot of trouble.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Corine La Font: Because we are not seeing it objectively without bias. If someone was to come to you and tell you that same story of what they’re going through with attachment, you would say, boy, why are you still holding onto that girl?

Let that X, Y, Z go. It’s easy to give advice to somebody, but when it comes to you, you are not, you know that same situation is happening to you. You are not, it’s hard for you to, to take that advice. Why? Because you are attached to it.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Corine La Font: If you remove that attachment to anything, whether it is a parent, a spouse, a friend, and you say, if this wasn’t my friend, [00:12:00] if he wasn’t my spouse, if she wasn’t my wife, if he wasn’t my child, if that wasn’t my boss, you are going to see it very, very clear.

The attachment is on the title that person holds, husband, wife, son, daughter, best friend job. If you remove that. It makes it extremely clear what you are dealing with. You have to remove the attachment in order for you to get clarity, and that’s what I do as a communication specialist too, because I help people to gain clarity in, in situations and what they’re dealing with because you’re mixing it up with the emotional attachment.

You have and the title that person has to you, my mother, my father, my husband, my daughter, my son. I can’t, no. Yes you can. Yes, you can remove that attachment and it becomes clear your child is doing something. If [00:13:00] somebody came to you and they said their son was doing that, you would not, you would say, but why are you tolerating that?

You are the mother. We have to be able to remove attachment, and that’s the only way to do it. Remove that title, remove that emotional tie that you have to that role that that person has in your life.

Tim Melanson: Agree. Agree. So let’s talk a little bit about the jam room now. You’ve been working from home for a long time, and so tell me about how your home office operates. Like how, how is that built for you?

Corine La Font: My home office is on my bed. I love working for my bed.

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome.

Corine La Font: That’s the beauty. I am in my pajamas or whatever you wanna call it went for as long as I want. You know, I, I mean, we know how this whole remote thing started. You could be wearing all sort of stuff here, but you might not be wearing, but don’t worry, I’m wearing something.

So, no, but it gives you that sort of real freedom. [00:14:00] You know, real comfort and the mistake people make is because they think you are comfortable and they think you are free, that you’re not working. But it actually does a lot for the mind. It does a lot for the mind because you are comfortable and because you have freedom to think space.

You know, no clutter, no distractions, no noise. You are able to perform. Some people are best in the day. Some people are best in the night, like I was mentioning to you off air, you know, when I was a a, a young child, you know, I used to be studying two, three o’clock in the morning. I love that. And especially when the rain starts to fall and you, you get that sort of, you know, background simulation and, and I just used to soak in everything.

Now that I’m old, if I have to read something, it’s so difficult. You know, if I read something it takes me hours and I’m like, no, this is not making sense. Put on the book, you know? But then, you know, I used to be studying like that and when I have to work now, I [00:15:00] could work any time. And it works, like I say, with global time zones.

Because when you’re working two, three o’clock in the morning, it works pretty well with anywhere else. So it’s, it works for me. It works for me. I have been doing it for so many years, like you said. But in between those years, I did have to go into in office work, uh, at times, but I guess you would call it probably a hybrid.

There are times I was home. There are times I go in, sometimes I was in office every day, but. I was able to still have that flexibility, but now, oh my God, I, I love it. I have been doing it for a while. As a matter of fact, now I demand that I work remotely. I really don’t wish to be mixing with human beings.

I love them very dearly, but I like them through the screen. You know, I like them through the screen. I don’t have a need for, and, and this is what traditional workplaces push. Oh, you need to socialize. Um. I don’t know what they call it, the Friday [00:16:00] evening things and, and team and it’s for the team. No, no, no, no.

That, that’s not true. We, we could do that online as well. And there are some people who really don’t need to mix. I am quite happy being by myself. I want to choose who I want to spend my time with. When you’re in the office, you can’t get to choose, so they take away that freedom. I’m mixing with Tim, the guy who talks a lot, you know, when I come out and in the social gatherings and he wants to drink all the time, I don’t wanna, you know, so it, it, it takes away that from you, you know, and I, and we know the studies have been done, you know, about.

Work productivity increases. You know, people are so much better. That whole mental health capacity, we don’t have that, but they just, it, it’s coming from a place team of control. You see, they have been so ingrained and programmed, and when I say they, I mean the organizations, the agencies, the [00:17:00] people who are hiring you, whoever they are, they want control without seeing you sitting at a cubicle desk and office.

They don’t. They don’t know what to do. They’re like a fish out of water, you know? But that’s a damn problem, not a me problem. You know? That’s a damn problem. They need to get therapy for that. That’s insecurity. And they probably are having the mental health issues. We don’t, you know, and that’s something they need to reverse the, the projection because they’re projecting on us that we are not working when that is clearly not the case.

You know, the, the society and the environment has turned into more performance as opposed to sitting at a desk. ’cause I could sit at my desk all day, you know, I mean, people are very good at that. I could sit at my desk Oh, and do nothing. And do nothing. And at the end of the day, at the end of the month or two weeks, I, I am coming for my pay.

You said you wanted me. Here I am here. You know, I don’t necessarily have to do [00:18:00] anything, just pay me my money. But you find that people are more productive when they’re at home. They’re getting things done because they’re managing their self, managing their time. Making the necessary adaptions, you know, to get the stuff done.

And it’s more on deliverables, more on what you need to deliver at a particular time, more than being in a particular space, sitting down and you telling me, why are you doing so and so, who are you talking to? Why are you on the phone so long? Why you didn’t coming to to office at this particular time?

What, why did you take lunch so long? Control. Control. But they have the issue. It’s not us. They are the ones who. And like I said, our, our fish out of water. When they’re not able to see you and tell you when to come, when to go and shout at you or embarrass you or manipulate you in front of other people, you know, they can’t get to do that.

You know, so they need therapy team. They need therapy,

Tim Melanson: Probably they do. Yeah. I, I agree. And, and you know what I mean, there are probably different [00:19:00] personalities. I know that there are some people that probably do work better in an office environment, and maybe they do need. I, I mean, those control mechanisms are probably there because people do take advantage of it.

I mean, like what you said earlier, I mean, if someone just sits there and doesn’t do any work all day, they still get paid. And there are people that game the system like that. However, I would argue that that’s not good for the soul. I think that we are meant to create, we’re meant to be productive, and we’re just happier when we’re productive.

Right.

Corine La Font: Of course.

Tim Melanson: So I, you know, for me, I just think that we’re better off to, you know, get into a type of work or a type of job where we feel the most productive and we feel like we’re contributing the most. I, I know that in my previous job was a very, very large company and I never really saw the end of any project.

I was just like a small cog in of this huge machine, and it just, it, it didn’t feel like I was doing anything, like I was

Corine La Font: Contributing your life. Yes.

Tim Melanson: [00:20:00] Yeah. And, and so when I started my own business and started working for myself, I see the start, the middle, the end of every project, right? Like you feel like you’re con, like you’re doing

Corine La Font: Your, your life means something. Yes. Your life means something or contributing to something. And that is something even true. It, it is called like a legacy. When I leave this earth, you know, what do I leave? What’s my footprint? That matters to people. You know, there’s some people who might matter too, and that’s fine.

That is also their digital footprint. They’re leaving. Just go with the flow kind of energy and that’s fine too. And yet you are right. There are some people who need that structure because I know some people who prefer to go in, they need it, and that’s okay, but that’s just not everybody. And I think coming from an HR perspective, we need to re-look and evolve human resources and look at the way people.

People think people operate how best they want to work. [00:21:00] And, and, and like I mentioned to you even off air, uh, Tim, you know, um, as a woman, we are childbearing creatures. We produce children, we go through a lot of hormones. Like I said, I can’t speak for men, but we go through a lot of up and down in our lives, and like for me, I’m going through perimenopause.

I don’t know when that will end. I mean, I just discovered this whole thing. As a matter of fact, let me take that back. It discovered me and, and I just had to go with it. And it is not something I met before to say, well, hey, perimenopause, good to meet you. What do you do? You know, and have a conversation. I didn’t have that.

It just came to me and decided I’m taking over and, and, and there was no get to know you kind of thing. So it’s, as we go along on this journey, I am learning about perimenopause every day. Yesterday is not the same as today, and it will not be tomorrow, you know, and so. Workplaces to me, and I hope this gets out [00:22:00] in a, in a magnificent way, because this is important.

Workplace is supposed to consider the phases. We go train in life. If you think back when you were a teenager, of course you had a lot of energy. You, you, you could, you could take over the world, you know, you have so much things that you wanna do and whatever, and you had time, nothing is gonna happen to you.

Time is, I mean, you control time and then as you’re getting in your twenties, you know, you probably might have a girlfriend or somebody serious that you might be thinking of. And you know, you’re going through a different phase every decade of your life. And as you hit the forties, it’s a different thing.

You know some people, they say, I, you should have had children, or you may have, or you’re thinking about a house or investment savings, all these things that matter to you. You know, and physically things are happening in your body. How you used to move as a teenager, you’re not moving like that in your forties, worse yet, in your fifties and sixties.

So it’s, you know, it’s, they have to [00:23:00] really create work and the environment, particularly to consider. All those different phases that you’re going through in your life that some may not want to work until their forties or fifties. Some may wish to work until they’re in the seventies. Some may not wish to work at all.

Some may wish to work, you know, from home all the time. Some may want longer vacations. That that’s another thing that I find ridiculous. I am on vacation every day. You are not to tell me when I am to go on vacation, how much sick days I have, when to get sick, how to get sick for how long casual leave I have to beg, you know?

I mean, this is crazy. I am on vacation every day. Every day I am on vacation

Tim Melanson: You’re on vacation and you’re working.

Corine La Font: and I’m working. Well, it’s a working vacation, so

Tim Melanson: yeah, yeah. I love that. I.

Corine La Font: I, I’m on a working [00:24:00] vacation, okay? I could step outside on my veranda and take in the natural birds and the breeze and, and the trees and the sew that people buy on YouTube and download. I have this naturally right here. I’m in the Caribbean. Come on.

I take advantage of that. Why should I be sitting down in a concrete office?

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And it’s just so awesome that we, and, and hey, I mean some companies probably will develop, develop that like as I think that as you know, companies evolve. They’re starting to see that they need to, you know, be a little bit more mindful of this ’cause people just aren’t gonna go to the jobs anymore.

However, uh, you know, in the meantime we could start something on our own and we can control these, these variables ourselves. Right?

Corine La Font: Of course it’s all up to you. You see the choice is yours as I, I come back to it. Nobody should dictate or have that authority. You are not to give anybody permission to do that, you know? Um, take a chance on you. [00:25:00] I, when I see people say, oh, they post on LinkedIn or whatever, that they were fired or let, whatever it is, I’m like, celebrate, this is the opening.

Celebrate, this is the opening that you, you needed. This is the the time where the doors are open for you to do whatever you wanted to do or do nothing if you didn’t want to do that. This is your moment. Celebrate, say thank you. Thank you, God. Thank you. Thank you.

Tim Melanson: I agree. I agree. It’s, it’s, it’s an opening, right? And door is closing. A new, uh, new one is opening and it’s your choice and what you wanna do

Corine La Font: course, it’s your choice. It’s your choice and nobody should be guilting you and nobody will guilt you because you’re fired, so you, you know, you have that freedom to do whatever you want, you know?

Tim Melanson: So tell me about, you mentioned that you like to work with people over the Zoom, right? So, so tell me about that. Do you, uh, do you hire people? Do you have employees? Do you have

Corine La Font: I [00:26:00] do. That’s a beautiful thing. When you work from home and you have your own business, you can subcontract. So I do consultancies and so these are for major regional organizations or intergovernmental organizations. That I may have to pull in people as needs be, um, to help me in terms of what I need to do.

Some things I do solo, but I manage it. I lead it, you know, at a higher level, make sure everything is on point and they’re delivering and on time. I’m very particular with that because it’s my name and my business, LA Foreign Associates. That’s, you know, the reputation. Yeah. So. I do hire people, I do connect with people, even on LinkedIn.

You know, I would see people, um, with certain skills. I would reach out. I would say, Hey, send me your portfolio. I’m not looking for anybody right at this minute. But it’s good to connect so that, you know, should I need somebody on the fly? Because sometimes these proposals that I send out, they’re like.

Within a day or two, I have to submit, you know? And so I need to have people’s information, you know, at my [00:27:00] fingertips. So I will connect with people on LinkedIn, so anybody hearing this, you know, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. You just never know where it’ll end up. And, um, yeah, so I do hire people, um, on occasions, you know, but I prefer to work people globally.

I, I like the difference of thinking, and that’s a me thing. Again, I, I am not into, um. Uh, same thinking. You know, I, I love diversity challenge, what I say. Um, of course respectfully challenge what the approach to things. I love that. And I don’t have to lead everything. Um, I would overall, because it’s under my name.

Make sure that everything goes fine. But if you are very good at something, or I definitely don’t wanna do it, I am certainly going to make you lead. I am gonna say, Hey, you take the lead on that, you know, we just update me. I I have no need to control or to, um. [00:28:00] To, to be in the spotlight. I would sit back and support.

I love doing that. I, I, that’s how I raised my children. I believe that people, once you work with someone, the, the, the, the ones that come after you’re supposed to be better than you, I’m supposed to be sitting back and saying, yes. You know, I, I had something to do with that. That makes me feel real good. We talked about legacy before.

That is what I love, my legacy, that I touch somebody’s lives and. And they are better off than me. They’re able to make that bolder step and, and do the things, you know, that, that they could do and stretch themselves. That makes me smile, that, that brings a joy to my heart. So I make people lead and I will support you.

I make you go up to the podium and present in front of a large audience, and I’ll be the, the person clapping the loudest and screaming the hardest, you know? Mm-hmm.

Tim Melanson: So let’s get into your solo then. What’s exciting in your business right now?

Corine La Font: Uh, [00:29:00] right now I am building out an ecosystem that I don’t wanna give too much details about, but I’m building out an ecosystem with my business that creates a sort of infrastructure that allows me to go even more global. That is exciting for me.

Tim Melanson: is exciting. Yeah.

Corine La Font: That is exciting for me. Uh, an infrastructure that is there for everybody, you know, but they’re just not doing it.

And I’m taking the time now as I have a little downtime to be able to just put in that solid infrastructure that allows me to go even more global. And, and that I find it very exciting because I’m learning new things. I’m testing myself, I’m stretching myself, I’m doing things in other. Areas, the skills that I’m performing is not even mine.

I, I didn’t learn it, but I’m learning and making mistakes as I go along. So I love that. And so, um, I, it is like tinkering. [00:30:00] You know, when you come across something and you tinker with it and you’re like, oh, I didn’t know I could do that. Oh yeah. Oh, let’s try this. So I’m, I’m tinkering and building an infrastructure at the same time.

So I love that.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Well, how are people gonna be able to find out about this then?

Corine La Font: Oh, people can contact me if they have to contact me through the screen, through the screen.

Tim Melanson: Through this screen, they can book you on Zoom.

Corine La Font: Through the screen. Um, the main place to, to catch me are two main places. Actually. If you reach out to me on LinkedIn while you see my name on the screen cor phone, you just do a search for me and you see this cute face. Of course you can’t miss it. So you check me on LinkedIn. And another major place I would love for people to go is beyond the lines learning.com.

That should be pretty simple beyond B-E-Y-O-N-D-T-H-E-L-I-N-E-S learning.com. Beyond the lines.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. That sounds awesome. Okay, so now I’m wondering, are you a fan of music? Who’s your favorite rock [00:31:00] star?

Corine La Font: Listen, you are my favorite rock star. Tim, I, you are my favorite rock star because I have to come and see you playing a band. I get excited and just to, just to say I know that guy. I want to be a better show as I know the guy who’s played a fan. I wanna do that. But my favorite artist has always been Michael Jackson, and it’ll always be.

I love Michael. I go crazy for Michael. I still don’t believe he is dead. I don’t care what you think, but I still don’t believe he’s dead.

Tim Melanson: I hope not.

Corine La Font: I don’t believe

Tim Melanson: back and he and he releases another album.

Corine La Font: I don’t think he would. That’s why I think he’s, he’s gone under just quiet. His life has been one that never allowed him to be the child. That he was meant to be because he grew up as a, he grew bodily physically as a man, but he was still a child, you know? And imagine, and I could relate to that because I behave very childlike everywhere I go.

You know, people are like, Corrin grew up. And I’m like, why? [00:32:00] Why? You know, his birthday is I think the 29th of August and I’m the 27th. Yeah. So we are just two days apart. So I love Michael. I could understand his vision. If you notice. He was extremely visionary. He always tried things, you know, he tinkered with things.

Even his movement and dancing is totally nobody. I mean, people always, even to this day, can you imagine, Tim, there are children being born today. They would hear of Michael and you’re going to see them in a video. Not too long practicing. Michael’s

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Corine La Font: doing Michael’s steps because the man is just immortal.

Don’t matter what time. He’s just immortal. So even if he comes back with her, he wouldn’t, he wants quiet, he wants peace. He wants, he wants to just enjoy himself. That’s why I feel he is not dead. He’s not there. The man is a mastermind. He’s a mastermind.

Tim Melanson: he is. He is. And his, I mean, his music [00:33:00] is so good. It’s just so much of it and it’s so, uh, I, I love it too.

Corine La Font: When I’m, when I’m in a mood or somebody gets me, you know, I like. Pop on my Michael’s music and start to dance. I’m like, yes, this is it. And by the time I’m done, what was I thinking? Who? Who was bothering me again?

Tim Melanson: Yep. You can always fill the dance floor.

Corine La Font: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. The dance floor. That’s my thing. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Corine, this has been an awesome interview. Thank you so much for rocking out with me today.

Corine La Font: Oh, it’s been a pleasure. It’s been a pleasure. I need to come and here you play a tip. Why don’t you pick up something now and show me. Do it live. Do it live.

Tim Melanson: Oh, no, no, no. We’re almost out of time. But

Corine La Font: Oh my God,

Tim Melanson: you, you can definitely see me. I’ve got, uh, lots of stuff on online. Actually. I’ve got, uh, my band’s online. You can go to randomzband.com

Corine La Font: see you through the screen. I wanna see the other colleagues and on the [00:34:00] screen. I don’t want to see you through the screen. I wanna see you live.

Tim Melanson: So that’s the exception. You like the screen for work?

Corine La Font: Yes, live.

Tim Melanson: Well, maybe at some point you can come to Canada. I’m in Canada. You’re in the, you’re in the Caribbean. I, I think I’d probably rather go to you. Yeah,

Corine La Font: built for the cold.

Tim Melanson: well next time I’m in the Caribbean I’ll look you up.

Corine La Font: I, that’s a very good, that’s a very good statement. Come to the,

Tim Melanson: Yes. Awesome. And this has been so much fun to the listeners, making sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information and we’ll see you next time on the Work at Home Rockstar Podcast.

Corine La Font: bye. Thank you.

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast I am talking to with an author of Life Switch. He’s also the co-founder and co-owner of Steele Financial Solutions. And what he does, uh, through his book is he entertains and inspires people with the messages and lessons from it.

And also as a financial advisor, he helps people with their finances and helps them prepare for retirement. So I’m super excited to be rocking out today with Joel Steele. Hey, Joel, you ready to rock?

Joel Steele: Ready to rock. Let’s do it.

Tim Melanson: to rock. Yeah. So we always start off here on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

Joel Steele: Yeah. Well for me, you know, my, the story and I, the book is, you know, the main platform for this, but I had a restaurant business I had a passion for, for fitness and, and having people eat healthy. And I tried to bring it to the world. And this restaurant started off very successful. I opened up several stores.

I had a small chain at 24 years old, and ultimately it crashed and burned. And, uh, I got unplugged and [00:01:00] the music was turned off and I did not have a chair to sit in. And that was the worst time in my life. And I felt like my life was over at 24. And I realized that, well, chronologically, I’ve got a lot more life left to go.

And so the good part of that story is that business failure is what led to me finding success in a different industry, the financial services industry. Where I co-founded my company back 22 years ago, and this has led to the life I live today. It’s been the hand that feeds everything. The sports teams that I own a part of.

It’s allowed me to be at every single sporting event or choir event for my kids. I mean, my kids are 17 and 15 and I’ve missed nothing. There’s not one event that I’ve ever missed that I look back and have regret about. Instead, I, I’m happy and I’m proud that I’ve been able to be present. While building my business over the years.

Tim Melanson: Wow, that is a huge success. I love to hear stuff like that because I mean, I, you know, you hear [00:02:00] people talking about success in terms of financial abundance and all that stuff, which is definitely success. But there’s also the success of being there for, and, and, and, you know, going through life and actually being prison for all the events that happen and not being at the end of it and going like, oh, I missed all the firsts.

Right. Um, I mean, that’s, that’s amazing. And, you know, to be able to have the ability to do it and also to have some financial successes, a big success, right?

Joel Steele: Absolutely. You know, I, I always talk to people, my clients, especially about the word rich. Rich means an abundance. It doesn’t necessarily mean of money, but that’s what everyone thinks about when they think of rich. And I have an abundance of love and memories and experiences. ’cause life, I think, is all about experiences.

Not how much money you have, but how much experience you’ve got out of this one life that you live. Uh, but it has been absolutely amazing to be able to have that time and the ability to do these things. And it’s interesting for, for me, and maybe anyone listening today, when I was younger, I was super ambitious and I still am, but I had this goal, like Isaac, like, I [00:03:00] don’t want to just make a million dollars.

