Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work At Home Rock Star podcast. We’re gonna be talking about something pretty important today. We’re gonna be talking about some security stuff. But before we do that, we are talking to the owner of Protect Now LLC, and what he does is he helps people to prevent data breaches, phishing, identity theft, all that kind of stuff.

Very excited to be talking today to Robert Siciliano. Hey, Robert, you ready to rock?

Robert Siciliano: I am. Thank you, Tim

Tim Melanson: Awesome. We always start off on a good note, so tell me a story of success in your business that we can be inspired by

Robert Siciliano: Well, I have been, um, a solopreneur, uh, since probably, uh, early 2001. And here I am, uh, three kids later, uh, two mortgages, a, uh, work-at-home or I guess, um, full-time mom, wife. And, um, you know, I’ve managed to, uh, put one through college right now, and the other one’s on the way. [00:01:00] Private school for all these years.

Primarily, you know, uh, based on me working from home, and then getting on the road and doing my thing. Uh, it’s been a lifetime of, you know, for me, um, not necessarily knowing when the next paycheck’s gonna come in based on the nature of my business, and finding a cer- certain degree of security in insecurity.

You know? Not knowing where the next paycheck’s coming from. But I’ve managed to keep the lights on and, um, we’ve got a bit of a retirement account, and we should probably do good

Tim Melanson: Great stuff. Yeah, you got me beat, 2001. I started in 2008 working from home, so you know, it’s been a long time, and things have changed quite a bit in that amount of time, right? I mean, now people kind of get a little bit about working from home and you know, that. But back then, it was odd, wasn’t it?

Robert Siciliano: You know, I, um, have always found a certain level of pleasure in working [00:02:00] from my house. Uh, being able to pick up the phone and make sales calls, and use the internet to manage communications and to create. Um, and I’ve been doing that, you know, since the di- the days of dial-up AOL, right?

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Robert Siciliano: And, um, when I first started working from home full-time, it did feel kinda weird, you know, due to the fact that I’d been, like, working at a job eight to 10 hours a day for the previous 13 years.

And I kinda felt like, at the beginning, like I should be doing more, or I should have more of a routine, or I should be reporting somewhere. And I, I had to work on creating a certain level of internal discipline, and creating that structure and routine for myself early on. And then once I did, I fell right into it, and, um, you know, at this point I would consider myself unemployable.

Uh, I could never work for anybody at this point, you know? I could never be told what [00:03:00] to do, so to speak. That, um, you know, I, uh, I wake up to my body clock at this point, I go to bed at my body clock, and the only time I ever wake up to an alarm is if I got a flight the next morning

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Wow. Well, that’s awesome. Congratulations. That’s really, that’s really what this show is all about. But now, on that note, I mean, there are some things that don’t go as planned, and I’m sure in all those years there have been something that kind of caught you off guard. And I’m wondering, I’d like to talk about that bad note because it does kind of hold people back from getting started, and I’m wondering, what was the biggest mistake that you made on this journey?

Robert Siciliano: Um, biggest mistake I’ve made. You know, when you do work from home, or at least from my perspective, for the nature of my business, we tend to, um, reach out to others that might have a bit more expertise than we do, and, um, on topics that we could learn to do it ourselves, but we reach out to others that, um, [00:04:00] seem to have more of a handle on it.

And, uh, and then we invest in them, and we invest in their expertise. And we soon find out, often too late, that, um, you know, like they’re not really as good at what they do as their marketing materials say that they are as good as, and that I probably could have saved myself two, three, four, five, $6,000 and not invested them, in them, and maybe learned what it is that I should be doing for myself, uh, to build my brand based on, you know, what I know about me and brand building, and then learn more.

So I think it’s like hiring experts to do work for us that when we don’t quite understand what that work is or should be. And I think that we really need to invest in ourselves and our own education on the various aspects of building a business before [00:05:00] we invest in others to do that for us

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. Yeah, th- this topic has come up quite a few times and, you know, of course, you know, at some point there are things that you shouldn’t be doing in your business that you could have somebody that knows more than you do about it. Th- that makes sense, right? But on the other hand, I, I love your point because how do you know whether they’re doing a good job if you don’t even know what a good job looks like, right?

Robert Siciliano: We don’t

Tim Melanson: E- exactly, and so it ends up being one of those situations where you find out way too late after you spend way too much money and whether you’ve… whe- when you’ve lost all this time. So, you know, if you were to do it over again, then what… how would you have done that differently?

Robert Siciliano: Well, I tell you, um, I’m 57, and, uh, to do it over, if, like, right now, like literally today, um, is probably the best time to do it over, so to speak, because we have AI. [00:06:00] And AI provides you all the answers to all the questions that you’ll ever need to ask, and it gives you that blueprint and that layout for pretty much anything and everything that you could ever possibly screw up.