I wanna make $10 million. I just had like, you know, my eyes were turning green. I just wanted to go out and kill it and crush the corporate world and start a business and, and make a ton of money. And you know, I didn’t know I was ignorant. I thought that meant success. I thought that was living a rich life.

And as I met my wife and eventually had kids, I realized that that was not at all what I wanted. Now sure, I wanted to be able to have enough, uh, financial means to be able to live, uh, and have a great life, but to go try to be filthy rich, you know, just to run up the score was completely empty and probably would’ve really destroyed all the things that were important to me.

I think some people. They keep scoring life based on money, and that’s not just the main scorecard. It’s like the only one, and that’s, that’s a losing game because you’re never gonna have the most money. Sorry to break it to you

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Now that’s, that’s a good point too. You’re never gonna have the, you’re always gonna be fighting with somebody else. I mean, even if you look at the leaderboards of the richest people in the world, they’re, they’re flipping around all the time. So, I mean, that’s a, that’s a [00:04:00] tough game to be playing, right?

Joel Steele: That’s right. Yeah. So people need to really understand what game they are playing. How do you win, right? What are the rules of the game, and and how do you keep track of that score? I, I say like in baseball, you can keep track of the number of hits all you want, but at the end of the day, what wins games are runs on the board.

You know, usually hits translate, hit translate to more runs, but not necessarily. And so you could have one big error. And that could blow the game. And in your life you could have an error. You can fumble or drop the ball with your family or something that’s important to you at least You said it was important.

But if you don’t actually live out and are, are not present and see or priorities in front of your face every day, then they might go in the back burner. And the back burner can be a dangerous, scary place to be.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, what you just said there, what you said was important is, is an important distinction. ’cause I think a lot of times people will say something and then not do it, and then have these excuses on why they didn’t do it. Which I, I mean, bottom line is you just [00:05:00] didn’t do it right. If you said you were gonna do it and you didn’t do it, then okay, fine.

Maybe there was some circumstances that came in the way, but then the next question I would have would be, okay, that’s fine. You know, sometimes things do happen, but what did you do to stop that from happening the next time? ’cause these things tend to repeat themselves over and over. Right?

Joel Steele: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. If you don’t, you know, hit the brakes, do a 180 or whatever you need to do a K turn, uh, yeah, you’re gonna keep going down the same path. It’s the same beginning. You picture being in your car. If you’re on a hill and you’re not hitting the brake, you’re gonna roll whichever way.

The hill is slanting. You have to take physical action. If you want a different result. And so I always say that if you want different results, you have to start thinking differently before you even start doing differently. Understand what you’re trying to do, what you’re trying to avoid. And I, I have a simple two step formula for success in, in all things personal and professional.

It’s step one, figure out what needs to be done. Step two is go out and do it. And most things in life I think are like that. They’re [00:06:00] simple. To, to say and comprehend, but they’re hard to actually do. But you need to physically apply that pressure and, and do the things that you know you need to do to get the results that you want to have.

Tim Melanson: Wow. So we already touched on the, on the bad note a little bit. I think, uh, there might be a few bad notes right along the way. Uh, but that’s, I mean, that tends to be the main fear of most people is that they don’t want to make a mistake. What happens if I fail? What happens if it doesn’t work out? Right?

All that kind of stuff. And I’m wondering like, what’s your, I mean, you know, having been there, what you know, was that the bad, the biggest bad note? I mean, is there another one you can share with us? But also, you know, what, what did you learn outta that?

Joel Steele: Yeah, well, you know that, I mean, I learned, I learned a ton out of, out of my restaurant business failing. But I’ll give you a couple other things and we’ll circle back, I’m sure to the restaurant later. ’cause that was the, you know, the most major turning point in my life. But there was other ones, you know, younger, uh, being younger as a young adult and a kid, I got caught up in the wrong crowd and I.[00:07:00]

Started to do some things, some petty crimes. I didn’t get arrested, but I was literally staring at a jail cell and the cop told me to pick which one I wanted to be in, and I just turned white. And, you know, thinking about my life was reduced to a choice of, you know, this jail cell or that jail cell, I’m thinking what, like, where did I go wrong?

But I had an opportunity to reform and change without getting a, you know, permanent smear on my record, fortunately. And it got me to understand a lot of things. That there’s a lot of good people out there that have gotten caught up in bad things, that if people are giving, given a second chance or an opportunity, they can excel and and give back to the world.

But it also got me to realize how much I not just enjoy helping people, but I need to do it. If I’m not helping people in some way, shape, or form, I feel almost like empty, like, like the life is getting sucked out of me. And I was able to take that, that love to help people, that passion and apply it to different things.

I, again, I tried to do it. I did it as a personal trainer, which went uh, [00:08:00] really poorly. Then I turned that around. Then it went well real well. Then I did it in the restaurant business for a while and that didn’t work out, but I just. Redirected that passion to help people to then helping them with their finance, helping them become financially independent and be able to retire to have the money, and more importantly, the time to do the things that they are passionate about and want to do in their life before the sand runs out of the hourglass.

So learning in that low moment at a younger age that I need to help people really transformed my professional career to make sure that I wasn’t just making money for me. But I was doing things to help people, and in the process of helping them become successful, I became successful.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And I, I think that that mindset is very important too. ’cause I mean, business is all about solving problems. It’s all about helping people. And as long as you have that idea of, okay, my, my. Job here is to help people. I think people get caught up in what they do, right? And, and they end up like, I mean, imagine if you had just said, oh, you [00:09:00] know what?

This business failed in, in the restaurant business. I just need to push harder, or I need to open it up another business, like another restaurant. Like, and people will stick to it thinking that that’s their identity. But really what you want it to do is you want it to help people and so you can kind of flow into whatever the next thing is that’s gonna help people.

Right.

Joel Steele: Yeah, totally. And it’s funny you say that because I actually had a lease in my hand for a fourth store when the, the first three were kind of crumbling on a rocky foundation. I was, I was burning money. I mean, $20,000 a month. You are right outta the gate. Uh, and this was back in 2004, so that’s probably, you know, closer to $30,000 today.

But I just was so focused on this is gonna work. Uh, you know, I’m gonna be the next Howard Schultz, Ray Crock, you know, uh, Colonel Sanders. You know, Tim, Tim Morton’s. Right? Whatever. Uh, but I, I was thinking like that. I wasn’t thinking what could go wrong. I was thinking, what if this goes all right? And I would, my score I was keeping track of was not [00:10:00] profit and loss.

That was, that looked like Christmas, but mostly red. Not, not a lot of green. Um, but, but some days were good, but mostly it was red and I wasn’t keeping track of that score as much as I was keeping track of the number of scores I had. That to me was like, okay, that’s success. That’s what I’m focusing on.

But after a while I realized that, you know what? This is getting to a point where it’s, it’s just not gonna work. You know, it’s like digging for oil and, you know, you get, you know, a thousand feet in the ground. It’s like, do you really keep going at this point? Uh, and so I, I had to really take off my blinders and stop.

But then. It was looking at, well, what’s the big picture goal for me? And the big picture was always to, to have a good life, to enjoy it, to be a family man, to have a successful business. And just ’cause that business failed. Didn’t mean that I was a failure. It didn’t mean that I couldn’t find success in something else.

And that’s why I tell people, don’t be afraid of failure. Don’t be afraid of experiences. Start saying yes to things. There’s a funny movie with Jim Carrey from a number [00:11:00] of years ago called Yes Man, and after saying no to everything for years and living a sheltered life where it felt like the walls were closing in, he feared everything.

He started to say yes to everything, and he ended up creating an amazing life. Some things didn’t work out well, some did. Some were. Things you laugh about, but that’s what creates, you know, an interesting person. That’s what creates a, a rich life, is having things to talk about, to laugh about. You go out to the bar with your buddies to have a beer, you know, it’s, well, I went to work today and I went home.

Okay, how was your commute? Like, who cares? You know? It’s like, tell me something interesting that happened today. I asked my kids that, what was the funniest thing that happened today? You know, was anything, anything different happened in school this week? You know? We, we don’t like to do the same monotonous thing.

We like to mix it up. Our brains need to be stimulated. We have all this amazing wiring in here, and it wasn’t meant to be stuck living in a cubicle, going through the same hamster reel every single day. It, it leads to rot, you know, just completely like rotting away and wasting. I, I [00:12:00] say all the capabilities that we were blessed with the day we were born.

Tim Melanson: Agreed. Yeah, I agree. Well, and I, I mean, you and I are very similar in, in, in our outlook, right? Not looking at the bad, mostly looking at the good, very optimistic. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs are in that boat where we’re not really, we don’t, we just don’t even, I wanna look at the bad, right.

Especially early on in the career. Right. I’m wondering though, because. Eventually that does catch up. Okay. He caught up to me too. So eventually you do have to look at that. Now, I’m wondering if you were speaking to like your 20-year-old self and going like, Hey, trying to give him advice, what would you say to that might actually get through to him to make him look at that, you know, bad side right of it?

Joel Steele: Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s such a. Tough question because I can honestly say if I would’ve known the challenges I would’ve had to go through for the restaurant business, I probably wouldn’t have done it. And it’s the same thing with my book. Everyone said like, I wrote the book, like I [00:13:00] just did it. You know?

I just kind of got everything off my chest and put it out there. And it ended up being like 310 pages of Microsoft Word, which is a mammoth document. I actually had to cut out about 25% of that, but reading books about how to write a book later on after that was saying, well, you need to do an outline. You have to do this, you have to do that.

I’m thinking like, oh, like, that’s not me. I don’t like to, you know, sort of sit down and, and put out my fork and my knife here and spread out my napkin. I just like started chowing down, you know, and so look at the book. I just started letting it rip. With a restaurant, it was kind of the same thing. It’s almost like, how do I deal with the negative and that kind of stuff, and, and the reality, sometimes I just don’t, because that’s the best way to go flying through those obstacles, is to just view them as like thin glass.

I’m just gonna bust through this. You know, like if you’re punching through an object, you don’t punch the object, you punch through it. And I guess I kind of view things like that. I was like, you know, whatever the challenges are, I don’t care. I’m gonna do that. I’m like, I, here’s my end goal and I’ll see you there and I’ll just figure [00:14:00] out a way to get through everything else.

So that’s, maybe it’s not unique, but I know not everybody thinks like that, but that’s led to all the success I’ve had in every different industry. When I, you know, people tell me, well, I sit down, I plan out the month, the day of the year. That’s great. But that’s not me. You know, I like with my financial company, especially in the first 10 years, I just.

Put in as much activ as I could possibly put in each day. I didn’t plan it. It was just every day let’s freestyle and have a jam session and go crazy and see how much activity I could generate. So I was kind of like, you know, some people might not do well with that, you know, ’cause it’s not structured.

But for me, I was like, I don’t wanna put a ceiling on my output, my activity. I want to see what I can do. So I wasn’t thinking about minimums or maximums. I was just trying to get out there and make it happen, you know, not waste any time in my mind.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, and, and I mean, when you do push through those things too, like you find out on the other side of it that you make the mistake, okay, I made the mistake, I learned a lesson from that one. And then you move on to the next one. Especially [00:15:00] with the edit, with that kind of attitude, you’re, you’re always just gonna move to the next thing, so you might as well just get going.

Right.

Joel Steele: Yeah. And I like to say too, you know, I tell people when I, I do, uh, some keynote speaking, uh, to different financial companies and other organizations, but, uh, whether it’s sales or financial companies, when I’m explaining to ’em, I say that. Bad activity is better than no activity because you never know.

Like, I’ve had some like award-winning terrible, like razzy style, like, uh, conversations on the phone where I’m like, like in my, in my head I’m like punching myself in the face. I mean, this is so bad. Like, what are you doing? And, and it’s, it still had success at times because I was able to at least satisfy some minimum requirements for the prospective clients, like presenting investment solutions, talking about retirement.

Even though I’m thinking to myself, you know, like, this is a terrible performance. You know what? Sometimes it was okay. It still, it still worked. And so bad activity is better than no activity. And think about this. If you’re a musician and you’re on your guitar or piano and you’re just messing [00:16:00] around hitting notes, like you might hit a note or put together a melody that you didn’t plan to do, and it might be like, well, hang on, wait, do that again, and boom, all of a sudden, there you go.

I mean, sometimes the best products, songs, thoughts, uh, come from accidents come from trying things, experimenting.

Tim Melanson: That is absolutely true. Right? And, uh, it’s, it is, it is interesting that when you speak to some, uh, some artists that, I mean, they, they do all often say that it just came outta nowhere. And, you know, sometimes, uh, when you, like you say, if you, you know, put your. Fork and spoon out, and you, you put everything out like out there and you try to do everything in a box.

It ends up not really being very creative, it’s just this cookie cutter sort of thing. And I think the same thing happens in business as well. I mean, if you, if you try to plan and plan and plan and plan, you’re just never gonna get out of the gate. You might as well get going because. Uh, I know with, uh, with music, especially, like so many things [00:17:00] can happen on a stage.

So many things, like someone could fall into you while you’re playing. Like literally if you’re in these little bars, like you can’t plan for that. Like, did you have that figured out what you were gonna do when someone falls on you so that you don’t mess up? Like, like, it’s just, there’s so much stuff that can happen.

You’re, you’re better off to just get out there instead of like overthinking everything. Right.

Joel Steele: Yeah. Yeah. And, and something happens. Again, it’s something you can laugh at, you can talk about later. You know, you see some of these shows, you see the, the clips online, you know, a musician fell on stage and you know, quite frankly, that gets more attention than if the show went on as planned. And that’s why you wanna embrace the good, bad, and the ugly, because sometimes.

The, these things are blessings in disguise, but very few things in life go according to script, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

Tim Melanson: No, and people like to do business with people too, and the more human you appear through, you know, just being human and making mistakes. Sometimes the better that is. I mean, there are certain things. I mean, [00:18:00] you don’t want your doctor to be making a bunch of mistakes. But on the other hand, you know, in, in regular business, if you’re on a sales call with somebody and he’s sort of like, you know, dealing with, with his kid coming in, in the ho in the room, or there’s like weird things going on that you don’t think is professional, that might not necessarily hurt you, that might actually help you.

They might think, okay, well this guy’s just like me. He’s just got a lot more experience in this area that I’m looking to get into, and I like to talk to people that are normal, real people with more experience in that area. That’s what I’m looking for.

Joel Steele: Totally. Yeah. And like you said, people like to be with other people, especially today when everything’s, you know, technology based and AI and you know, 1-800-NUMBERS and, you know, virtual assistants answer the phone, Hey, no, I can help you. No, you can’t. And, uh, not only people like, you know, to work with people, but people like to work with interesting people, you know, that have, that are seasoned, that have been out there, that have interesting things to talk about, but also that are relatable.

You know, that the thing about my book that I think stands out versus other [00:19:00] personal growth. Or inspiring self-help books is, it’s super relatable. I’m not saying, well, I did this and, you know, when I climbed Mount Everest and, you know, after I got, you know, struck by lightning this happened. It’s, no, it’s all relatable stuff that anybody can really do when you view it the right way.

But that, I think people want that more than ever before and we’ll continue to find value in spending time with real people. Interesting, relatable people.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I agree. I agree. E especially the real people on the phone, like when you’re talking to a business and you know the robot answers, I, I imagine that we’re gonna get to a point probably very soon if we’re not already there, where there’ll be a lot. Lot of extra value if you are actually on the phone and talking to this person, rather than them having to go through, you know, the robot sequence to get to you.

Right?

Joel Steele: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. So, and, and those are the things that kind of like, it makes it, uh, a better playing field for the small guy, for the people just [00:20:00] getting started out. ’cause in the beginning, you’re probably not gonna have this mammoth organization, you’re just gonna be you. And that’ll actually give you a bit of an up of a leg up because you do have tools.

Now we do have lots of tools right now that can make us way more productive as individuals in business. And we can actually, you know, compete with some of the bigger businesses in a lot of ways as solopreneurs or as small businesses more than we could 20 years ago or, or, or longer than that. So, you know, that to me is exciting that that means that there’s a lot of room for new businesses to come on board right now because of this productivity that we have.

Yep.

Joel Steele: Yeah, I agree with you. You know, with the fact that what we just talked about, the human touch, you can utilize that to your advantage, but you can use technology to make you appear as if there’s more than one of you. And that can be some great technology to be able to hit people up, you know, through the phone, through email, uh, [00:21:00] through different kinds of, uh, media where it looks like there’s four or five of you when there’s really only one.

But again, you’re still giving that, that human touch and, you know, for, and knowing your, you know, business and everyone’s gonna be different. But for my financial company, I give my clients my cell phone. I tell ’em, call me anytime. But you know what they, they barely do it, but it’s like, they like to know that they can do it.

So I’m giving them my personal cell phone. I don’t give them my assistance phone number. Say, call me if you need anything. Anytime of day. If it’s a reasonable time of day, my phone will be on. And most people don’t do that because they don’t want ’em intrude, but they appreciate it. So even when you’re not actually there, you’re sort of there in the background.

And again, I think a lot of people like to know that you’re there because we talked about people. Don’t just like to be with other people, but they like to know that that person cares that they’re accessible and available. And again, that that is not only never going out of style, but I think it’s very stylish right now to be able to be accessible.

Someone calls you to not have a phone [00:22:00] prompt system that has, you know, 10 different options and it’s usually the, the one that the person’s calling for is not one of those options. Retaining clients happens when that client feels cared about. And um, and that’s just how you have to set it up. But again, there’s never been an easier time with technology to sort of wrap your arms around your clients to make sure they know that not only do you care and you’re there, but you can support them through the tools that you have.

Tim Melanson: I love that. Right on. So now you’ve been working from home for quite a while now, and I’m wondering, I mean there, there’s a lot of distractions at home. How do you set up your jam room, your home office, to a point where you. You, you’re, you’re actually productive.

Joel Steele: Yeah, it’s funny. My wife tells me that, she goes, you are oblivious. You know, you, you sit down and. She calls it, I have an island location, uh, but you might think Caribbean Islands or something like that, but it’s just the island in the middle of my kitchen. Uh, that’s my island location. And I’ll sit there surrounded by, you know, everyone’s glasses, you know, like, like drinking [00:23:00] glasses, you know, crumbs and you know, like pots and pans.

Like, I don’t care. I don’t even see that. Like I just see in my computer. What I’m working on, so I can work from anywhere. You know, I’ve worked, you know, in the car, you know, I’ve worked on planes like I’m sure a lot of people that are tuning in today have as well. But I have an office. Ironically, it gets the worst, uh, internet connection in the house.

So it’s sort of like for show purposes only. I do meet with some clients in there that’s a good physical space to meet with people. And it’s right when you come in the door, there’s a bathroom there and all that, which works well from a home office deductibility standpoint. Uh, you, you know, you, you can’t have a, you know, a sort of your dining room table and say, Hey, here’s my home office, Mr.

IRS auditor. I mean, you can try it, but it’s probably not gonna pass the smell test. Um, but I work in all different parts of the house. My favorite thing to do, working from home though. Is to be out around the neighborhood walking and talking. You know, I, I just more and more after 20 plus years, can’t [00:24:00] stand sitting here looking at a wall on the phone, just sitting here stationary.

You know, I like to move. I feel like I have a lot of energy. I need to get it out, but I’m not gonna just go for a, an hour walk in the middle of the day. There’s too many things to do, but I can walk and talk. I do a lot of client calls in the car. I call a lot of clients walking around the neighborhood.

And, uh, and they don’t know that. They don’t really need to know that. It doesn’t matter where I am, what matters is that I’m present to make sure that their needs are taken care of.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I, I am the same way. I could work, I could work in a huge mess, no problem at all. But, uh, but some people need to have a very clean desk in order to work right.

Joel Steele: Yeah. Yeah, some people do, and that’s the thing, there’s nothing wrong with any of this stuff being stationary, having a set time. Some people, they work from home. If they’re not structured, they’re, they’re gonna be all over the place. They might be watching the prices, right? I assume that show’s still on.

You know, they’re probably gonna take the, the pets out for a walk. They might do personal calls. They might realize they need to organize their [00:25:00] closet and wrap their Christmas gifts or whatever time of year that it is. Uh, but you’re right. You have to know yourself. You have to really be honest with yourself.

How am I gonna make the most out of this day? And one of the things that I personally love to do. Is get my workout done first thing in the morning so the kids go off to school. I have a, a gym in my basement. It’s one of three gyms I’m, I’m a part of. I have two gyms outside. Uh, the house, one is close to my house, one is close to my office, but I like to mix it up.

But when I don’t have a lot of time in a day, I’ll run down and I’ll be like halfway done my workout before I even am awake and realize what I’m doing to myself. But then I get that done and it’s just like, check, I got something positive and productive off my list. Gives me more energy. I don’t have to think about if I’ll do my workout later ’cause it’s already done.

And then it lets me lock in and focus on all the other things that I have to do because each day goes quickly. So if you lay it out right and don’t procrastinate and, and don’t just kind of kick things around [00:26:00] until, oh, it’s four o’clock, I need to get work done till five. You know, when you do it the right way and you know yourself, you can be super productive.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. And knowing yourself is the important part. Um, now another thing might be just also recognizing that if you don’t work, you don’t get paid. So. You know, eventually that will catch up to you if you are doing a lot of like procrastinating. I wonder why people do procrastinate though, in their businesses.

Joel Steele: I, I think there’s a sense of two things, maybe. One is that there’s a sense of like, unlimited time. Like, I’ve got time, I’ll do it later, I’ll do it tomorrow. Uh, but at some point you, you know, I don’t think that’s the most productive way to live. I, I, I am a fan of get it while it’s hot, there’s a wave. Ride it while you can.

You never know if there’s another wave coming or not. But just get it done, get it off your list because you have your list of things that you have to do. Then you have your list of things that you want to do and the more you can sort of incinerate your to-do list, you can work on your, you know, you want to do list and, and that’s what I was [00:27:00] able to do with my financial business.

I would do all the things I had to do. Then I would sort of turn my hat around and become, be an author and then work on my book. So I would work on my book at night and weekends. I’d work on my book in the morning. I would, you know, put my hat back to becoming a financial advisor and work on that all day.

Squeeze time in and, and I made it work. So you have to think about that. It’s almost like putting hats on at different times of day, but if you don’t get done these things you have to do to pay the bills and put food on the table, your day job, then you can’t really start to get into the passion projects and the other things that you really want to do.

So it’s like I said before, figure out what you need to do and then get it done. And then once you get that done, now you’re onto the bonus lightning round where you can do whatever you want to do.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then I guess maybe another thing is if the thing that you have to do is really that bad, then are you actually in the right business? Right. Because I mean, as you mentioned earlier, you’re in this business to help people and if it, if, if you [00:28:00] are helping people, then there’s some sort of satisfaction coming out of that.

There has to be like, I, okay, I get it. Not every part of my business is fun, right? It’s not all the stuff that I want to do, but there is sort of this urgency to do it because I, I, I want to get that result of helping people. Right. Do you, do you think maybe that might be it, maybe they’re just in the wrong business.

Maybe they should figure out how to make that want a business now?

Joel Steele: Yeah, that’s such a deep conversation and so when I talk about the life switch and being on or living on versus living off, living on is. You know, seeing clearly what you want to do and, and knowing your why, why do you want to do it? You know, your why is sort of like the premium octane fuel in your gas tank.

You know, if you have a why to do something, you’re gonna do it. If you don’t have a why, a real reason to get out of bed and go to work and you fire up the computer, you’re gonna struggle. You’re gonna procrastinate. But it’s, you know, this world, it’s like we grew up, went to school, it was like, okay, there’s business, there’s, you can be a doctor, you can be an accountant, you can be a lawyer.[00:29:00]

But there’s so many different areas within those spaces and around it that you wanna really take inventory of what you love doing, right, what your, what your passions are and what you’re really good at. But if you can spend your day doing things that you really enjoy doing and things you’re really good at, you are gonna have a great existence and you’ll probably make a lot of money.

But if you are doing something you’re great at, but you hate doing it, that’s not gonna work that well If you are doing something that you’re not that good at, but you love it. Again, you’re not gonna get paid that well. So you wanna marry those things together. And, and a big part of this, the starting point is to sort of shut out all the distractions and the noise.

You know, whether it’s in the car, shower, going to bed, waking up, going for a walk, really think about and tune in. What activities have you done in your life? And it can be back to when you were a kid, but what activities made you excited to wake up that next morning where you almost wanted to sleep on your clothes?

’cause you just were so excited to jump out of bed. And start to think about how can these things be applied [00:30:00] professionally, whether it’s your current job, industry, company, you name it. Because you know, they talk about getting on the right bus. You know you’re on the right bus or the right train. You know, but then are you in the right seat?

You know, you might be in the right company, wrong job. You might be in the right industry, wrong company. And so you have to be really honest with these things to ascertain am I where I, where I should be? Is there a a big change or a small change I need to make, and how can I maybe do that by trial to make sure?

Because you know, when you’re in your thirties, forties, and beyond, you can’t just quit your job because you feel it’s lacking passion. You do have to pay the bills, like you said, but. You. You really don’t want to cheat yourself by just, well, I’m doing this to get paid and one day when I retire, I’ll do the things I want to do.

I mean, that is taking years of your life and basically flushing it down the toilet. You know, you don’t wanna do that. Yes, you need to make money, but you can find a balance or at least a plan of, okay, I’m gonna do this job, but I’m gonna start to interject. Passion, I’m gonna start a business from home or, or [00:31:00] on, on the side.

But don’t just fast forward time and say, well, when I get to this point, I’ll do this, I’ll do that. And I can tell you, Tim, from experience I’ve had, so many of my clients retire and they have no idea what they wanna do because they forgot. It’s like Peter Pan who forgot, you know, when he was a a kid, right?

It’s like a lot of kids become hardened adults and they forget. What they said they were gonna do one day when they had all the time and the money in the world, they get to 65, 70 and they just, they wanna sit home. They wanna do things that are comfortable. They’ve forgotten how to have fun. They’ve forgotten what passions are and who they are, and they become defined by their name tag, which, which is sad.

You don’t want that to happen to you.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And I mean, I mean, just when you’re 65, it, it is just a different time. Like you can’t do all the same things at the same level as you could in your twenties, thirties, forties, fifties. Right. It’s just is, is what it is. Um, but that’s, I mean, that’s extremely deep. And, and I think a lot of people probably fall into the category of they’re good at what they [00:32:00] do, but they don’t like it.

And you know, that that probably ends up being that they’re very well paid, they’re stuck in a lifestyle that now is dependent on that high pay. That is the thing that they love. Sorry, that they’re really, really good at. And, uh, but, but there are ways, I mean, you know, there are people out there, there’s lots of help that can help you figure out, because most people.

Have quite a bit of transferable skills, like especially if they’re very, very good at something, there’s a good chance that there’s some fundamentals that you’re, they’re applying that make them good at that. That could be applied at something else that might be a little bit more fun, a little bit more like alive for them.

Right?

Joel Steele: Yeah, totally. I think if you are a, you know, a musician or a dancer or you know, you’re, you, you are, or were an athlete, you j you know, at some point or another, you’re gonna reach the end of the road in that, right? If you’re in like a, a gymnast or a dancer. You know, I see all these [00:33:00] kids with like, these casts on, like, your body can only take so much of that, but it’s not, it’s not the skill, right?

It’s, I’m a huge basketball fan. You know, people like Steph Curry. Uh, it’s not that he is a great three point shooter. It’s the tendencies and things within him that made him a great three point shooter that helped him transcend and change the game of basketball. He, he didn’t come out of the womb able to shoot threes.

He had this burning desire. Uh, and his, his ability to work hard and be dedicated and determined and to think that, I don’t care how, you know, short, I might be, or small I am in stature. Like, here’s what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna set the world on fire, you know, by changing the game because that’s how I think I can do it.

And it should be. But you know, when Steph Curry retires someday. He’ll find success in other things if he can take those traits within him and apply them to other places. That’s something Kobe Bryant did. Kobe Bryant became a very successful. Film producer when he retired [00:34:00] because he was creative and great at telling stories.

You know, he wrote his own story at a BA as a basketball player. He was hero the the young teenager. Then he became a hated villain, and then he turns it around, became a beloved superstar. You know, he was in control of writing this story that he was aware. He was very good at writing stories. And so everyone’s got these traits and these talents and skills, and if you can think about how you can apply them again around your day job, if you can’t do it within there, that’s huge.

And I’ll give you a personal story. You know, I, I mentioned before I’ve been doing, uh, retirement planning for 22 years. I’ve gotta tell you, it, it’s very redundant and repetitive and, and I don’t like to do and say the same thing yet. I’m, I’m in a career where I do that all the time. You know, if I have a choice, I take different, uh, route in the car to get to different places, even if it takes me longer because I can’t stand doing the same thing again and again.

I’m not a guy who can do like an hour, two hour commute in the car and not even think [00:35:00] about it. I know some people that do that, like, that’s not me. My brain’s too active. I can’t sit still. But what I did was I started writing the books. I wanted to help people more than a one-on-one basis. I wanted to help people around the world, you know, uh, understand how much value they have, that everyone’s wired for success and fulfillment and they need to flip the power switch on.

So that’s why I started writing the book and I was able to do it around the financial business. But the interesting thing, and this is a really key takeaway, is. I spent so much time on that around my business, it actually re-energized me for the financial services business. It, it, I felt appre more appreciative of it because it put food on the table.

I’m, I’m good at it, right? I wasn’t loving it at times, but I, I actually appreciated it more because said, Hey, this is a really good business. I am helping a lot of people. People do find a lot of value. And, and what I say and what I do. So doing something else, diversifying my time and using my abilities actually [00:36:00] helped me appreciate and not mind keeping going with the financial business because at one point I thought Maybe I’ll retire, I’ll quit, sell the business, and then become an author.

But instead, it’s been much better to, to inject passion around it. And like I said, it’s got me reenergized for everything I’m doing.

Tim Melanson: Uh, love it. Uh, it’s the same strategy I use. I’ve got, uh, my businesses, I, I build websites, I do tech support. I’ve got that kind of it thing. But music is always there. I’m always playing multiple times in a week. And it you, you’re a hundred percent right. You’ve got this like energizer that just. Keeps your spirit happy, right?

And then, and then on the other hand, like you say, I mean, if your main business is helping people, and it really is, I mean it really is helping people, then there’s always that that payoff at the end of it, right? You might have to do some little monotonous work to get to that point, but you’re always happy when they come out of the call going like, wow, thank you so much.

Okay, I feel better now. Right? [00:37:00] So you’ve got that going, right? Yep.

Joel Steele: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you’re in a job where people say, Hey, thank you so much, I couldn’t do this without you, like, don’t take that for granted. That’s, it’s a big deal, you know, to be able to actually help people in whatever you help people with, that’s awesome. But if you have a job where you don’t get that, it’s a thankless job and you’re somebody who needs and wants that kind of gratification, then again, maybe that is the wrong position.

E everybody has experience, you know, even if it’s just not even, uh, professional something you went through personally, right? You can either say, well, that was terrible. I, I don’t want to ever go through that or yet an experience that went well, you can take that and apply it and there’s so many different kinds of counseling and consulting you can do.

You like, I find myself doing more counseling and consulting, consulting. Than managing money some days, because that’s just what it requires. And I have such a large bank of knowledge and experience helping so many people over years and years that that sharing that information is not, let me tell you about me or tell you what I know.

It’s, [00:38:00] let me share some information that I think might be helpful for you. So everybody has this bank of experience and knowledge. The question is, can you monetize it? Can you extract value from it? Going through a terrible experience. Doesn’t have to be all bad. There’s, there’s almost always value that can be extracted from anything.

And that’s even to this day, you know, it’s like 20 plus years later, I dug up the, the horror and trauma of my restaurant business, and I’m getting significant value out of it because I’m sharing it with other people. Things that I learned, things that worked, things that didn’t. And so now it’s becoming way more valuable than just being a, a dead business in the past.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Joel, I’m excited to hear about your solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your business right now.

Joel Steele: The most exciting thing is, is the book, which is called Life Switch. Uh, it, it, it’s exactly that idea it’s living on. As you can tell, I’m a high energy guy and I feel like much of the population in the world, they’re walking around off, they’re almost like zombies. Everyone’s glued with their phone. The [00:39:00] people have the, the earbuds in, like everybody is tuned out, uh, into other things.

And people aren’t tuning into themselves, and that’s where all the answers people are looking for are at. So I’m trying to like yank out the earbud, you know, turn off the reels and the Snapchat and all this other stuff and look in the mirror, tune into yourself just 15 minutes a day. And if you do that and you really understand how you’re wired.

You can get the most out of yourself, and the only way you’re gonna get the most out of the world around you is if you can get the most out of yourself. So I’m on this mission to help people do what I’ve done. That’s to flip the switch, live on thrive, not just survive, and realize that your potential. Is unlimited and you can do anything that you really focus on.

Figure out what you need to do. Go out and do it. Understand what your passions are, which is really interesting because everybody has different passions. And then purpose. We all should be working to define our purpose. And if you do that, like forget about your [00:40:00] job title. You know, and all that. Think about your purpose.

Like if you had a personal name badge on, what would it say? I like to help people like what it, whatever it is. There’s no wrong answer, but if people have a purpose and a why, people are gonna be happier, more fulfilled, they’re gonna be more successful, they’re gonna be rich in every sense of the world.

And I just think. This world would be such a happier, more amazing place if more people were living on and not just drifting around, living off. So that’s what’s going on for me. And so far the feedback’s been really positive. It’s been doing exactly what I’ve been hoping it would do, and that’s flip switches around the world to get people to live on and live for today and be excited about whatever could happen in each day.

Tim Melanson: Wow, that is an incredible mission. That’s very spiritual too, isn’t it?

Joel Steele: Yeah. You know, it is because it’s, it’s really like who you are. And for some people that’s, I mean, that’s deep. People haven’t looked in the mirror. They haven’t really been super honest with themselves. And if you’re, if you aren’t honest with yourself. At some point, like you can’t [00:41:00] outrun yourself. And this is why some people retire and they still don’t know what they wanna do because they never dealt with it.

I’ve got a friend, real quick story. I’ve got a friend, he is in my same industry. Uh, he’s got a huge book of business. He’s, he manages over a billion dollars. And he makes millions of dollars a year, and he’s been offered to sell his business for more money than he ever would need in his lifetime. And he keeps saying no because he doesn’t know what he’s gonna do with himself.

He doesn’t know who he is besides a financial advisor. And so some people, and I like to ask this question, if you had all the money in the world that you ever needed, what would you do with your day? And a lot of people they don’t know, but my next question is, well. Why can’t you do any of that today? If you don’t plan for it and know who you are, what you want to do, what makes you feel alive, you’re, you’re probably not gonna do any of this stuff.

So you’ve got to learn how you’re wired, what makes you excited, what gets you pumped up to get bed? And start to try to live a little bit each day with that passion, with that excitement, and you’ll [00:42:00] find yourself feeling almost like electrified, like just excited to be yourself. And that that is the ultimate destination, right?

They say life’s a journey, not a destination. But ultimately the destination that you’re trying to get to is that when you wake up and go to bed, that you don’t wanna live anyone else’s life. You just wanna live your own. You want to be the best version of yourself. And if and when you get to that point, it is the ultimate high.

And that’s the goal of living, is to get the most out of this life.

Tim Melanson: I agree with you a hundred percent. How do we find out more?

Joel Steele: You can go to my website, real simple. It’s book joel steele.com. You can also Google me. You can Google Joel Steele Life Switch. You’ll see other podcasts. I’ve done interviews and articles. You’ll see my, uh, financial website. You’ll see about the book. And also my speaking career. And again, this is all newer, you know, the book only came out, uh, a couple months ago, not even.

And I’ve been giving, uh, speeches and keynotes about it. All [00:43:00] these things we’re talking about today, like, I’m really trying to like, you know, almost like shock people into, like waking up to and tuning into themselves. Uh, but my, my website is probably the best place to go. You can get the book at Amazon, Barnes and Noble.

Most places where books are sold, it’s ebook, audiobook, and of course. Hard cover, uh, but book Joel Steel is the best place to go. And one final note is if Life Switch sells 1 million copies, I’m going to personally be donating $1 million to charities, and the readers are the ones who are going to pick the charities.

So at the website, my website, you can vote for your charity by the book. But that, that is something that I have in my mind as far as the destination, like I want to be sitting down. On camera live writing out these checks to charities because I just, like I said, love helping people and together we can help out a lot more people.

Tim Melanson: Wow. I can see you doing that too.

Joel Steele: Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Right on. Well, thank you so. Much for rocking out with me today. Now I’ve got one more question. It’s probably the hardest [00:44:00] one though. Who’s your favorite rockstar?

Joel Steele: Favorite rockstar has gotta be Kurt Cobain. Uh, he, he just, you know, took something that wasn’t there and bought it to the world, and I remember it clearly. I remember watching MTV the first time ever. That smells like Teen Spirit was aired and I was just sitting there casually watching it and I was like, wow.

Like I wasn’t even like, really, you know, that into like hard, you know, metal or anything like that. And it just blew me away. And even to this day when I hear that the guitar riff in the beginning of that and just then the, the drums come in and still gets me fired up. So that, that’s, that’s my answer.

Tim Melanson: Love that. Right on. So thanks again for rocking out with you today. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks a lot, Joel.

Joel Steele: Thank you.

Tim Melanson: To listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information and we’ll see you next time on the Work At Home Rockstar Podcast. Rock Out.

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast. I’m excited for today’s episode. We have somebody who’s been working from home for way longer than I have, which is super rare. Uh, so this is gonna be a lot of fun. We’re talking to the owner and creator of Bart. Merrell International Consulting monetize your mindset and the Side Hustle Samurai.

So what he does is he helps people to identify their ideal side hustle that is unique to them and their life experiences, and create financial, financial security by monetizing what they already know and do. Love that. That is awesome because that’s exactly what people ask me all the time is how they do that.

So I’m excited for this episode Bart. Are you ready to rock?

Bart Merrell: I’m ready. Let’s go.

Tim Melanson: Beautiful. So we always start off here in a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

Bart Merrell: So. I don’t know if you’re gonna call this a success or not, but I, I pride myself on being able to monetize anything that comes across my way, good, bad, or [00:01:00] ugly. When life gives you lemons, I say, don’t just make lemonade. If you’re gonna make lemonade, build a lemonade, stand and sell the stuff. So last year, 2024, I had to have my lower left leg amputated from the knee down when I found out.

Obviously I was devastated and I, I was scared. I was like, oh, you know, crap. But when the shock and awe was over, what naturally happens in my brain is, okay, this is gonna happen. I don’t like it, but it’s going to happen. How can I monetize it? Six months post-op. I contracted with my prosthetist to help people go through what it is that I went through to help them through the process, to calm down their mind, to, to just [00:02:00] prepare and to even after the o the surgery, if things come up, how to deal with those issues. And the conversation kind of went like this.

I, I, I look back on my life sometimes and I think I was lucky. Because I didn’t think I was going to do what I’m doing today. It just kind of happened, and so I’m gonna sidetrack here just for a second to kind of talk about how it all got started. My goal in life was to become an FBI agent and chase serial killers. It didn’t happen my, we had a family friend that said. Just go through accounting once you get in the FBI through the accounting process because accounting was the easiest way in. Then once you’re in the FBI, you can apply for the different jobs and you don’t have to stay in accounting. So accounting and studying accounting, going to college, graduating accounting was just a, a means to an end, and I [00:03:00] took some time off.

I went home and helped my dad on the pig farm to help improve my Spanish. Because all of the workers on the pig farm, not all of them, but a lot of the workers on the pig farm spoke Spanish, so it gave me an opportunity. While I was down there, I had RK surgery done on my eyes. This is what was before lasik.

It had just come out and I, it, it was successful. I didn’t have glasses from age 24 till 51, one-ish. And so I was excited, I was happy. I’m gonna go in the FBI get back up to school. I start the application process in the FBI and I found out that that automatically disqualified me from the FBII. I was devastated before I got my leg cut off.

I was devastated one time and I’m, I’m hanging out at college doing my landscaping side side, not side business, but it was my part-time job and I was like, what am I gonna do? I don’t wanna go count other [00:04:00] people’s money. And a buddy of mine jokingly asked me, well, do you want to go to Japan? He had, he worked for a bungee jump company and he, they had sold a bungee tower in Japan and they needed someone to go over there and, and help them get things going, teach the staff, and, and so I contracted with the, the Bungee Jump Company that bought the tower, and I would go back and forth to Japan.

I did it for six years, six and a half years. Until I got married, just I would go back and forth. I’d spend three to six, maybe even nine months in Japan per year. Then I’d come home and I’d just do whatever I want. And so that’s kind of how it all got started. And it got started by preparedness, meeting opportunity, and then being willing to take action. And so now let’s kind of go back to me sitting in my prosthetist office. He’s working on my [00:05:00] leg, and I said, Scott, competition, I met with them before I decided on you. Your competition has a guy. You don’t have a guy. I’m your guy. said, Scott, I don’t want a job. I just want a contract with you. To help people when they need help. And so six months post-op, contracted with my prosthetist to do that, so I monetized getting my leg chopped off. I don’t want your audience to go start chopping off body parts to get a job or to get a side hustle, but that’s, that’s how my mind works. Anything good, bad, or ugly that comes across my desk, through my life, whatever, I always think, can I monetize this?

I don’t monetize [00:06:00] everything, but I always think it, can I monetize it?

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Wow. Which is probably what makes you good at what you do at helping other people figure out how to monetize the things that they’re already doing too, right?

Bart Merrell: Yes, exactly. I, I do it all the time. And so I, I have a process that I take people through that helps them just get the juices flowing.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah.

Bart Merrell: You know, that we can pitch it right now just a little bit is I have an offer for your audience. It’s 25 successful side hustles for 2025. It’s a list. That list is just a memory jogger.

It just gets you thinking and gets you realizing what is out there and it just helps you. Start thinking and you’re like, oh, well I, that’s there. Maybe I can do something like this. And it just gets you started.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Wow. Well, so now [00:07:00] funny thing is that we, we always talk about the good note and the bad note together and the thing that didn’t go as planned. Now, I’m not sure, I think they’re both the same, aren’t they? Or is there another bad note that you can talk about? Something that, that we can, uh, we can learn from.

Bart Merrell: Well, when I was in Japan, this was, so first, my first time over there was 1994. I went over there and there were these big nets, and you would see these big nets everywhere. And so I went to one and what it was, it was a golf driving range,

Tim Melanson: Oh yeah.

Bart Merrell: and it was, it was called F1, F1 Golf is what it was called, and it was ama, I mean, it was top golf on steroids in 1994. The ball would come up out of the ground on the tee already. You adjust the tee and you hit the ball, the the tee sinks down and comes back up with another ball, [00:08:00] and you weren’t renting the space on time. You were renting the space per hit, per ball.

Tim Melanson: Okay.

Bart Merrell: And you would buy this little card with a number of balls on it, and you would put it in this little machine and you would just hit away to your heart’s content.

Before you knew it, you had gone through a hundred balls. I mean, it was just, you were hitting like crazy. It was a money machine. I said, I need to take this to America. And I started doing some research and talking to people and the zeroes were just too big for a young kid in Japan doing bungee jump stuff. There was just too many zeroes behind those numbers and so I didn’t act, I wasn’t prepared. So opportunity came and I didn’t [00:09:00] act.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Bart Merrell: Can you imagine what, how my life might be different? I had, and I was the top golf guy,

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Wow.

Bart Merrell: now I’m not saying I dislike my life, I’m just saying if I was the franchise of F1 Golf in America, things would be a little bit different.

There would be a whole lot more zeros in my bank account.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, but that’s the thing. When you’re not.

Bart Merrell: a, that’s a, that’s a miss and it’s. Hey, life, life is good. I’m, I’m doing what I like to do. I’m, I’m having a good time. I’m financially stable. Everything is good. I’m just saying there is a miss that I missed that would’ve made a dramatic difference in my life because I wasn’t prepared. Or you can say maybe I was prepared, but I didn’t take action. [00:10:00] So.

Tim Melanson: I’m just wondering, so if you were to go back to that point now, knowing what you know, how would you have made it work? I mean, there’s still too many zeros, right? But how would you have, have you gotten through that challenge?

Bart Merrell: Well, so, so now I have more, more knowledge of how to raise funds,

Tim Melanson: Hmm. That’s.

Bart Merrell: and, and I, I would, I would find the money to make it happen. Which would probably mean I wouldn’t, I would lose, I would lose ownership, not complete ownership, but I would lose a good portion of the ownership. Would I have maintained 50%? I don’t know.

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Bart Merrell: know, so. So looking at those things, how would it have changed? It may have been just a big headache. You know, people often think, oh, I wish I was Elon Musk, or I wish I was Bezos, or I wish I was Mark Cuban, whoever you wish you were in the business industry, but do you really want their [00:11:00] life? Do you really want to do what they had to do to get there?

Sleeping on friends couches, sleeping in the office? Is that the life you want? If it is, great, go for it. I don’t know that that’s the life I would’ve wanted.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, well chances are if that is the life that they wanted, they would be there, right?

Bart Merrell: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Tim Melanson: You know, it’s just one of those things, right? I mean, we, we pretty much do what we are prepared to do. But now, now what, what you mentioned though is that that whole thing about being prepared for that opportunity, when that opportunity comes around, if you’ve got everything you need to take that opportunity and you still don’t take it, that’s a much bigger miss, right?

Bart Merrell: exactly.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Now, now it’s, it’s one of those things where fear kind of takes place, right?

Bart Merrell: Yep. And you have to, you have to work through fear. I that’s, that’s one of the things that stops people is taking that [00:12:00] first step. Whether it’s not understanding what opportunities they have right around them or what, you know, what’s them either not being prepared or maybe they are prepared, like you said, and it’s just fear they’re afraid to, to take that action for one reason or another.

And you have to, to overcome that. And people ask me, well, how do you do it? And my answer is, you just take that first little step and get the momentum started. And once you get that momentum started. It becomes easier, but you have to, you have to try. If you want, if you want me to share another story, I will.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well that, that’s it, eh. It’s one step at a time. It’s one bite at a time, whatever it is. Like you gotta break it down into something that you can manage, right.

Bart Merrell: Yes. And, and just take those little steps. I, one of my side hustles is dog training right now. And if I’m teaching a dog to do a trick. I don’t teach the [00:13:00] whole trick because they can’t do it. I break it down into pieces and then put the pieces together and then we get the trick.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, yeah.

Bart Merrell: So it’s the same thing when you’re starting a side hustle and doing, doing things that you don’t want to do or you’re afraid to do, I should say.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. You’re afraid to do it. I think you want to do it. You’re just afraid to do it. And so kind of that leads into the next section where we, we could talk about, you know, how do you, uh, you know, do you have mentors? Do you have people that you look up to? Do you have, do you masterminds? Like, how, how do you learn everything you learn?

Bart Merrell: So this, this started at a young age as well. I, I grew up, I, I don’t remember not having a horse. I, I grew up with horses and I, my horse, when I was about seven years old, his name was George and he was a tall horse. He stood about 17 hands high I [00:14:00] always had to have someone put the saddle on, but George was not my horse.

It was a hand me down from my brother and I went to my dad. And it, obviously it was owned by my dad. I said, dad, when is George gonna be my horse? My dad’s like, what are you talking about? George is your horse? And I said, no, dad. When is George really gonna be my horse? And so Dad thought about it a second, and he says, well, when you can put the saddle on all by yourself, George will be your horse. We’re not talking an English saddle, we’re talking a western saddle, adult western saddle. But I was excited. I, George was tied up to the back in the backyard. I ran and grabbed a chair from the table. I drug the saddle over there and I picked it up just enough to push it on George’s side, and George stepped away and I fell on my face. But I tried this. I worked [00:15:00] every Saturday after cartoons. I don’t know if you remember when we used to have Saturday cartoons, but after cartoons, George was tied up in the back and I was with the saddle trying to put it on, trying to put it on. Finally, at age 12, I was able to put it on and George became my horse.

Tim Melanson: Wow.

Bart Merrell: Why did I stick with it for five years? Because my, when I couldn’t do it, I had to go get my brother and my dad, and I saw them do it. showed me how to do it. I knew that if I just grew and got stronger, eventually I was gonna be able to do it. Contrast this to the early two thousands. I thought I was gonna be a poker player.

That was my new side hustle. I was gonna play Texas hold them, and I was gonna go to the World Series of Poker and win a million dollars. And I studied books. I mean, I studied harder than I studied in college. I read thick books about [00:16:00] poker and strategy and all this good stuff. Six months later, I looked at my online poker account and it was plus $500.

I kind of did the time, divided that by the time spent playing poker, actually playing poker, and it came out to like 29 cents an hour, 29 cents an hour, isn’t gonna pay the bills. And I gave up. I, I say I gave up, I, I put it on the back burner and I, you know, I, I don’t play poker for money, any, I mean anymore.

You know, it’s just like, it’s just a fun little thing to get together and, and, and so why did I give up after six months? But I stayed with George five years. It’s because I had a mentor, a live mentor right there. Now, if I had a mentor in the poker scene, the, the [00:17:00] outcome could have been the same. My mentor could have said, dude, you just ain’t good enough.

You need to quit playing. It could have been the same or I could have learned and done better and had a coach to help me through things. And so the difference in a mentor can be, it can help you get there faster. Save heartache, headaches, and just help you get to success quicker.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Bart Merrell: They just, they just get you there.

And so mentors are so important to help you get there, whether it’s, you know, do you think Michael Phelps didn’t have a mentor, a coach, someone to help him get to where he did? We’ve all met him in interviews. He had a mentor. Any good. Successful person that has done something extraordinary, more than likely had a mentor to help them get there and become successful.[00:18:00]

Tim Melanson: Well, and, and we do have lots of mentors in our lives that, you know, uh, help us through lots of stuff that we do. However, it may not be necessarily people that we would choose. Right. You know, we, we go, we go to friends, we go to family, we go to people that are in our lives and, you know, they help us through things.

However, uh, there’s a big difference between choosing somebody because they’re there, versus specifically going out and finding somebody who’s experienced exactly what you wanna experience and like helping, getting them to help you get there. Right?

Bart Merrell: When it comes to side hustles and things you’re doing, like in this form, you can have. Lots of negative mentors. Um, my, my best friend, his wife said to him once, why doesn’t Bart just go out and get a real job? And I’m just like, why would I want to, why do I wanna, [00:19:00] I, I say I am unemployed, a bull

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, me too.

Bart Merrell: And so have you’re, you’re exactly right.

Having the mentor who has done what it is you want to do. My mentor when I started was my dad. was a pig farmer, like I mentioned earlier, but he, he had his hands in many different things. He was part owner in a dairy farm in Idaho, which is, I’m down in New Mexico and he’s up in, or the dairy farm’s up in Idaho. then he had part, he was part owner in a mushroom farm in Utah, is where I currently live. Not by the mushroom farm, but I live in Utah. And then he had part, he was part owner in a, a produce warehouse that would bring produce out of Mexico and then distribute to stores. And that was in Phoenix, Arizona.

It used to be where Diamondback Stadium now stands. And so you can [00:20:00] imagine when Diamondback Stadium wanted the property, him and his partners made a good chunk of change.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Bart Merrell: And so having a mentor that has done that, which was my dad and I, I look at people and I talk to people and I say, if you didn’t grow up with someone like my dad or my dad. You don’t think like I do,

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Bart Merrell: and that’s why I’m here is to help you think like I do, where when something comes across your desk, your life, think, huh, can I monetize it?

Tim Melanson: All right. Let’s talk about some tools. So what are the tools that you use in your business to get success?

Bart Merrell: So obviously AI is huge right now. It’s more than just chat. There are so many AI tools that can build websites that can, uh, it can take your business. I, I have one that can take your [00:21:00] business idea. You put it in and it tells you your chances of success,

Tim Melanson: Ah.

Bart Merrell: and it gives you eight to 10 pages of information about your, your ideal client, about your unique. Value proposition, your minimum proposition. It, it gives you, you know, so a lot of people, they get, uh, analysis paralysis and they want it to be perfect before they put something out. This minimum proposition is, Hey dude, I. Get it out there, get out this, and then you can grow to perfect or close to perfect.

I had a mentor once that he, his, what he told us, he says, if you want to influence the least amount of people, ever wait till it’s perfect.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah.

Bart Merrell: And, and so this, there’s just so many tools out there that make starting a business [00:22:00] it can save you time, money, uh. Increase your, your chances of success if you just use them properly.

So AI is huge right now for what I’m using to, from anything, from content creation to business viability, to, I want a name. I don’t have a good name for my business. I want one with a.com. How? How do I find that without just trial and error? There’s just so many tools out there right now when with and, and it’s only gonna get better doing the stuff you don’t wanna do, sending out emails, you, there’s just so many AI assistants that can do anything that you can do on a computer.

I, I had to call HP Tech support the other day, and of course the first person I got was an AI bot.

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Bart Merrell: This bot was [00:23:00] amazing. I mean, there was no lag. I mean, she was just talking to me, and you have to imagine what this bot has to do. It has to take my unknowledgeable computer language, transfer that to computer language, and then talk to me and tell me what to do.

She helped me troubleshoot my computer. I was just going, wow, because I’m talking to her like a lay person. I don’t know what I’m saying. I’m just telling her in my mind what my computer is doing and we need to fix it. It was, I mean, and obviously it’s hp, they better have a dang good bot, so. It was, there’s just so much you can do to make life easier when it comes to running a business and, and even starting a business using AI tools.

And so that’s one of the things I focus on with people is [00:24:00] teach them. How to ask the right questions to, and it’s more than, like I said, it’s more than chat GPT. You’re gonna be using several different AI tools and pulling information and mixing them and putting it together into, and then you get the information you want.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I agree. I, I find, uh, like, and especially what you talked about, about the analysis paralysis situation, like that, that’s a real thing and. I mean, you know, usually, you know, a way to get through that would be to go talk to a mentor would be to go talk to somebody and sort of try to work through it together.

However, you know, there’s a, there’s a bit of fear in even in that now you’re like, you’re taking someone’s time. There’s a whole bunch of like, reasons why you might not want do that.

Bart Merrell: How much is it gonna cost me?

Tim Melanson: How much is it gonna cost you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if it’s a free person that you’re, you’re taking their time.

If it’s somebody that you’re paying now with, uh, with, [00:25:00] with ai, with these chatbots that, like you say, are super advanced already, and imagine where they’re gonna be in another 10 years, uh, you can take these ideas and you can, you can flesh out quite a bit before you even get to the point where you have to, you know, take it to a mentor.

Right. You may not even have to, you know, B, because, uh, go ahead.

Bart Merrell: sorry, go ahead. Go ahead.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, because that, that’s, that is really what it, you know, you’re gonna hear this over and over again from every mentor is just get started. So, so I mean, at least the, the chat bot can get, can give you enough confidence to say, yep, looks good.

Put it out there. You’re like,

Bart Merrell: Yeah, exactly. And, and so I wanted to side note on one thing that I learned, so. I was in a, a seminar with a guy who, there’s a, a virtual bot that he that’s created, it’s called Lindy, and this is the CEO of Lindy. And he is talking about his, his bot, [00:26:00] which is incredible. Okay. But you know what stuck out more to me than his bot and everything that he’s created.

He’s talking about and he is excited. He loves what he does. He actually said it. He says, I would’ve never guessed as a kid that I get to get up at seven o’clock in the morning and do this every day. He was so passionate about what he did, and so that’s another thing I just wanted to throw in there because you know, we’re talking about bots here and there’s some amazing things that bots can do, but I was watching a CEO and more than his.

Product was, he was excited about what he was doing. And if you can get excited about what you’re doing, that’s, that’s when you’re gonna live. That’s you’re, you know, not having to go to work just to make money. You’re going to work because you want to work.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re more likely to do that. I [00:27:00] think you’re more likely to do that in your own thing than in somebody else’s thing. Right. I mean, I know I experience it like, uh, you know, PE because I work more than, than most people work, you know, all, all the employees. And they’re like, yeah, but you’re working all the time.

You don’t, you know, what about vacation? What about this and that? And I’m, I’m just kind of like, well, you know. I really like what I do. Like I can’t help it. It’s just, you know, why do I need to escape and take a vacation for a few weeks from something that I really like to do? Right. Like, isn’t that,

Bart Merrell: And, and why do I wanna go on vacation when it like holidays? You know, why do I wanna go out there and all that when everybody else is out there? I can go out there when I want to and not have to fight the people, the traffic.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I, so there was a, I long, long time ago. I remember just, you know, in the mall on a Tuesday afternoon, right at Christmas time, nobody else was there. Everybody’s waiting to get off work and I’m just [00:28:00] doing my Christmas shopping like nothing. You know, it’s just, it’s just having the flexibility to move things around so that you’re not competing with everybody else when they’re doing their thing.

Right?

Bart Merrell: Yeah, and I’m, and I’m going to, what you said is important about you work more than most people probably work.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. I.

Bart Merrell: If you’re gonna do a side hustle, you need to realize that you’re gonna be doing, putting in long, long hours. I mean, I think I told you as we started up here that I had a late night last night and I’ve had several late nights because I’m preparing for an event that I’m putting on on Saturday and, but I like, I mean, I could, when I went to bed last night, I had to force myself to go to bed because I knew how I had to get up and talk to you. But I was, I was exci, I mean, I was going through, you know, preparing for what I’m gonna teach these people about using bots for business and I was creating stuff, you know, fun images and, and so I’m the side Hustle [00:29:00] Samurai and I was working on the image of Samurai with laptops waiting to get in my event. And it’s something I’m gonna post on Facebook today.

Tim Melanson: That’s.

Bart Merrell: are you one of my, are you one of my side hustle Samurai waiting to get in my event? You better be. You know? And I was just, it was fun. I had to say, okay, it’s almost two o’clock. I need to go to bed.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Well, I mean, you know what, the way I I’d like to think about it is imagine if, you know, you, you, you heard that I was, that I was, uh, you know, up all night playing my guitar. Or, or playing video games or whatever. It’s having fun. And then, and then I said, oh, you know what, uh, you know, I had a late night last night.

I was playing guitar all night. Would you feel bad for me? Like, but, but if you say, if you say, I was up late night last night working, a lot of people would feel bad for you. They’d be like, oh, I feel bad that you have to work that late. It’s like, I’m playing my guitar all night.[00:30:00]

Bart Merrell: Exactly,

Tim Melanson: feel bad for me.

Bart Merrell: There isn’t there songs about that? Uh, all night sleep, all day.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. So, okay, we’re running outta time. It, it’s time for your guest solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your business other than your event on Saturday, I guess.

Bart Merrell: So I’m, I’m excited about the event and this is gonna, I’ll be doing, I have 10 events scheduled for next year.

Tim Melanson: Nice.

Bart Merrell: Um, some of them virtual, some of them might. This one’s live and in person in just south of Salt Lake City. In the morning, we, we flesh out your ideas. I take people through a process. What do you like to do?

What do you need to do? What are you already doing? And then let’s take it one step further. What would you like to learn? What do you need to learn? What have you already learned? That you can get compensated by helping people through those same processes. And then, and so then we take those lists that they’ve created and re [00:31:00] we refine them until we come out with a handful of side hustle ideas that they should start with. Then we’ll take one of those and then we’re gonna take it and put it in that AI that I was telling you about, where you plop it in and it tells you, Hey, you have a 70% chance of success. Here is your value proposition. Here is your minimum proposition. Let’s get started with the minimum proposition. And it tells you, here’s the reasons why you should do it.

Here’s some things you should watch out for, and. I think my, so my side hustle Samurai stuff came into 64%. And so there’s another chat, there’s a, a chat bot that you can talk to right, right there inside this app. And I said, okay, I’m at 64%. What do I need to do to make this more than 65%? And it tells me the things I need to focus on.

And so I’m gonna be taking people through this process with their ideas, and then I have prompts to help them [00:32:00] find their ideal customer. We don’t have to guess. I can take them through a system where they know what their ideal customer fears, what their ideal customer wants. It tells them how tope it tells ’em the phrases to use.

With their ideal customer. And so your, your content is, okay, I’m making content I need to talk about, you know, mine is they don’t want a bunch of fluff. Have you ever been to an event and it’s fluff? My, my, my, I call my event an an event on this podcast and I shouldn’t have, it’s not an event, it is a workshop.

If you need to get in touch with your feelings, this is not the event to go to or the workshop to go to. We’re rolling up our sleeves and we’re getting to work where you’re leaving with your handful of ideas and a clear path the things you need to do to get to turn this into a [00:33:00] stream of income.

Tim Melanson: Wow.

Bart Merrell: And so I am excited about my event

Tim Melanson: Wow.

Bart Merrell: like I said, this one is this Saturday, but there’s gonna be, if you get in touch with me and connect with me, I have, so I’m gonna have four live events and probably six virtual events next year.

I have a virtual event coming up in November, and, and so this is, this is what I love to talk about and what I love to do, if you haven’t noticed.

Tim Melanson: So now I imagine, uh, you know, someone’s sitting there. I wonder if I’d be good for this event. Like what, what I, what I get, what I need out of it. Do you have any sort of like, profile of the person that would get the most out of working with this event and, and getting some success?

Bart Merrell: If you’re living paycheck to paycheck, you come to this event and you’re gonna come out of it with ideas and like I said, in a clear path. Then you just gotta have the, [00:34:00] like I said, this isn’t a get in touch with your feelings event.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Bart Merrell: This is a, Hey, I’m there, I’m, I need it. I know I need it, and I’m ready to do, I’m ready to get to work and do it.

And so if you have trepidation about getting started, if you need that push, you might need, you’ll, you, you’re gonna come out of the event with ideas and a path. If you need that push, maybe we need to talk a little more.

Tim Melanson: And so is that something that you offer then? Do you, uh, offer more coaching? Uh, uh, like,

Bart Merrell: If you need handheld holding, I do. At the event, there’ll be an offer that you can do the 90 day challenge. day side hustle challenge, and the goal is to get you to an income stream in 90 days. This comes with prizes because you’re gonna com be competing with the group that comes out of a couple of classes and every six months there’s prizes for those who [00:35:00] have made it to the top.

Tim Melanson: Wow. That’s cool. So how do we find out more?

Bart Merrell: You can connect with me@bartMerrell.com. Bart Merrell on Facebook. Uh, we have the, the, uh, 25 side hustle ideas for 2025. You can get that@yoursidehustle.com, and that’ll connect you with me and you’ll continue to get information about these things. My YouTube channel that I just started is the Bart Merrell, the Side Hustle Samurai, and so this is where I’m dropping ideas and talking about.

Things that people ask when it comes to side hustles?

Tim Melanson: All right. Hardest question. Who’s your favorite rockstar?

Bart Merrell: Oh, that is a hard question. So my favorite rockstar would probably be Iron Maiden. I [00:36:00] went to Iron Maiden somewhere in Time concert tour, and I was blown away. I’ve been to a lot of concerts. I’ve been to score pins. I’ve been to, uh, this is gonna probably blow your mind as well. My least favorite concert that I’ve ever been to was Aerosmith.

Tim Melanson: really.

Bart Merrell: I just, it just didn’t skid row open for them and skid, in my opinion, skid Row was way more impressive than Stephen Tyler and Aerosmith. And so, but, um, iron Maiden, I just, their show, their whole show is just such a, a stage presentation.

Tim Melanson: Cool. That’s awesome. Yeah. And I mean, is that the type of music that you listen to normally?

Bart Merrell: I listened to everything. So here’s one that I, that is, I’ve kind of stumbled onto a while, probably six months ago. Have you heard of Ren?

Tim Melanson: Re [00:37:00] No.

Bart Merrell: So when you get done, you want to go look up Ren and Hello? Hello, Ren

Tim Melanson: Okay.

Bart Merrell: Ren. I, I can’t remember what it is.

Tim Melanson: Okay.

Bart Merrell: again, this, this guy is impressive. It’s, he’s not a rock star necessarily.

I mean, but he does, do they, so he has a, a band that does some street, some street stuff. They’re called the big push, I believe, and they’ve done some pretty cool, um. Bob Marley stuff who shot the sheriff and some, they’ve done some pretty cool stuff. So it, but it’s not necessarily rock, it’s just, I mean, everything he does is, once again, is a presentation.

His music, his his videos. Yeah. Anyway, I, I blown away by him, but he’s, he’s not on, not necessarily my style of music, but I listen to everything from. From melancholy, classical to, you [00:38:00] know, I to Iron Maiden probably the hardest I go,

Tim Melanson: Yeah,

Bart Merrell: but they’re,

Tim Melanson: hard.

Bart Merrell: yeah. And country, I mean, I have, I’m a fan of country music as well, growing up on a pig farm in Southern New Mexico.

You grow up on the countryside of things.

Tim Melanson: I love that. Right on. Yeah. I saw, I, I saw Iron Maiden a long time ago as well. I have a friend who’s a metalhead and he took me to a bunch of concerts and yeah, they, they do put on a show, don’t they?

Bart Merrell: They’re one this past year. I didn’t go to it, I just watched it on YouTube. But their one like last year, or might’ve been two years ago, that was a show. I mean, it, it had a big airplane that dropped down. Oh, it was.

Tim Melanson: Oh, I didn’t see that. Yeah, I, but I’ve never seen Aerosmith, but I can, I can see why they’re, they’re very ballady. They’re probably not the most, uh, fun to watch, but I don’t know.[00:39:00]

Bart Merrell: So it was, it was, it was Stephen Tyler making sexual advances to his microphone stand, and I just wasn’t impressed.

Tim Melanson: that’s his shtick though, isn’t it?

Bart Merrell: It’s, it is.

Tim Melanson: Right on. Well, thank you so much for rocking up with me today, Bart. This has been a lot of fun.

Bart Merrell: Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate that we got connected and got things going.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, absolutely. To the listeners, make sure you subscribe, rate, and comment. We’ll see you next time on the Work At Home Rockstar Podcast. And for more information, go to workathomerockstar.com.

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast. Excited for today’s episode. We’re talking to the CEO and founder of Katmai Tech. And what he does is he helps people to connect more naturally in an ever increasingly more digital world. So I’m very excited to be rocking out with Erik Braund.

Hey, Erik, you ready to rock?

Erik Braund: Uh, let’s rock and roll, Tim.

Tim Melanson: Let’s rock and roll. We always start off here in a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be in inspired by.

Erik Braund: Oh man. I’m gonna, I’m gonna give you two, two in one. And they’re funny ’cause it’s, it’s funny how success is defined and viewed by yourself and other people.

Um, I had one year, I think it was 2010, that I found myself playing drums for Jay-Z at the Super Bowl. And about a month later I was on Conan O’Brien in the monologue because a little younger, a little skinnier and bigger hair. I got told I looked like Conan so many times. You looked like

Tim Melanson: Conan? Yeah,

Erik Braund: I made it on the show, on the monologue.

It was pretty hilarious. I actually got to play drums with his band and play a song, a Led Zeppelin song, and those things made it on the front [00:01:00] page of this, the newspaper back in Anchorage, Alaska where I’m, where I grew up. I was living in New York, but it was kind of this like. People thought I was just like famous for a second.

I was like, ah, come on. I got paid 300 bucks by CBS to be, to be a, a background drummer and I get paid to go uncoated. But it was just like such a funny, like that was viewed as he is successful and it had nothing to do with any success other than just like silly publicity, you know? Yeah. But they’re both fun stories.

Tim Melanson: Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah, and people do view success interestingly, right? I mean, it’s either money or it’s fame, and sometimes neither of those things would really get you, you wanna go and they, they’re cleaning too. You can make a bunch of money and then lose it all, and you’re still considered a success.

Right, exactly.

Erik Braund: Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Well, well then what do you consider con success?

Erik Braund: You know, right now it’s like being able to, to find a work life balance, which is pretty hard in my position right now, like startup [00:02:00] person, you know, and, um, but the work life balance to be able to. Make some time for my kids and like be able to drive them to school every day and make sure the mortgage is paid.

And there’s usually a few pennies left over after that. But I, I feel successful in that sense because I’m, I’ve got my family unit and, and we’re okay and we still get to have some fun, even though life gets very stressful. But, you know, money will make me technically more successful. If we ever get more money, it’ll, it’ll soften a few problems, but it’ll probably make some new ones.

So. Uh, I’m feeling pretty grateful right now, honestly.

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome. Yeah, I, and I agree. I think it’s all about the lifestyle. It’s about the long-term stuff and like you say, being able to drive your kids to school or actually attend their parent-teacher interviews, right?

Erik Braund: Yeah.

Tim Melanson: You know, or, or their recitals and stuff like that.

Right.

Erik Braund: Well, and I, I get to live, I live in the Catskills, so I live like in the woods on, on a piece of land where I can’t see my neighbors. And I get to talk to people all day and have a, a, like a career and a job digitally [00:03:00] and be home. It’s pretty cool.

Tim Melanson: Yep, I agree. And you know, that’s the point of this podcast really is to show people there’s different, there’s different definitions of success and depends on the one that you want, but I know that for sure, you know, working from, from home, having your own business, it’s hard.

There’s a lot to it. But on the other hand, you do have that flexibility, right? It’s not like you’re not working, you are working, you’re working probably more, but at least you can move those things around and you don’t have to ask anyone permission for anything, right?

Erik Braund: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh, the, the one funny thing is I travel a lot.

Uh, for a guy that has a video conferencing solution startup, I still travel a lot because for whether it’s investors or customers. It’s important to, to, I love to be able to meet people in person if I can, but there’s such a huge opportunity cost, so I, you know, it’s just, it’s a funny, it’s a funny balance, but,

Tim Melanson: yeah.

Right on. So now with, along with the Good note, sometimes there’s things that don’t go as [00:04:00] planned.

Erik Braund: Yeah.

Tim Melanson: We all know that. And I like to talk about those things because people need to understand that, you know, failure isn’t. What you think, you know, it’s, uh, oftentimes those mistakes are actually what propel you to the successes later on.

And we all, we all go through them. So I’m wondering, can you share with us something that didn’t go as planned, a bad note that we can be, we can learn from?

Erik Braund: Yeah, I mean, I can, I’ll give you one just directly from this company, which is, um, as we were growing a team grew too fast in certain areas in the wrong way.

In retrospect, hindsight’s 2020, right? Yeah. But if I could do a few things again there, it’s like, gosh. I probably should have failed a little faster with some, with some composition of the team when things were getting off. I’m, I’m like the kind of guy that’s like always trying to see the good in everybody and try and make it work and try and make it work and try and make it work.

And then I’m just like, oh God, it’s not working. Like, yeah. So I’ve had to, I’ve had to get a lot tougher in terms of, nope, this isn’t working out for this. We [00:05:00] have to make a change. And that literally, that took me a long time to, to toughen up and be able to do that.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I think that’s really super common with just about any entrepreneur.

I mean, we, I mean, we probably wouldn’t even be here if we didn’t have that kind of rose. Colored glasses kind of outlook, right?

Erik Braund: Yeah. And I’m like, I’m a social animal and I love people and I love talking to people, and I’m, oh, I see the value. You know, it works, but like at the end of the day, it’s like, oh shit.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and you know that too, right? I mean, we wanna say yes to everything and everybody, and you know, it’s, these are tough lessons that most of us will end up learning is that you, you just can’t, every time you say yes to something, you’re saying no to everything else. Right. And it’s, I, I

Erik Braund: used to have, back in my office in Brooklyn, I had a sticky note on my computer for like five years and it just said, say no.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Erik Braund: That was all said. I had to remind myself all the time, say no, because you know, you wanna say yes because it’s like, well, I can, it’s more work and it’s this and it’s that. But like saying no often is, [00:06:00] is really good for you too.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. And, and when you start a business too, like it’s, it’s, I mean, mentioned this before, but oftentimes we’ll start it because we’re good at, you know, this certain one thing, right?

And we’re like, oh, you know, I, maybe I’ll just cut out the middleman and, you know, be my own thing. But you end up wearing a whack load of different hats. And if you’re good at that, then you realize really quickly that you could, you could do just about anything. So anytime someone offers you something, it’s like this new shiny object that you’re like, oh, I could go in that direction now.

It doesn’t get you. Right.

Erik Braund: I mean, I’ve been on a condo board on the school board, all sorts. I actually just recently got off of both of those ’cause I kind of was like, you know, just ’cause I can do these or can add value doesn’t mean it’s what I should be doing right now because it is taking up a lot of time and maybe there’ll be time later in life to add value to those sorts of things.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, and, and maybe there won’t, and maybe there won’t

Erik Braund: be. I’d be okay with that too.

Tim Melanson: Right on. So let’s talk a little bit about practicing. I know, hey, you’re a [00:07:00] musician as well, so you know, we’re probably pretty familiar with that. I’m wondering in your business, like how do you stay up on everything?

Erik Braund: Oh, that’s interesting. Um, I’m trying to think of, everything is such a broad thing because I’m like, there’s the, how much cash do we have? How much runway do we have? What’s the status of all of these projects? What’s the status of our sales pipeline? Why is this broken? You know, like, and that I, that’s just like the first few things I can think of.

And then there’s the next level of like. You know, how are, how are the people doing? You know, are they satisfied here? What, who’s around, who’s going on vacation? Just like, you know, we have, our team is kind of around 30 people, and it’s a lot of people and it’s a lot of, it’s a lot of, we have a lot of balls in the air too, because we’re creating, we created a new technology and we’re creating a new product that has not been done before, so there is no playbook for.

How to talk about it, how to get it into the market, and we’re just kind of making everything up as we go. And, and that’s crazy. [00:08:00] It’s totally crazy.

Tim Melanson: Yep. Yeah. But how do I do it?

Erik Braund: I, I, I don’t think I answered your question though. I think I just told you all the things that work to keep track of Yeah. Um. I am, I’m just constantly, I mean, I’ve gotta go through a gazillion emails and text messages and phones and slack messages all day long.

Uh, except I do turn it off at night and I have stopped checking my email first thing in the morning from bed. That was like an important lesson for me to learn, but. I’m just constantly engaged, unfortunately is, is how I stay on top of it.

Tim Melanson: Well, I mean, you gotta do something right? Yeah. So you, you basically just have the, a process of just going through these messages one at a time and answering them all.

Erik Braund: Yeah, and I keep, um, I have an ongoing kind of Erik’s, Erik’s weekly tasks and monthly and quarterly sort of things, and I’m. C constantly going back and referencing that because if I don’t, things will inevitably fall through. That still could be important. Um, one of the best things that I’ve chosen to do in [00:09:00] about the last year was get an Apple watch and I turned off all the notifications for it, but I use it to remind myself or set timers.

20 times a day and it, I had, you know, this morning it was like, get to the office five minutes before podcast like that. It just, that reminder, while I’m having coffee, I’m making breakfast with the kids. Like, oh shit, I gotta go downstairs. Even though the calendar reminder happens, it’s like this extra vibration on my wrist that’s like, I gotta go.

’cause. Because otherwise I’ll just stay in chat forever.

Tim Melanson: Yep. Ah, it’s so funny. I, I use timers so much and it’s like, you know, my normal friends just think that that’s ridiculous. Yeah. I get, because, you know, if I’ll take a day off or, you know, you know, I’m. Like I say, it’s flexible, right? Yeah. So it’s a nice sunny day.

Maybe I’ll decide to, you know, work later on and I’ll go out and, you know, visit my friend’s pool or whatever. Yeah. And then there’s timers going off because I have to be set and recurring. Like, oh, Tim’s timer going off again. Yeah, that’s the timer that’s supposed to tell me to. Which is good from that.

Erik Braund: You [00:10:00] got a timer? For a timer? I got a timer for a timer

Tim Melanson: and it’ll turn them off. ’cause it would turn them off. Then they’re off the next day.

Erik Braund: Yeah, yeah. You

Tim Melanson: know,

Erik Braund: totally. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Timers are great. I mean, they do work right.

Erik Braund: And I, I, I, seriously, I have all other notifications turned off on the Apple Watch. I think it’s a double looking thing.

But it has added this like ease of, of reminding myself and it has made me more punctual and more on time and I, you know, that’s, that’s good for me.

Tim Melanson: Well, and, and I think the, probably the, the thing I, I take outta that is that you’ve got timers that are set intentionally, like for you, rather than the notifications that are like more reactionary, right?

Erik Braund: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tim Melanson: So you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re doing what you’re supposed to do rather than what other people want you to do.

Erik Braund: That’s right. Yeah. I’m not very good at doing what other people want me to do. I think that’s why I’ve never had a, I had one job, I worked at a guitar store from the ages of 14 to 16, but since then, I’ve never had a job.

I’ve just been an entrepreneur. [00:11:00] ’cause I think I’d probably get hired and then get fired pretty quickly. I don’t think I would do well at someone else’s company.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. I’m the same way. It’s, it’s pretty common, I think, amongst us. Especially institutions. Yep.

Erik Braund: Speaking, which, you know what’s funny too is early in the days, early in Kamai, when we’re building a fully remote team, and this was like prime pandemic time, it wasn’t on purpose, but at somehow we, I looked around, I was like, there’s 10 people here and nine of them are.

Professional or formerly professional musicians. It’s like, we might need, we might have too many musicians here. It’s just funny. I don’t know how it happened. It just happened.

Tim Melanson: It’s a criteria. Put it on your applications.

Erik Braund: Yeah,

Tim Melanson: yeah. Then you’re, you’ll have the best office band ever.

Erik Braund: Yeah. No kidding. That’s funny.

Tim Melanson: That’s so cool. So like, well speaking of jam [00:12:00] room, so, so let’s talk about your home office. How do you have that set up to be productive?

Erik Braund: Yeah, my home office is probably quite a bit different than most people’s home offices because, uh, I come from an audio video production background, so I have tons of gear ’cause we used to do large video sets and, you know, immersive audio projects.

And so I’ve, and I’ve accumulated a lot of hardware over the years. Uh. From a structural standpoint, I’m in a concrete box under the garage, so it, it sounds worse than it is ’cause I have a sliding glass doors and I get to look out on some mountains, so it’s actually quite pleasant. Yeah. And I do, I can like walk out with the dogs and I go in and out a lot.

Um, but I’m looking at you on a 16 inch little screen with a webcam on. And that’s usually where I run my virtual office. And then behind this screen is an 85 inch TV that I use as a massive computer screen. And then off to the side are some very ridiculously nice, uh, studio monitors. I have some barefoot studio monitors that are for, like, they used to sit on top of my [00:13:00] analog console and a recording studio.

They’re. Primo now I basically just listen to other people’s webcam mics on them, which is kind of funny, like the worst audio source possible on these like amazing speakers. Uh, behind me here is my, this is my former life is I used to be a music producer, and this is all the audio production gear that was down in Brooklyn and is no longer there.

And off to the side is just. Heaps of equipment that I can’t find anywhere else to put it right now. So it’s just old equipment from the audio video days. Um, wow. But I have it. You know what, it’s great because I am, I’m under the house. I’m kind of away from the house, but like, I’m still accessible and I po you know, I, I, I go upstairs to make coffee four times a day.

I very specifically don’t have a coffee machine down here ’cause I want to go, like, walk up the stairs and see a different room sometimes.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. That’s cool. Yeah. Your office sounds very similar to mine. E yeah. Especially with the, the heaps of equipment that I don’t know what to do

Erik Braund: that

Tim Melanson: as well.

Erik Braund: And I have my requisite, uh, top gun [00:14:00] poster here.

Nice. You know, I’ve got a Waynes World poster over there and a Nirvana poster behind me. You can’t see it. And those are, those are, those pretty much sum up my cultural zeitgeist actually.

Tim Melanson: So do you feel, do you feel like motivated and excited to be in this room? Is that why you have all that stuff there?

Erik Braund: Yeah, I’m around my like tchotchkes and actually when I moved this stuff here from Brooklyn, all this stuff behind me, it’s, it’s literally not even plugged in yet because I don’t have time and I will someday again. But I kind of was like, oh God, I missed my like audio gear. ’cause I used it so much and just like.

Every piece over there has like a journey of how I got it and when I got it and what I did with it, and who I recorded through it and all this stuff, and I just was like, ah, it’s so good to have it back. You know? Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. It makes you want to be in your office, which is the point, right? Yeah.

Erik Braund: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I do. I do. I mean. I spend a, an inordinate amount of time down here, but I do like being in this, in this room. It’s kind of like a teenager’s bedroom, honestly. It like with the band posters on the wall and stuff.

Tim Melanson: [00:15:00] Yeah, I have a disco ball effect. Good.

Erik Braund: Perfect.

Tim Melanson: Stupid stuff. Right?

Erik Braund: Well, and I have two dog beds.

’cause I have two little Pomeranians, Batman and Gonzo. And they’re very cute and they spend a lot of time down here with me, so.

Tim Melanson: Right on. Right on. Cool. So let’s, uh, let’s talk about the virtual space. ’cause I mean, that’s your business, right? Let’s, let’s kind of touch into that like, ’cause I mean, you’ve got your physical office, of course, but tell me about your virtual space.

Erik Braund: So, um, Kat, my, the company set out to, to make a technology, um, where, where people could be together in a virtual space on live audio and video, and have those virtual spaces be really high quality. So it’s, um, you know, you think about, I have like an Apple Vision Pro in here, and you think I, I keep this here literally as a $4,000 prop.

Because there was a, there was a, a movement a few years ago where Meta said everybody was going to be [00:16:00] together in a headset and interact with each other and work with each other and socialize with each other and look like cartoons of each other. And we were all gonna sign up to, you know, this isn’t the meta one, but we’re all gonna do this all day long.

Right. Yeah. And I think that’s a dystopian nightmare. And so, yeah. We set out to do something different. Um, we built what we call immersive video technology. And what that is is a first, a first person 3D experience where you can move and you can see other people live on video. And you can put people in different rooms and environments and have private conversations and public conversations.

And you can have spatial audio where it sounds, as you get closer to someone in a hallway, you’re like, you hear them a little louder and it just starts to feel natural. And we did this because this, the genesis originated at the very beginning of the pandemic, which was, oh my gosh, we can’t be in a room together.

What are the tools? There’s zoom, there’s teams, what I call traditional video conferencing, and there’s not much else, right? There’s, there’s squares of faces that are static without [00:17:00] an environment. And I think you’ll appreciate this just from the music and creative field, like the space you’re in matters so much to the conversation you’re having with someone.

It’s like in a conversation, there’s the people and there’s the place. Yeah. And the place, it informs the conversation or it becomes a part of the memory, or it becomes a part of the conversation, right? Like you’re in a cafe, there’s people going by. That’s a much different conversation than like, we’re at home on a static video grid and it’s only us.

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Erik Braund: So. So that’s a, a long-winded way of saying we, we made this technology and the purpose was to have a more natural digital interaction. And what happened was, um, we built a very small team spread from Alaska to New York, to Florida, to the Netherlands and in Canada. And this is like early pandemic. And we just started spending time in our software while we were developing the technology.

’cause the first iterations of the technology would blow up a very nice computer. Exactly. We, we melted a few PCs in the early days, right. Um, so we were iterating on the [00:18:00] technology and then we realized, oh my God, we have an incredible, like, team building software here. This is just like being in an office together.

Yeah. And we have a, a creative director who’s just like a mad scientist, genius, this guy Pete, who knows how to take 3D environments and push them very far and make them very high quality. And also has a, a background in architecture and philosophy and so. It’s like we spent a lot of time working on these environments and feeling what it’s like to be in these, these virtual environments.

Um, it’s, it’s a, it’s a science place to a digital conversation, but you don’t have to have a headset on and it doesn’t look goofy and cartoony. It looks pretty darn real. It’s more like a. PlayStation four, PlayStation five type graphics, uh, that the engine can power. And so what we have today is a virtual office product that we sell to people.

Uh, it’s very inexpensive, uh, very accessible, and it works on billions of devices. So we spent years of r and d to say. Hey, this is a pretty like high tech thing we’re asking your computer to do. Upload [00:19:00] lots of video, download video, render 3D engines, have all these permissions going on. Um, and now it works really well and it works on a lot of devices, literally billions of devices.

And so we’re, we’re new into taking the product to market, but what it’s doing is it’s allowing teams to kind of. Be remote work from home, work from anywhere, but, and, and feel like they have returned to the office. Like, yeah. The things that people want from the office is to be social and to be seen and to see, right?

It’s like visibility is two ways you want to be seen and you want to see people and depending on your role, right? You want, like famously Zoom, the CEO of Zoom said. At, I think it was like 23, 24. You have to come back to the office to his employees. You can’t run a company on Zoom. There’s no, there’s not enough productivity, there’s not enough culture.

You gotta come back and you’re like, wait a minute. That’s the Zoom CEO saying this Uhoh. Yeah. And so we’re in this like total white space where there’s like traditional video conferencing and there’s in real life and we’re trying to occupy the space between, [00:20:00] and look, we, like we were talking about earlier.

You know, it’s a, it’s a strange concept, and when I show it to people, they either get it instantly. Or it takes 30 minutes or it takes 60 minutes to kind of get ’em there. Yeah. Yeah. And then they’re, then once they’re there, it’s like, how could this apply to my organization? And we have some companies that adopt just like instantly because it’s solving real life communication problems.

My favorite quote from one of our customers is, uh, cap my turns. Next week’s, 30 minute meeting into today’s five minute conversation. And when you let that sink in, about how many 30 minute meetings and 60 minute meetings do you have next week? And by the time you have that meeting next week, it’s like, what were we talking about?

Where are we with this? And in what CAP enables is like, Hey, I’ve got an idea. I can go talk to Tim right now. He’s across the, I see him there, he’s there. He, I don’t even know where you are physically. Doesn’t matter. ’cause you’re in our office and you’re available and we can chat. And it’s like. It’s pretty remarkable.

So we have some fun statistics around reducing calendar clutter and shorter meetings [00:21:00] with less people, and it’s just, I don’t know, it’s, it’s really interesting stuff.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I think it’s a really cool idea. And, and I mean, I saw a, a quick demo of it before, and I’ll try to explain as much as I can, but one of the, one of the, uh, one of the disadvantages that we talk about on this podcast quite often about working from home is the lack, uh, of comradery.

The lack of like water cooler talk, that kind of stuff, right? I mean, you’re, you’re basically sitting in your office and Okay, fine. I, I think many of us, depending on your role, I mean, we have Zoom calls. We, you know, we, we talk to other people there. But, um, what this is doing is it allows you to be, it’s, it’s, it’s like a, a video game where you’re walking through a, a, a hall and it’s, this hall is a bunch of offices and in each office you see a, you see their video camera.

Of them sitting at their office doing something else, right?

Erik Braund: Yep. Yep. And so you

Tim Melanson: can, you can sort of see them and they’re like, oh, they’re there, and you can walk into that office and interrupt them, [00:22:00] right? Which is literally the same as being, being in a real office. So of course, it has its advantages and disadvantages.

I mean, one of the things that I don’t like about the office is getting interrupted. Yeah, but I mean, the, the alternative is you just turn your camera off so people don’t interrupt you at that particular time. Yeah. But, uh, but the big advantage, I think, for a lot of, uh, businesses is that they like to see their people sitting at an office and doing some work, right?

Yeah. And so I, I think it’s a really, really cool idea, especially if you wanna build a team of people and, and have that water cooler type thing where you can actually see people in your office and go hang out with them. I think it’s really cool.

Erik Braund: It is. Thank you. And, and I think that was a great description and it, it really like.

It’s funny to think about culture. It’s like what is, what is culture at a company and really what do, what does it mean and how do you get it? Yeah. And what I’ve learned is culture is kind of built through, like having a moment to shoot the shit with someone and talk about [00:23:00] something that is not the project and the agenda of the meeting and, and that’s not wasted time at all.

It’s like. Finding a rapport with someone, finding a common thread, and if you force that, it’s just weird if you get hired at a company and schedule a one-on-one with someone and just to get to know them for 30 minutes. It’s just weird. I dunno. But like if you bump into someone in the hallway before you know it, you’re talking about the weather or whatever, and then it’s like.

No, you’ve had a chat. You’ve had a chat with someone, and that is part of culture building and like continuing to have some sort of culture.

Tim Melanson: Yep. Yep. Okay. And then, you know, that kind of adds a little bit more, uh, texture to this. So, so basically what I’m hearing then is that potentially your team meetings would be sitting in a, whatever, a, it would be a, a room down the hall and instead of just clicking on a meeting invite, you actually have to.

Walk through the hall in, in, in this video game. Yeah. And go sit in that meeting. Yeah. Takes two minutes.

Erik Braund: Sorry. It takes you two seconds. [00:24:00] You use your keyboard or your mouse or whatever, and you walk to the conference room and, and people see you walking around like the o Our office is bustling. There’s 25 people in the virtual office.

When a guest comes in, the question will be like. Where am I and what is this? You know? Yeah. And that’s like, it’s a fun moment and it’s, it, oh, it’s so cool. There’s a, there’s a more, I, it, it never gets old for when I am on the other side of someone greeting them for the first time. So there’s two ways we can bring someone into cat.

I, we can drop them right into the meeting so we don’t have to teach them anything. So like, you don’t have to learn what a virtual office is and what a 3D environment is and what’s going on. You’re just positioned around a table. It’s very frictionless, very seamless, very easy. The other one is drop them into the lobby and I greet them.

And so they load in and they see an office and they see my face and I welcome them. And I say, okay, first thing you need to do is press and hold the up arrow. And they propel forward. And the the, the look is always like. It is like, it’s like this. Oh, what? And then it’s, they see 20 other people in offices having [00:25:00] conversations.

It’s like, are, are what’s going on there? Are those real? It’s like, yeah, those are real people. They’re all at home. They’re all in their home office. They’re just here. And it’s like such a fun unlock to do that for the first time with people.

Tim Melanson: Cool. I love this idea. Okay, so, um, I know, I mean, we’re already talking about your business, but is I always give people the floor for their guest solo.

So tell me what’s exciting in your business right now?

Erik Braund: Oh boy. What’s exciting right now is we, we put our product out, um, earlier this year and we thought that we would be kind of digitally marketing to small, fully remote companies. We thought that would be our tip of sphere. First customer easiest, decision maker, add value the quickest, um, you know, hybrid work and enterprise work.

Like, and back, you know, enterprise is generally back to the office or mostly hybrid, somewhere in there. Um, we thought that would come a bit later. And what we’ve found is some very large global companies seeing our solutions saying, oh, we want this. And we’re like, oh, wait, what? Understand. Yeah. And so, [00:26:00] so it’s kind of like.

Okay. But I’m just like thinking back, you know, one large company that wants to adopt, you go through like a six month process to meet their InfoSec requirements and their data and their privacy and retention requirements. Then you go through a legal process to make sure you can be legally adopted and then you get the green light one day and you’re like, oh, okay, so now, now people at your company can use this.

Now we go socialize this more and, and get them here because six months has gone by from when they said, can we have kamai to. Can we use it? And so, so that’s, we actually just made it through that with a huge company that is famously returned to office. And what’s cool is there’s value in our product and platform because even though folks have returned to office, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, they’re still on video calls all day long because their team is now dispersed all over the world.

Yeah. And they’re just video calling people in other offices. And so what we’re, we’re finding pockets of. Um, running things like office hours, so like a structured first come, first serve office [00:27:00] hours for like managers to, so people can get questions answered quickly. Um, we have something that’s kind of an alternative to a, a costly offsite where it’s a, it’s a digital offsite, but it’s more interactive and there’s more to it than just doing what we’re doing with squares of faces that are static.

Um, the, we have an interview loop thing and so there’s just lots of, lots of things that happen in an office, so we’re not expecting. Every customer to use it the same way, and they don’t. We have some people that are on Monday through Friday, nine to five. We have some people that only have sales meetings in it, or only have a team meeting once a week in it, but it’s still like this.

It’s this connective place for a richer conversation and a more, honestly, the one thing, the feedback we get is. It just feels more natural. Yeah. And like that’s a hard one to quantify and give a cool scientific data fact on. I dunno, people said it feels nicer. Yeah. And so then that means some people are willing to make the jump and use CAPM as their primary communication, uh, platform.

Tim Melanson: Well, so then how do we find out more?

Erik Braund: Uh, visit [00:28:00] www.catmytech.comandthatiskatmaitech.com. I grew up in Alaska. Kamai is a national park full of bears and salmon and you know, a very mountainous region and it’s kinda a little throwback to that.

Tim Melanson: Hopefully these office, well, actually, you know what I mean, you could probably put bears in

Erik Braund: office.

You probably should, or at least in Kamai there, if you look it up, there’s this viewing station for tourists. Up on this big fence with tons of bears jumping into eat salmon on this waterfall. And I’m like, oh, we could probably build one of those. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Why not?

Erik Braund: Yeah, that’s the cool part. Right on. You know, I gotta, I gotta call out your, make a bad note.

Sound better. I love, I loved seeing that because, uh, my favorite guitarist in the world is actually coincidentally, a guy I got to play the band with for a long time. This guy, Brandon, er, he’s the tastiest guitar player in the world. He taught me 20 years ago. He is like, listen, you hit a bad note. You just [00:29:00] stick with the bad note.

You keep hitting the bad note. You make sure the distortion on, and then you bend it up over time. And then it sounds like it was on purpose. It’s a, it’s a bad note sounding better.

Tim Melanson: So Awesome. Yeah, I had a similar. Uh, advice and the the guy said, yeah, if you hit a bad note once, it’s a mistake. But if you hit it twice now it’s on purpose.

Exactly.

Erik Braund: Yeah. Love

Tim Melanson: it. Well, and, and actually I was gonna ask you that, that, that is one of the last questions that I, that I do ask is, who’s your favorite rock star? I think you just answered.

Erik Braund: I mean, like the guy I wanna meet the most and hang out with is Dave Grohl. And like I, I got into music because of Nirvana.

I started playing guitar at for 12 because of Kurt Cobain. I got a drum set because of Dave Grohl. You know, I’m like, even yesterday I went on a long drive and I just was listening to nevermind. And you know, I’m just like, I’m a grunge guy. Um, I’ve gotten to meet tons of rock stars and celebrities over the years from being a video producer.

It’s, it, it lets you [00:30:00] down nine times outta 10. It just always does. So, but I, I hear that Dave Grill’s the nicest guy on rock and roll supposedly, right? But, yep. Um, no, I love like arena rock. I love spectacle. Like I’m, I’m gonna go see Nine Inch Nails next week. Like, I love big shows and arena rock and stuff too, so.

Yeah, probably, probably Dave Grohl.

Tim Melanson: I hope you get to meet him. I’m looking forward to, to hearing you story. I’m hanging

Erik Braund: on, I I think there’s a chance someday. I

Tim Melanson: think there’s a chance. I’m actually surprised you haven’t yet. Uh, I mean, you’re right in that space, right?

Erik Braund: Totally. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Maybe you’ll get ’em to sponsor your company.

Erik Braund: You know, I we’re actually, I’ve, I’ve been soliciting Conan O’Brien, I’m trying to get on his fan podcast. Mm-hmm. Because I’m like, I even pitched, I was like, I was on your TV show 20 years ago. Let me on. We’ll, have a fun time.

Tim Melanson: Well, fingers crossed. I hope it happens, man. That’s awesome. Thank you. This has been an awesome interview.

Thank you so much, uh, Erik, for rocking out with me today. [00:31:00]

Erik Braund: You, you, you got it, Tim. I appreciate it and I hope to talk to you again.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. And to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information and we’ll see you next time on the Work At Home Rockstar Podcast.

Erik Braund: Peace. Peace.

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast. Today I’m excited for today’s episode. We’re talking to the founder and CEO of Doriot, and what he does is he helps every day individuals become early stage startup backers through venture staking, and that’s a model that he created.

To make venture investing accessible to everyone. So what he does is he shares practical funding strategies. He teaches the realities of startup ownership and he guides people through building their own financial stake in the future from the comfort of home, which is awesome. So I’m excited to be rocking up today with Gerry Hays.

Hey Gerry, you ready to rock?

Gerry Hays: Am Tim, thanks for having me.

Tim Melanson: Brilliant. So we always start off here on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

Gerry Hays: Uh, well, I’d say the, the most inspiring thing about all this that I’m doing, uh, currently with Doriot is that everything came from my own imagination. When I started thinking about this, uh, the, the, the, this started as a 25 year journey. Just a thought came in my head [00:01:00] when I was doing my first startup and it was really hard to raise venture capital and it stuck with me.

And then fast forward to 2018, um, I wanted to go back and circle back to focusing on this particular issue. And I’ve been working at home since working on this. Um, but what I was imagining happening in 2018, it’s now starting to unfold today. So the inspiring thing about this is that entrepreneurship, no matter where you are at home or.

Wherever you are in the world, it starts with that mental game that, that uh, the imagination of what you wanna see happen in the world, what you wanna see built in the, uh, the world. And if you can get into that framework and that thought and that feeling around that, then think everything flows from there.

So anyone can do this.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, definitely. Uh, well, anyone can do this if with your help, right?

Gerry Hays: Well, any, any, the, the, the mental game is, is something that we can empower ourselves with. So I can teach people, you know, kind of, I teach, you know, also, uh, you [00:02:00] know, um, frameworks around this. But this is a, this is a game. Entrepreneurship, uh, self-sufficiency. It’s a game that anyone can succeed at. Um, if, if you’ve got it right between the ears.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I think so too. So now. There are some things that don’t go as planned though on the journey, and we like to talk a little bit about the bad notes as well as the good notes. And so I’m wondering can you share something that did not go as planned and, and how you’ve recovered from that?

Gerry Hays: Oh, well, gosh, even in, in this particular, um, instance, it’s been seven years in the process and, uh, I’ve not been able to pay my bills. I have, it’s, this is a situation where. This has required a lot more r and d than what I could personally afford. So there’s been a lot of setbacks in that, in that, uh, you know, sort of situation.

Um, but, but I wanna turn back to the positive of this. And that is, so when you have this beautiful, amazing idea of what you wanna build in the world. Right. What you wanna see happen is [00:03:00] gonna be in the, in the future at some point. We don’t know how long that’s gonna take. We don’t know when it’s going to unfold.

And in between that is that gap. And that gap is where you have to fill that with faith and this belief that it’s going to happen. It’s just a matter of you doing your daily thing to get there. And as long as you can stay in the game, um, and you’re gonna hit a lot of roadblocks. Trust me, I’ve had a lot of roadblocks to get to where we are today, but if you stay in faith, um, it will unfold in your favor.

You just have to kind of work through those hard situations.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, that’s uh. Very similar to my story as well. It’s, uh, the, the faith part is just, it’s, it’s fascinating because, uh, the, uh, the, the, the fear of like, you know, it just not working out the way you need it to work out. You know, not having enough money to pay for like, next week’s bill, right? That’s coming out.

Or, or even like going into credit card debt and all [00:04:00] that kind of stuff is, is, is real. But on the other hand, you know. When you listen to, you know, all these entrepreneurs that have been through it, you find that many of us all have the same story and it’s just like you just stuck with it. Um, but now can, can you, can you share with me like maybe something like practical that you did when things were not, you know, you when it, you were worried, right?

Like, was there, like, was there like something that you did like a, like a, like a, a practice that you have that you do. When things are not working out well, that kind of gets you out over that hump.

Gerry Hays: Yeah. And, uh, for me in this situation, right, because what we’re doing is just, it’s just, it’s so hard. Um. When I get these setbacks and I get a lot of them, I get a lot of rejections. And, and so I have two, I have two practices. One is, is that, so when something happens to me, I just go, oh, is that so? So [00:05:00] I, I don’t attach emotional drama to it.

Just, okay, is that, so sometimes I’ll just go, that’s the best thing that’s ever happened to me. Right. Because that means, okay, that door’s closed, but that means another door is going to open. So it keeps me in the framework of just forging ahead. Okay. Uh, what we do, Tim, as entrepreneurs and, and a lot of times we do this in life, and I, I try to tell this to younger people, is that if you.

Um, you have this vision of what you want, but then you’re going to dictate the terms and how you’re gonna get there, and then those terms don’t happen the way you expected them to. You could create a lot of drama and you could create a lot of fear in that. Don’t worry about how you’re gonna get there.

You just keep forging ahead and so as things come your way, you’re more. Like flowing with it. Oh, okay. That’s not, that’s not the path, but there’s gonna be another path that’s coming because I know I’m gonna get to where I’m gonna go. I’m just waiting for that new path to unfold. So you’re really, you’re trying to kind of flow with it, not try to fight it.

Tim Melanson: Wow. [00:06:00] Yeah, I, I, I feel the same way. Like when something bad like happens, you know, I’m always sort of like looking at that. As, okay, something good is coming out of this. I know it. Right. And you’re, you’re kind of like training yourself to look for it. But I’ve also found that the opposite is true too. ’cause I, I, you know, I found myself on this massive rollercoaster of emotions where something good will happen and I’ll like over celebrate it, you know, and something bad happens and I, right.

And so it’s almost like you have to, like, when something good happens, you have to go kind of like, wait, uh, okay, I’ve gotta be careful here. Right. Have you noticed that too?

Gerry Hays: Yeah. And that’s, that’s a really good point, Tim, because you have to use the same framework for when good things happen. Is that so? Right. Um, because you, it, it, this is all a flow. This is not okay. You don’t stop. Progress doesn’t stop. When you have this great thing happen, you gotta go to the next thing, right?

Because, and to go to the next thing, you have to like, release this and move on. Thank [00:07:00] this and move on. Good or bad. Be grateful for it. Thank it. Uh, because it’s now a part of your journey, and then move on.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. Because, uh, you know, the part of this journey is that kind of up and down of not only emotions, but also income too. Like sometimes you get these big windfalls and then followed by a drought. So if you kind of like over celebrate and spend a bunch of money that you just made, now all of a sudden you’re in another drought.

Right.

Gerry Hays: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, uh, you know, so you’ve got your income issues, you’ve got, you know, how are you gonna find your customers? How are you gonna, there’s a whole, uh, array of things, right? I just keep hammering back to this point. You know where you are, where you’re going, you know where this is. Taking you and just stay even keeled through all of it and enjoy every bit of it, because it’s a magical process.

You said something earlier I just want to hit on is that that, uh, many entrepreneurs have the same sort of story kind of thing. I call it going through the furnace, right? Because you [00:08:00] know, every entrepreneur is gonna have to go through that furnace, and most people are afraid of going through that furnace, but.

Through that furnace process is where you really start to identify or start to, to really see who you really are, what you’re really capable of. And we are, as human beings, we are capable of so much. It’s just that society is saying, you’re only capable of doing these things. You must have this, this, this, and that.

But that’s a, that’s a rule, a set of rules that. Certain people put out there because it benefits them. As entrepreneurs, we have to make our own rules and we have to see what we’re truly capable of. And, um, but to, to do that, you have to put yourself through a hard situation. I, I just, no one’s gonna get through this life without going through a furnace.

That’s my belief.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I agree. So, and, and I mean, you mentioned faith, so I, I think so I, I’m, I’m sort of like going through these, uh, lessons of trying to teach my son even some things about faith. And uh, and one of the things [00:09:00] that I think is a misconception is that I, or I don’t know if everybody understands that faith doesn’t necessarily mean.

You know, it’ll all work out and I’m just gonna sit here and wait for it to happen. Right? And I think that that is what some people think faith is. They think that it’s luck, right? It’s, it’s like, oh, you know, I’m just gonna sit here and it’ll all work out. And you know, the reality is that it’s pretty much exactly the opposite.

It’s like, I have faith that what I’m about to do right now is going to get me to where I need to go, so I need to do something right. Does that make sense?

Gerry Hays: Yeah. Uh, faith is the spiritual empowerment, but I would say worship means execution, right? Or execution is the worship. You have to have faith and you have to worship. So you’ve gotta do, you’ve gotta act. And George Doriot, the, the namesake of the, the company today started, he, he has a great quote.

It was without action, the world would just be an idea, right? So [00:10:00] your actions and your execution, that’s your worship.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, also sowing the seed, right? And all that stuff. Like I, I know that, uh, you know, that there’s a, you know, just a conversation I was just having like. It’s just so crazy with my son about how, uh, you know, w we have to enjoy life o obviously. I mean, there, there is, I mean, you, you know, you don’t want to spending 24 7 working, working, working, working and grinding and grinding and grinding.

Like, uh, you know, what kind of life is that, right?

Gerry Hays: yeah.

Tim Melanson: mean, we could be gone tomorrow. And, and then what? Right. So they have to find your joy in what you’re doing. But there also is a, a time when you need to be sowing the seed. And then there’s also a time when you need to be harvesting. Right. And, and, right.

And, and I

Gerry Hays: You gotta have both.

Tim Melanson: you have to have

Gerry Hays: have both. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Right? And, and I think that, I think that maybe in, in, in what I’ve noticed anyway, is that it’s like there. Actually, [00:11:00] there’s even seasons of it, of like sewing and, but also, you know, in the early part of your life, even there’s gonna be a little bit more sewing than there is gonna be harvesting, I think.

And then maybe in the later part of your life, if you do that properly, then there’d be more harvesting than sewing. Do you, do you find that too?

Gerry Hays: I think that’s the, the natural order of things, right? I think the, so the sowing of the seed’s an interesting one. What does that actually mean? Because we could geek out on that altogether, right? What does that actually entail? Um, and then, but your point, if you’re not ready to receive. What is created.

You’re not ready to receive the harvest, then it’s never gonna happen. You have to be willing to give of yourself, give of your time, give of your energy, but you also have to be receptive of people’s time, energy, and even their customer, even them as a customer or an investor. You have to receive that as well.

It’s all part of the organic process. You can’t have just all giving or all taking, you know?[00:12:00]

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, because, yeah, because I think that that’s another good point too, that there’s, there’s gotta be a certain balance with it. Because if you’re, I mean, I, I, I’m pretty spiritual as well, more of like universe rather than religion. And, uh, and when I think about it, if is that you’re teaching the universe how to react to you, I guess.

And so if you are constantly not taking anything, right, you’re not, you’re not harvesting anything, then you’re basically teaching the universe that you don’t want it.

Gerry Hays: Yeah, you’re

Tim Melanson: there’s gotta be a little bit of that. Yep,

Gerry Hays: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the universe is gonna respond to who you are, and if you’re just pushing it away, the universe isn’t gonna give you something you don’t want.

Tim Melanson: mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. And so there’s gotta be some sort of like, uh, you know, balance between that, where you’re taking some, but then the opposite is also true. If you’re constantly taking, taking, take, taking, you’re never giving, well then eventually that Well’s gonna dry. Right? Yeah. Wow. So that’s a lot of the mindset, I think.

Right. [00:13:00] And, and I don’t know if all this stuff is really, I, I, I wish it was taught in school, but it isn’t really Right.

Gerry Hays: It is not it. It is not. Have you ever heard of a, a man named Neville Goddard?

Tim Melanson: No, I have not.

Gerry Hays: You should look him up. It’s interesting. But he has framed this in a way that is, he’s frames it, he frames it in the, in the sense of the, the New Testament. But he was in New York City in the forties and the fifties, sort of as a mystic.

Okay. And he didn’t really talk about the Bible as a historical thing. He just talked about these are this, this process, what we’re talking about, plays itself out, out, over and over and over again. Okay. And it’s just this is that you have an idea of something. Right. We talked about that. You, you fertilize that idea with an emotion, not your seed.

You’ve just planted the seed, right? But you’ve gotta have a very strong emotion around that, otherwise that seed won’t take. Because if you just say, well, I want a car, you don’t really care. That seed’s not gonna take. But if there’s a particular car that you want, you can feel yourself driving it. You could feel, you know the color, all of that, right?

You [00:14:00] sow that seed, then you walk away knowing I’ve planted the seed, it’s going to come at some point in the future. And then you walk knowing that that’s gonna happen. And, and then when it does happen, right? Not through any work, right? It just, you’ve already planted the seed and you’re fertilizing the seed because you’re not, or you’re, you’re, you’re walking in faith, you’re not doubting it, right?

And you’re taking those actions to help you get there. Then it shows up and then you’re like, well, how did this happen? And then you look back and he was, he, he calls it the bridge of incidents. Like, yeah, that happened. That happened. That happened. That happened. But you could never have scripted it to get to that point.

So he says that process of creation plays itself out over and over and over again. And that’s what many of those stories are about.

Tim Melanson: Wow. That’s really cool. Yeah, and, and it has all those aspects of it, right? It has the aspect of the desire. It has the aspect of actually doing something and not just [00:15:00] hoping it’s just gonna magically show up. Uh, and also having the faith that when you plant the seed, I mean, it’s just the same thing as in the garden when you plant the seed.

I mean, you can’t just sit over top of it and look at it, right? Like you have to have some faith that, you know, the, you know, nature’s gonna take its course and it’s gonna, it’s gonna bloom, right.

Gerry Hays: exactly. It’s all natural. It’s all all organic and we’re a part of the same process that you know of planting seeds in the garden. We really are.

Tim Melanson: Now, I think like a lot of the planting seeds I think in, in business has to do with the, the marketing side of it, the sales side of it, right. You know, finding people to talk to. And I think that nowadays, I, I think nowadays it’s, it’s, I don’t know, is it easier? Is it the same? I don’t, I, I don’t know. But, but it seems as though with social media, we are connected to a lot more people.

And, you know, the ability to find an audience is, is, is so much easier than it used to be. However, the flip side of that is that [00:16:00] because it’s easier, everybody’s doing it and the competition is higher. So you have to kind of, sort of stand out somehow. And how do you do that? Or how do you approach, you know, making those fans.

Mm-hmm.

Gerry Hays: Yeah. And, and, uh, to boot. Now with ai, the, you know, you’re flooding the system with content at a scale that none of us have ever been able to see before. So there are so many more voices now, and I’m just looking at, in the venture capital space, there are the, the voices have just increased, uh, exponentially because of ai.

People just. You know, pulling content and, and flooding LinkedIn or whatever the case may be, making our job incredibly hard. I, I would say this, that in any business that you do, um, you start. Very small, and you find your tribe. You, you just, uh, okay, you’re not gonna scale to millions and millions of people overnight.

Fine. Find your tribe. [00:17:00] And, and that is a process of iteration, learning what connects people to this, how. How this could, can connect to them and then they will start spreading that word. Uh, and, and that’s how you really have to build a sustainable business. ’cause you’re building, you’re building with people who are aligned with your principles.

Our principles are shared risks, shared information, shared prosperity, and I think that’s a message. That gets better told from human to human that, you know, join, we’re doing this for these reasons or whatever, but it’s really about starting getting a base and working from there. And that requires, um, a lot of person to person contact, a lot of engagement with individuals doing things like this.

Right. You know, me coming out and talking about. What we’re doing here. Right? That’s what this requires. Um, but you can get there. It’s just, um, it’s hard to get your big, huge group of fans overnight through social media.

Tim Melanson: [00:18:00] Yeah, and uh, like I think, I, I think that what you mentioned there is that the referral base, like I, I know I’ve spoken to quite a few people on this show, and most of us actually. Most of our business comes through referrals. It comes through other people telling people about it. And you know, I feel like that is also not necessarily something that is obvious to a lot of people.

A lot of people think that, oh, I’m just gonna throw money at it and I’m gonna, you know, get ads and all that kind of stuff. And they’re not necessarily getting the results that they expect to get. And I think that’s kind of the reason why, is because when I, when I think about it, even in my own life, think about yourself as a consumer, like.

Do you really respond super well to like the billboards anymore? Or do you kind of like go on social media and say, Hey, does anybody have a guy? I’m looking for a guy. Right. Or a girl. Right. You’re, you’re looking through your own network for people that do the things that you’re looking for nowadays, right?

Gerry Hays: Yeah. Yeah. E [00:19:00] exactly. And uh, you know, and then if it’s a product that doesn’t really exist out in the market, people aren’t gonna be looking for it. So now you’ve got this education component to it, right? It’s very exp very expensive to educate people. So you want your tribe that be a part of that education process as well.

So, um, yeah, it just, uh, again, I, I go back to this human to human contact no matter what it is. Really focus on that. And of course, if you’re looking for a pair of shoes, you know, you’re, there’s, there’s gonna be a lot of companies competing to sell you those shoes and using Google AdWords and ads and that kind of thing that’s out there, that’s for ripe market and you can play that game.

But when you have these sort of undefined products, that’s where, you know, human to human contact is so important.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. But now, and, and then when we get to the next part of it, which is how do you get the referrals? The referrals is really through just doing a really great job at what you do. Which is, I mean, come on. I, you know, I, I think that that’s kind of the. [00:20:00] Uh, the good news about where the world is going is that really all you have to do is just love what you do and do it really, really well, and that is just gonna magically work itself through, because people are gonna say, Hey, yeah, this is my guy.

He loves what he does, and he does a great job, right? W why would you not refer that person right?

Gerry Hays: Yeah. Yeah. And in our case, venture staking, this is a whole new product, right? And the, the ba, the, the basic product is this, A venture stake is backing a entrepreneur early by giving them a grant. It could be as small as $10. It could be as, you know, as large as 10,000, right? But what you do is you lock in two things.

A, you lock into their journey. So now that founder that you’ve venture staked now is sharing with you each week. How they’re building their business. So now you’re gonna get that benefit of understanding what they’re doing. Their failures are ups, you know, all of that, right? The, the sort of the faith worship journey that we were talking about earlier.

You get to see that. Um, and then [00:21:00] if they come up on the other side, have, and they’ve discovered something really amazing and they’re gonna go raise around a capital to do that, you have a right to invest and buy stock in their company. Where VCs would wanna come in there and get that. You have a, a right to buy into that.

So I’m my first product, right? People venture stake to me. And I’m, each week I’m providing them an update about what’s happening with this business. And I love it. Right? And I look forward actually, to my weekly update. Every Friday at six o’clock, I release my weekly update and I love it. And, but from that we’ve had 323 Venture Stakers.

That are in there, but I’ve been getting invited to go to, to, to speak to Cornell. I’ve been, I mean, there’s a lot of things that are coming from that because people are seeing. This process, they’re learning about what we’re doing and they’re going, huh, well, maybe we should, maybe I should invite ’em to go talk to these people, or whatever.

And it’s that organic process that’s that’s happening, right. But I have to be the [00:22:00] product. I can’t just sell something as an idea and not have a real product that people can kick the tires and see.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I, I like what you’re doing ’cause it’s, it’s, uh, like you say, you’re educating people. You’re doing something that doesn’t already exist out there. ’cause like you say, I mean, you know, if I got another pair of shoes that are just better than the other guy’s pair of shoes, well then this is something that people already know.

Now I’m just putting myself in, positioning myself next to everybody else. But for something that’s brand new that nobody has heard of before, this is an idea and you have got no market. So I assume that what you’re talking about now is that your market is people who believe in you or believe that this is a good idea, right?

Gerry Hays: That’s exactly right. I am in, in part the product. Right. Um, but we as humans are the product first and foremost. People buy from people. You know, kinda like in the, I was in the food business for a while, fried chicken business. And what I, what I [00:23:00] learned about that business is that people eat with their eyes.

They always eat with their eyes. And if you’re, you know, we are selling to big grocery stores. And I would tell the, the leaders of the stores that if you’re not presenting this beautifully. Or for people to see this, you’re not gonna sell anything. So people eat with their eyes when it comes to food. But when it comes to buying products, people buy products from people they don’t, you know, in, in, in most cases,

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Now, so on your journey, do you, I mean, do you have coaches? Do you do mastermind? Like how do you learn all this stuff?

Gerry Hays: I. Well, there’s a lot of self-study. Um, I really try to, um, uh, read a lot of books around the mental game. I do believe, I, I think I hit a road, uh, I hit a, uh, a big wall, Tim, I wanna say back in 2015 and like, gosh, I am working my tail off. I am crushing it. And, but yet. There was no harvest. I mean, there, there was a harvest, but not to the [00:24:00] extent that I thought, you know, and I’m just like, what?

What’s happening? I, I’m getting older. I can’t keep working 90 hours a week, and there’s something, there’s gotta be something different. And, and, and then I really started switching and sort of looking at the mental game of all this. Right? And so I did a lot of reading. I’ve listened to a lot of YouTube stuff.

Um, listened to a lot of podcasts around this. But I’ve had coaches. I, I was in a group of other, uh, uh, founders. For about seven, eight years where we just kind of talked about these things. Um, I do have a coach. I actually actually have two coaches, um, right now. Um, and you know, I don’t, you know, I kind of work with them like once a month or whatever, but there’s sometimes I just go, I’m losing my, I’m, I’m losing it right now.

I am totally losing it. And they’ve hold, they hold space for me, right. And that’s what their job is. And I, and I would recommend for everyone who’s doing this. You go on this, you’re gonna go through a furnace, you wanna be an entrepreneur, find a couple people, whether they’re coaches or not, [00:25:00] people, to hold space for you as you’re going through it.

That’s a super important component.

Tim Melanson: I think you’re right, and especially in this home business space where you’re kind of alone, right? I mean, that’s a thing, you know, there’s who do you relate to right? When you’re, when you’re sitting there? But if you have, I mean, the good news now is that we do have Zoom. I mean, we do have this video conferencing thing where you can actually, you know, get that coffee, coffee, uh, what is it called?

The, the, the water cooler feel, where you can actually go and hang out with some people that are similar minded. Because, I mean, there’s that part too. It’s not even just that you need someone to like coach you and mentor you. Sometimes you just need to like talk to somebody who is in a similar place, right.

Gerry Hays: Exactly, exactly. And a lot of that is for you just to talk out loud. What’s going on in your head? Just get it out there. Right. You know, just vomit it out and then it’ll help you sort of make sense of it, and then you can move on.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Awesome. So it’s time for your guest solo. So tell me what’s [00:26:00] exciting in your business right now.

Gerry Hays: Uh, what’s exciting in the business right now is that we are on the precipice of creating an an entirely new system of capital creation through entrepreneurship. Um, traditionally the venture model has been reserved for. Um, the elite few, um, who can aggregate a lot of capital who come from very wealthy families.

And if you’re a founder or an entrepreneur trying to access that capital, you had to have been, you know, come from Harvard or Stanford or MIT and it’s a very closed knit system. Uh, that’s for the 1%, but for the 99% it’s really hard. It’s really hard to get the capital to get started. And uh, this system is designed to bring in millions of people to participate at a level that they can afford.

But what they’re doing is they are buying rights to invest and entrepreneurs in the future, or they’re reserving their rights to invest and [00:27:00] they’re getting people started for as little as $10. But then you could put a hundred dollars into their startups in the future. And there’s that sort of relationship between the founder and the venture stakers where the, they’re sending the founder off on a journey kind of frontier entrepreneur.

And then the, the entrepreneur can turn to their, his or her community and say, here’s what’s happening here. You guys. We got something great. You know, and everyone’s like, and everyone can make a decision. Yeah, let’s put some more money in. And let’s keep this going. It’s sort of this very grassroots, organic way to get, you know, problems solved in the world.

Tim Melanson: So you’re probably looking for people on both sides of that spectrum, right? You’re looking for people that want to like be the. And you want people that want to be the inventor, right?

Gerry Hays: That That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And the cool thing about this, uh, Tim, is that this is all done through sort of a, uh, a foundation. So it’s a, so every time you venture stake, you’re [00:28:00] actually making a contribution into the capital creation system for tax deduction. That gives you venture staking credits.

And then there’s these founders who are coming to what we’re calling arenas. Now arena could be formed around regenerating the earth. The an arena could be, uh, formed around. Um, you know, the Indian di Diaspora, right? Where we’re gonna, we’re going to focus on, uh, funding those entrepreneurs. And that particular mission or geography, your venture stakers then can, with their credits, could enter into those arenas and maybe put a little bit of venture staking credits into someone and now you’re tied to that journey, right?

So it’s all gonna happen through these arenas. So these partnerships that are gonna happen out there are through these, uh, arena partnerships that we’re forming.

Tim Melanson: Wow, that’s really cool stuff. So now is this, like I’m up in Canada, you’re in the States. Is this something that is worldwide or is this only in the States right now?

Gerry Hays: Well, this [00:29:00] is, well, we, we, we’ve revealed the system. It took seven years to reveal the system. Now we’ve closed the reveal process. Now we’re into the launch mode. So now we’re in the process of forming some early, um, arena partnerships. But this is gonna be global. We’re gonna be global from the very beginning.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Okay. Right on. So anybody can participate on both sides of it, I imagine, too,

Gerry Hays: On both sides. Yes.

Tim Melanson: So you’d be able to invest in companies around the world as well.

Gerry Hays: That’s exactly right. Now the cool thing is, what I’ve discovered in all of the research that I did around venture capital is that there’s one model that works better than any other model out there in terms of companies that are have having success, and it’s called the Teal Fellowship. And so it’s this guy, Peter Teal out in San Francisco.

He has a whole commentary about don’t go to school. I’ll give you a hundred thousand bucks. Just go figure something out. Just by getting ambitious people, a little bit of money in runway and an opportunity to focus on something [00:30:00] that’s generated really great outcomes, we wanna scale that model globally.

And so people who get to an arena, if they can get enough venture stakers to back them with credits. They raised a $200,000 grant to get started to conduct r and d. Then after they discover an opportunity, that’s when they come back to their venture stakers and saying, Hey, you guys, here’s the business opportunity.

And then you could decide whether or not you want to invest in that opportunity or not. No obligation, but you buy sort of a, a right if, if you will, um, a, a reservation to participate in that deal.

Tim Melanson: Wow. So how do we find out more?

Gerry Hays: Well, uh, first, uh, come to, uh, Doriot.com, D-O-R-I-O-T. Right, check us out. Um, and then, um, subscribe to our newsletter. And, um, uh, every week I’m put putting out a new newsletter and yeah. And. Start getting some information about what we’re doing and I give you some updates on [00:31:00] how things are progressing and then, um, you know, you just start organically just getting yourself acclimated to this new system of capital.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Now, so I mean obviously this is not a get rich quick or any type of like, uh, you know, it, it is a bit of a gamble, I’m sure. ’cause uh, you know, we are betting on people, uh. So I, you know, I think that, uh, it’s one of those things where if you don’t have the money, don’t go for it. However, on the other hand, uh, you know, if you’ve got a dream, this is a great place to go to go for it because I know that there are a lot of people that do wanna bet on people, right.

Gerry Hays: Yeah, and I think this is really important, Tim. So the venture system is not brand new. It’s been around since 1946, since Joe, uh, George Doriot invented it. Okay. The numbers speak for themselves, okay? Uh, investing in these deals, if you do it correctly, you can earn 10, 15 percentage points above what you could earn in the stock market.

Okay? You don’t put a hundred percent of your money into this, but you should be putting. [00:32:00] Maybe three to four to 5% of your net worth into backing the future. If you think about where the future’s heading, ai, blockchain, all these industries are gonna get reimagined. That’s all gonna happen through entrepreneurship.

If you’re not investing in the entrepreneurs that are re-imagining the world, you are losing out on a massive wealth creation opportunity. But what we make it available for you is if you can only afford to put a hundred dollars and buy a hundred dollars worth of stock. You are buying the, the stock at the same level as someone who buys a million dollars of stock.

You get the same exact deal terms, which means you get the same returns, right? And so this gets you into this game of having a financial stake in the future of our society in a way that’s accessible no matter where you are in the income level. It’s just, you just have to get yourself into this game and understand you should be an owner in human innovation, not just a watcher or a seer.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I think that’s great. And, and I mean, I think that the, it’s the price point, right? I mean, [00:33:00] like, you know, if you’re trying to invest in, you know, brand new company, you know, typically I think it would be a lot of money. But I mean, if you can throw 10 bucks in, you know, that’s something that’s pretty affordable for most people.

I mean, if you’re saving a certain amount of money per month and you’re throwing it into, you know, mutual funds or whatever it is you’re doing, your 401k, whatever, it’s, uh, you know, if you take a little small little chunk of that and you put it into people, I mean, that, that’s kind of a cool little diversity ski, uh, uh, plan, right?

Gerry Hays: And not only that, but your immediate product, the immediate return on investment is that now you are gonna be educated on so many entrepreneurs out there trying to build things, and you get to learn all that in real time. It’s like having a real. I like reading a book in real time about entrepreneurship.

So you’ve got this massive flow, and right now in this world, all that, uh, education, it just falls out. We capture it right and deliver it. So people who aspire to be entrepreneurs could be venture staking, and when they’re ready, they could enter an [00:34:00] arena and they are so well poised to succeed because they’ve been learning about what other people are doing, the, the what they do right, what they do wrong, so on and so forth.

Tim Melanson: Wow. I love that. Alright, this might be the toughest question, but who’s your favorite rock star?

Gerry Hays: Oh my favorite rock star of Roger Waters.

Tim Melanson: Nice right on Pink Floyd.

Gerry Hays: yeah, yeah. He’s my favorite of all time.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, he is. Uh, man, I mean, some of his lyrics are pretty relevant even today, isn’t it?

Gerry Hays: Absolutely. He’s timeless.

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much for rocking up with me today. This has been a lot of fun. Gerry.

Gerry Hays: I really appreciate it, Tim. Thank you.

Tim Melanson: Great. To the listeners, make sure you go to work@homerockstar.com for more information and to subscribe to our podcast and we’ll see you next time. I.

Tim Melanson: Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast. Excited for today’s episode. I am talking to an award-winning author from linkedvantage.com, and what he does is he helps people to optimize their LinkedIn profile, lots of different things, uh, headshot and background images, and he helps you use AI for keywords and just to help you get found on LinkedIn.

So I’m excited for today’s episode. We’re talking to Al Kushner. Hey Al, you ready to rock?

Al Kusher: Absolutely Tim, looking forward to it.

Tim Melanson: Beautiful. So we always start off here in a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

Al Kusher: Store of success. Well, I would say my latest book, uh, out that I released, it’s called the AI LinkedIn Advantage, and it really kind of. Um, I would say it’s a breakthrough book because it’s the only one that actually combines both LinkedIn AI together to help people optimize, you know, their, their, their performance on their platform.

So I think it’s great and I’m very excited about, um, sharing my knowledge.

Tim Melanson: [00:01:00] That’s awesome. Yeah, and I, I agree. I’ve had a couple other people on this podcast that have talked about LinkedIn and no one has mentioned ai, so, so that’s really cool that, uh, that that’s the space that you’re in. I’m excited to hear more about that too. Uh, before we do though. There. There are also things that don’t go as planned, so we like to talk about the good notes and the bad notes that get hit, and I’m wondering, can you share with us something that didn’t go as planned on your journey that we can be aware of?

Al Kusher: Well, as with anything, I think if you wanna be successful on, let’s say LinkedIn, you gotta make mistakes and that’s what you do. And if you don’t make mistakes, you’re not gonna grow. And I’ve had tons of these mistakes. I’ve been on LinkedIn for the past 20 years, so I’ve seen the, the growth of the platform and I think what it really made a difference.

Is that when AI was, uh, introduced like three or four years ago, particularly chat, GPT was really kind of a, a way that really changed the game of how to, um, create content, which is really something on [00:02:00] LinkedIn is, is king, you know? And, and if you don’t have quality content, you’re not gonna get people interested in following you.

You’re not gonna make quality connections. And that’s something that really made a difference for me. And I, I would say. Up until that time, my, my presence there was really very limited because I didn’t have a lot of time to, you know, create content or have editors and proofreaders to really help in making it, uh, flawless and seamless.

And now I do. So I’m really grateful for that.

Tim Melanson: Hmm. Yeah, I hear you. And I mean, one of the other things too is there’s so many different platforms out there and you’ve gotta create content. And some of the platforms are different than others. So the content you create for one platform might not work in another platform. Right. Is that the case or?

Al Kusher: Yeah, exactly. It depends on the audience. You know, in LinkedIn’s case, uh, you have dealing with a lot of professionals, people, educated people who are there to really like business to business in a sense. So it’s a certain way of, you know, creating content that resonates well with them compared to other [00:03:00] platforms where maybe more of a casual type of, um, content, um, to be displayed.

So yeah, there’s differences. I noticed.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, me too. Uh, yeah, I think like some platforms you wanna be a little bit more like funny, right? And some platforms you wanna be a little bit more serious, you know, that kind of stuff, right?

Al Kusher: yeah, pretty much. So, uh, every platform has its, um, pluses and minuses. So, but if, uh, I would think if you want to connect with business owners, entrepreneurs, or looking for new type of work, um, LinkedIn is definitely the place to be.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, totally. So let’s talk a little bit about that. I mean, first, uh, topic that I should talk about is about fans here. So I’m wondering, you know, the, the audience is out there, right? I mean, we’re looking at LinkedIn, there’s tons of people on LinkedIn. The audience is there, but how do you get them to like you?

Hmm.

Al Kusher: Well, very simple. You have to give value to whoever you’re connecting with. And the first thing you don’t wanna do is pitch, slap them. You know, [00:04:00] as soon as you connect with someone. And that’s pretty much common, and that’s the way to really turn off people for the most part. So if you make a connection.

And hopefully that could be a second connection, like you knew from someone else, and that makes it much easier. But it’s always about trying to add value to whoever you’re connecting with and, and really to get to know the person as a person and not as a sales or a dollar sign. And that’s really gonna make a difference in your approach and you’re being accepted.

Tim Melanson: And when you say add value to them, like are you talking about. It like individually, like through just messaging them or through your, your, your public posts.

Al Kusher: Well, I mean certainly with the public posts, like articles that are creating content that create newsletters. For certain, let’s say, um, I have newsletters for five different type of targets. I’m working with accountants, I’m working with financial planners, I’m working with attorneys, and each newsletter is designated for them touching on their pain points.

So when they look forward to the newsletter, they’re gonna reach something that really is [00:05:00] a pain point for them. So when I help resolve an issue that’s commonly affecting that particular group, so that’s really what you wanna do is, is give value.

Tim Melanson: Okay. Yeah, and, and that’s kind of cool the way you’re thinking about that because now when you fix or resolve a problem with one client, that can actually be a sales tool for a whole bunch of other clients, right?

Al Kusher: It’s like a case study. You, you, you share your information. You talk about a problem that’s commonly with that industry, and so show how you resolved it, and that’s really about. Them learning and people like that fact, they can learn something from others’ mistakes.

Tim Melanson: Do you think that like, I, I think that one of the struggles, well, I mean you even had that same struggle, is, is kind of coming up with content all the time. Like you’ve gotta keep, kind of, keep you be very consistent with it. I’m wondering, does the content, can you reuse content that you’ve already used before, over and over again?

Al Kusher: Well, I would say if [00:06:00] the content was, um. It became viral, for example, uh, which could be pretty rare. There’s no reason why you can do a spinoff on that particular topic or expand upon that and, and reuse it. Certainly. Uh, if it was very popular, I’m sure it would resonate well with people. And I’ve had that situation, which was, uh, really good.

So you have to monitor it and see which one works and which one is trial and error. As with anything.

Tim Melanson: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because I mean, sometimes you might. Think that it’s gonna be really good content and it doesn’t go anywhere. And other times, you know, something that you just kind of threw in, threw in there, ends up going really well, right?

Al Kusher: Yeah, it’s really strange how the algorithm works, but that’s, uh, how it is. But that’s great is as long as you’re consistent with the content, that’s the key thing, you know, and that, and always do it every week, uh, you’ll find people will follow you and look forward to what you, uh, have to say.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Cool. So let’s talk a little bit about the instruments. Now I am wondering, you’re probably gonna talk about [00:07:00] ai, but is there, is there any other instruments that you use, any other tools that you use for success in your business?

Al Kusher: Well, certainly there are graphic tools available like Canva, which I think is really good for creating. Book covers and, um, things for videos like, uh, you know, um, I know artwork for that. So, uh, there are other things besides, you know, content text itself, but, you know, artwork is definitely, uh, a vital, I would think, too, one success on the platform.

Tim Melanson: Agree. So when it comes to ai, I mean, I think I, I think now most of the people that I talk to, especially on this podcast, are sort of like at the point where they’re embracing it and going, okay, yeah, this isn’t gonna gonna go away. But there are some people that are still afraid of it, or at least afraid to use it.

I’m wondering, you know, can you like tell us like, what is it, what, what does it do for us and, and how can we use it properly?

Al Kusher: Well, I guess an analogy would be is when the, um. You know, a [00:08:00] hundred years ago we’re watching the Gilded Age recently. I’m not sure if you watched that program. Um, but, uh, you know, it showcases, you know, when they introduced electricity, you know, the light bulb and everybody’s using candles and such. And a lot of people think, oh, well, you know, candles, you know, are are inexpensive and it works.

Guess what? That’s what people are doing. When they’re not embracing AI technology, they’ll just say, they’ll go back to their own ways and means, and that’s it. The problem is they’re gonna go left, left behind. ’cause those who are using electricity are really gonna be, uh, on the forefront. I’m gonna be the cutting edge and the competition is using it.

If you’re not, so you really need to step up your game and there’s no reason why not to embrace it. Uh, I think it says with anything you could dip your toes into it. There are a lot of great. Programs out there, like chat, GPT for example, that really gives you an opportunity to try out, uh, AI and, and see how, uh, it can help, uh, make a difference in your, um, running content or any other solutions.

I mean, it’s really amazing.

Tim Melanson: That’s a good analogy. And now I [00:09:00] think that another thing too is that, uh, like, because I’ve been using AI for quite a while now, and you know, even though now it’s gotten quite a bit better, uh, but it’s still, there is a bit of a learning curve. Like you still have to kind of learn how to use this tool properly.

And I think maybe that might be one of the, uh, one of the drawbacks is that people will try to use it, it won’t give them what they want and then sort of abandon it. Like, I’m wondering, do you, uh, like have you taken courses, like how do you learn how to get better at using ai?

Al Kusher: Well, I mean, there are a lot of videos on YouTube, for example, that you can research on and, and learn from that. Um, there are courses that are available. Books of course, are, uh, amazing. Uh. And podcasts, you know, that you could learn from. So there’s no, no, you know, there’s no shortage of information out there to learn it.

It’s just a matter of your deciding you want to do that. And most people are procrastinating because they don’t have the time to do it, don’t have the energy, and [00:10:00] it’s about, you know, investing in yourself and you should. Of the money you’re making 5% of that to invest in yourself. And whether it’s, uh, the attending a course or going to a conference on ai, there’s no reason not to do it because it’s only gonna make you better at what you do.

So that’s really the way to do it.

Tim Melanson: I agree. And what about, so what about you? Like, do you participate in masterminds? Any type of like, uh, you know, do you hire coaches yourself?

Al Kusher: Oh, actually I do one step better. I have AI as my coach. I, uh, I created an AI agent that works as a coach. ’cause normally a coach can run you thousands of dollars a month, you know, and I can get the same results with a coach as long as I program it the way I’m. Wanted to think, then I can get, get the results I’m looking for.

And I’m amazed and shocked on how, uh, impressive the results are. And you can have a conversation with the AI and tell ’em, Hey, what should I do today? You know, and they will tell you. Well, and you can create AI [00:11:00] based on certain characters that you can make one based on Warren Buffet or Gary Hick or any other people that you admire.

And you could take their information and put it into ai. To create a personality that will reflect when you talk to them, they’ll sound like, you know, or display like the person you want to connect with, which is incredible. So, yeah, that’s how I do it.

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome. That’s such a great idea that I haven’t thought of yet.

Al Kusher: And here’s also, and you think too, not just one person. Imagine you can have an advisory board. Okay. Made of members of people you respect in the industry now, who are your favorite, uh, people that you respect in the, in your industry, would you say?

Tim Melanson: Uh, well, I mean, you did, you did mention, uh, Gary Van Derrek. I love watching his stuff. He’s fantastic. Uh, I’ve just actually started looking into guys like, uh, grant Cardone. He seems to be doing some cool stuff right now with his 10 x stages. Uh, Tony Robbins is, uh, I’ve taken a few of his courses [00:12:00] in the past.

Um, uh, that’s a, that’s a good start.

Al Kusher: Well, imagine these three guys on your board of advisors, okay, as AI bots, okay? And they have all the information of these guys over the years. Stored in and just imagine you can just ask a question and they will come back to you as Gary or the other guys who mentioned about how to make strategies in your business direction you wanna take.

That’s the incredible way that AI is, is developing, that you can do this without, um, you know, uh, paying top dollar, you know, to get advice from these individuals. So it’s incredible.

Tim Melanson: That’s really bright. I, I actually, uh, so I, I did actually create A-A-G-P-T or like a, a personality in my. My area for my accountant. So I’ve got an accountant now that he handles all my books or it handles all my books and stuff like that, but I never got to the point that’s, that’s actually a really bright idea to create, you know, a board or a coach [00:13:00] through AI as well, because, I mean, you know, you do sort of ask AI about that stuff, but the more you train it, the more you teach it.

The better it gets. So, uh, you could really kind of hone that right in. And I love using the personality of, of, of a coach like that. ’cause then, you know, part of the reasons why, you know, I know we talk about this quite often on the, on this podcast where, you know, you hire a coach for different reasons.

Sometimes you might hire them for accountability, sometimes you might hire them for strategies. Uh, you know, but the accountability part is, is a huge one. You’re not gonna get that from the cheerleaders in your life. You know? You need somebody that’s gonna actually give it to you straight and say, Hey, listen, I think you’re actually not doing what you should be doing right now.

That’s important, right?

Al Kusher: Oh, it’s essential. So for me, I, I think it’s, it’s amazing how the technology has grown, particularly with, um, Google, um, uh, platform where they. Have, um, notebook lm, where you can actually put information, let’s [00:14:00] say Tony Robbins for example, and take all of his books and put it all into the, the thing to study it.

Okay? And it’ll come out sounding exactly like the individual. So you have a question, how did he handle it? And guess what? You’re getting that information that would maybe take you hours, days, months to read, available in seconds. I mean, how cool is that?

Tim Melanson: Wow, wow. Uh, and I think. Probably some of that information would already be there, wouldn’t it? You wouldn’t even have to enter it in. Wouldn’t the GPTs already know it?

Al Kusher: Well, no, you’ve gotta give the information what you’re requesting. So let’s say he’s got, I don’t know, 13 books. Okay? You want to take all that information and put it into a notebook, lm, and then create a, um, an AI bot based on that information. And you ask a question, it’ll come back with an answer based on all the information that’s been, you know, told over the years.

So it’s incredible.

Tim Melanson: And I’m a big reader too, so I mean [00:15:00] this, you know, there’s quite a few books that I have not read yet and I imagine this is a good way to just grab those books that I haven’t read yet, upload them up there, and then anytime I’m asking a question, it’ll actually just draw from that. It can read much faster than I can.

That’s for sure.

Al Kusher: Yeah. And, and, and advise you and, and, and it’s amazing. And then not just use that influence, but others as well, that you respect, put all the information they can be part of your team, and then you have, you know, and, and then have the team also come up with solutions based on their experience. I mean, it’s incredible how that works in your favor.

Tim Melanson: Ah, wow, Al. This is one of the best ideas I’ve heard on this show. I will say it’s amazing. Great job. That’s good. So now it is time for your guest solo. So I, you know, I wanna hear more about your business. I wanna hear about what, what’s exciting for you right now.

Al Kusher: Well, I would say that, um, well of course my book, uh, launched in, in June and that’s exciting and going a lot of, uh, uh, podcasts and also, uh, organizations that are reaching out for speaking [00:16:00] opportunities. So I think it’s incredible and I can reach a lot, a lot of people, and I do, um, really, uh, it’s just amazing how.

Uh, you know, the content on, on, not just LinkedIn, but other platforms you can reach so much more people. Uh, it’s tremendous. And I’m also creating my own podcast too, so that’s pretty exciting and that hopefully will launch in September. So I think it’s just a great time to be in business, to be self-employed because you have all these resources available that I never had years ago.

I mean, AI didn’t exist 20 years ago. Think about it. And now it’s like, I wish I was 20 years younger and I could take advantage of everything that’s available. So, but I’m glad to be in where I’m right now, you know, exciting times to, uh, to share my information and, uh, get the word out about, uh, technology that’s really changing people’s lives.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, well, tell me about your book.

Al Kusher: Well, it’s called the AI LinkedIn Advantage, and it really talks about how to use AI and um, LinkedIn to grow your [00:17:00] business. And, uh, I refer to certain types of, uh, software that’s really popular that you can use to enhance your profile, to optimize it, and also develop a strategy for outreach. So if you wanna connect with people you know, who are your target audiences, if you wanna connect with referral partners like accountants or attorneys.

You know, uh, it’ll create content that’ll resonate well with them. You can create an ebook. You can create, um, video scripts that could be influ influential. I would say groups also are really popular on LinkedIn. Are you part of any groups on LinkedIn at all, or?

Tim Melanson: No, not.

Al Kusher: Okay, well guess what? You should look into getting groups and get at least 20 or 30 groups, uh, to be part of.

’cause that also is gonna help in your outreach because if you’re connecting with people, a lot of times they may accept you because you’re part of a group. And what’s great about it’s that once you’re in the group, you can actually connect with those people and send direct messages to them. And some groups are so large, I mean, they got over hundreds, if not over a million.

Followers in the group or [00:18:00] members. So it’s really a great way to expand your network, um, that people seem to ignore, but groups are really a great way to connect.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Um, I, most of my outreach happens on Facebook, so I’m part of Facebook groups and I do all those things there. So I imagine all those same sort of, uh, concepts are all available on LinkedIn too, right?

Al Kusher: Yeah. Yeah. And, and a different type of group, again, is different than on Facebook. And I think also the reach is much greater because a lot of times Facebook is pay to play for the most part. So if you wanna go and get your message out there, you gotta boost it where it’s not necessarily on LinkedIn the case.

So that could be also getting greater outreach, which is also important. And newsletters also very important too on LinkedIn because you can create a newsletter and when it gets sent out to the people following it. Not only do they get notified on LinkedIn itself, but also outside of LinkedIn, like their inboxes.

And a lot of times it won’t go to spam filters, it goes straight directly to their inbox because LinkedIn has such a high authority that it just bypasses. It’s almost like [00:19:00] a red carpet come on in. The spam filters don’t even say, you know, that’s not spam. It’s from LinkedIn. So it must be good. And guess what?

It gets better reach. So I definitely recommend starting a newsletter if you haven’t done that yet.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, LinkedIn probably does its own sort of, uh, content moderation as well too, right.

Al Kusher: Yeah, it’s really incredible how, um, the, uh, the platform, the algorithm works in your favor and they encourage that for people to do that. Particularly videos. They do encourage that a lot as well. I would say that if you post a video on LinkedIn, you’ll probably get a lot more reach than you did if you did a text post.

And a lot of people are really starting to learn about that as, uh, making a difference.

Tim Melanson: so now tell me about this podcast that you are creating.

Al Kusher: Well, I’m, uh, working on one that will, um, focus in on AI and, uh, branding, um, to become a thought leader and how to use the information with ai. To create a persona you might say that will resonate [00:20:00] well with your target audience. So I’ll probably have people who are, um, guests in the industry and leaders and, you know, people who are thought leaders and branding experts to really share their knowledge with my audience.

So hopefully that will, uh, transpire, uh, next quarter.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Good. So where do we get your book?

Al Kusher: Easy, uh, Amazon, uh, one place, uh, bronze Noble, uh, any retailers online you could find available. It’s also, uh, in an audiobook form available on Spotify, and I believe Audible hopefully should have it. So, uh, that’s another option for people who could choose. You can also go to my website linked vantage.com, where I do offer a, uh, free, um.

Kinda newsletter or ebook that helps you optimize your profile. Uh, it’s kind of a checklist that you can kinda look at to see whether or not you are doing the exact way of making your profile stand out. And I think a lot of, uh, you know, listeners would love to, uh, get that [00:21:00] access available. And it can also follow me on LinkedIn too.

You can have access to many directly. Um, look forward to connecting with anyone on uh LinkedIn. Just don’t pitch slap me. That’s most important.

Tim Melanson: It drives me so crazy when that happens to me. I just add somebody and they immediately send me this big old pitch, right? Uh, but that’s the thing is that nowadays with, uh, with ai, the, I think the disadvantage is that you do get a lot more of that. I mean, ’cause I imagine that way back when, you know, someone would’ve to spend the time to write that pitch.

Now, you know, they’re probably just throwing it into AI and it’s generating them a big paragraph and they’re dumping it into the, into the messages. Right.

Al Kusher: But it’s still the same old thing. It’s just gonna really turn away people. So whether it’s AI generated or written on your own, that’s the wrong way to approach anyone who we’re making a connection with. Give something of value to whoever you’re connecting with. When I connect with someone, I give ’em a copy of my, uh, profile checklist.

Okay. It’s, um, and what’s great [00:22:00] about it is that I don’t require them to give me my email or give them, you know, the email to get it, you know, take it, do what you want with it, which is great. You wanna make it real easy and non-threatening, and that’s it. And if they’re interested, they’ll reach out to you.

And I’ve got plenty of business, so I don’t worry about that.

Tim Melanson: So when someone pitch slaps you, what do you, what do you write back? What do you do?

Al Kusher: I don’t write black, I just simply block them and I, and I delete them. And that’s it. I mean, it’s just, it’s just a process that I do. And then for me, that really works very effectively and for the most part, um, and if I want to, you know, take the time, I may pitch, slap them back. You know, tell ’em that your pitch slap sucks, you know, but I help you to make a better one, you know?

Tim Melanson: That’s what I was wondering if you would do, Hey, this is a terrible pitch. But if you hire me, I’ll get, I’ll help you fix this.

Al Kusher: Yeah. Why not?

Tim Melanson: It’s a great idea. Cool. Okay, so now I’ve got one more question before we, uh, before we wrap up here. [00:23:00] This might be the hardest one. Who’s your favorite rockstar?

Al Kusher: Oh, living or dead?

Tim Melanson: E Either one.

Al Kusher: Oh, okay. So many. I don’t know where to

Tim Melanson: I know.

Al Kusher: I mean, I was watching a documentary on Billy Joel recently, so it’s really incredible how the life he lived. So that something is pretty much what I’ve been kind of focusing on and listening to songs and everything. So he is been incredible, you know, rockstar I would say.

And he’s from New York, so where I’m originally from as well. So I kind of partial to that. I would say definitely he is, uh, he is one of my favorites I would say.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, he’s, uh, he’s incredible. I love his stuff. And, uh, his, his, uh. I think he’s coming up to the end. Hasn’t he been playing in Madison swear guns for a long time? Is that almost ending now? Is it? Or?

Al Kusher: It’s hard to say. He may be continuing because obviously it’s, it’s still selling out. I mean regardless. And he’s been also to other areas. Uh, he’s in Florida. I know recently visit. [00:24:00] Um, I guess it’s just a matter of supply and demand. He’s really, uh, finding, uh, new Renaissance, I would say. And a lot of, uh, younger generations are tuning into him before, never because of his, uh, popularity.

Tim Melanson: because I heard, and I’m not sure if this is accurate or not, that that was his initial deal. Was he okay? I, you know, I’ll do it, but I’ll only play until it stops selling out and it’s still selling out.

Al Kusher: Yeah. It is still in demand, so.

Tim Melanson: It’s like.

Al Kusher: Yeah. As, as with anything. So why not? I mean, think about it. You know, I mean, you’re doing things you love and, um, you know, it’s not really taking much of your time. You’re making money. Why not? If you love what you’re doing, you know, you’ll do it until you’re dead, I guess.

So, I mean, look at, uh, Ozzy Osborne, you know, and he, you know, gave a, uh, recent concert a week before he passed away, but he was still enjoying his, you know, um, notoriety, his, uh, fame because of the many people that love his, uh, work. So [00:25:00] may rest in peace.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Rest in peace. Absolutely. Awesome. So before we wrap up though, uh, again, what was, uh, how’s the best, what’s the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Al Kusher: Well go to on my website linked vantage.com. You can also check on my book on Amazon or Spotify. Uh, reach out to me on LinkedIn. Follow me on LinkedIn. I’m happy to, you know, uh, connect with people. And, uh, yeah, those are just some of the ways that you can reach out to me.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Thank you all for rocking out with me today. This has been awesome.

Al Kusher: Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity, Tim. Have a good one.

Tim Melanson: Cool. And to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information and we’ll see you next time on the Work At Home Rockstar Podcast.