And, and, and, like, just, like, increase that learning curve, like, instantly based on doing the right search, asking the right questions. Like, there’s never been a better time to make really good decisions from the beginning. I mean, it’s just phenomenal. Like, it– I’ve been saying for, you know, what is it? Uh, 25 years, I, I, I need two of me.

I need four of me. But I need two of me. Well, AI at this point is, like, three of me. You know? It’s not f- I’m not fully automated with AI as some people are, but I’m asking all the right questions, and it’s doing a lot of the research and the work for me to cut the learning curve. And, um, it’s just… You know, it truly is [00:07:00] a resource for us independents that, uh, we just didn’t have before, you know?

And it’s great

Tim Melanson: I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, uh, o- one of the things that good business people do well is research, right? Is, is finding out what questions to ask. And I mean, it’s just at the drop of a at the click of a finger that you can all of a sudden get all the questions that you’re supposed to ask. Not even necessarily the answers, but the questions that you’re supposed to ask to the person that you’re about to hire.

Uh, I mean, and I, I bought a, a car recently, and it, I mean, it, it was amazing just going in with, with all this data and, and the salesman going like, "Oh, man." And, and you know, the, the, the chat questions, I mean, I even told them that I’ve, I’ve got this from chat. "Here, I’ve got all the questions from chat. This is what he tells me, what it tells me to ask you."

And I asked the guy, and he’s like, "Oh, okay, well, I guess I have to be honest right now because it’s gonna find these answers way faster than I can." Uh, but that would work really well with hiring any type [00:08:00] of subcontractor, right?

Robert Siciliano: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, w- w- this is a really good time to, to, to get out on your own, uh, due to the fact that, you know, all the technology at our fingertips is right there.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Robert Siciliano: I would say for most of us that, um, are functioning in an older technology environment, like when I say older technology, if you’re like on a laptop or a desktop that’s like four or five years old, you need to upgrade, because all the resources that we have in front of us right now of, are, are, are, are, are, are, uh, uh, RAM or data intensive, you know, processor intensive, and they require newer hardware to facilitate newer, uh, software

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think, I think you’re, you’re right. I think there’s a lot of people that are scared of, of this new AI thing, right? And it’s, it’s unfortunate because you know, it’s not gonna go anywhere, I don’t think. I mean, it’s so useful for those of us who have embraced it that it’s just, it’s just not gonna [00:09:00] go anywhere.

So the people that are kinda going, "Well, you know, I’m not gonna do that yet," they probably gonna get left behind. But then on the other side of that coin, it can’t do everything perfectly. And like you said, it’s not, you’re not completely automated. I’m not sure if you’d really want to be completely automated.

I mean, you wanna have some, uh, you know, part in that business, don’t you?

Robert Siciliano: Absolutely, yeah. But for those who are just starting off, you know, even the simple task of, of writing an email, and writing the actual email, and having the, the, the, the tool built into the email clean up your words, that in and of itself is actually a really great way to begin. And not that, like, every single email should be written, you know, from the, from, from the get-go by, um, the AI tool.

Again, like, you write the email and have the email clean you up. For me and my character and the way that I write, I’ve had, um, email remind [00:10:00] me that my tone is too aggressive,

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Siciliano: and that’s my nature.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Robert Siciliano: My nature is being aggressive. Um, not because, like in a mean way, but just like, you know, like a get to the point way.

And, um, email has kind of softened my delivery, which, uh, well, AI has softened my delivery. And for somebody like me, you know, it’s been, uh, a game changer for me

Tim Melanson: M- me too. I’m actually the same way in my emails. My emails can be a little bit direct. And, uh, I, I noticed pretty quickly when I started to put things into, uh, chat to rewrite it, and it would rewrite things back, and it, it kind of, like, gives you a little bit of self-awareness. I’m like, "Oh, yeah, that does sound a lot, a lot better than what I just wrote," you know?

Yeah. Right on. So let’s talk a little bit about practicing, and I mean, this can go in so many different directions for practice. It could be personal practices, it could be business practices. Uh, but I, I think we could probably take it into the security aspect for you because, I [00:11:00] mean, w- we… many people are just going into this blind with, you know, all these scams and all these phishing and all this stuff going on right around us.

And I mean, bring up AI. I, I’m sure that these hackers are using AI to, to get around certain things. What can we do? What kind of practices can we put into place to protect us?

Robert Siciliano: Yeah, so AI, um, is, you know, amazing, and criminals look at it that way too. And it’s allowing them to scale their businesses in, in ways in which, um, you know, have never really been possible. Uh, one criminal hacker could, you know, facilitate hundreds if not thousands of what we call neural puppets, and essentially, uh, use one tool to reach out to thousands of people at the same time and communicate with them, and to groom those people in such a way where the criminal is getting them to believe his or her ruse, you know?[00:12:00]

And today, um, organized crime is engaged in cybercrime. You know, it’s looking like a multi-trillion dollar business by, you know, the early 2030s. Uh, it’s already eclipsed the, um, illicit drug trade at this point. And so if, if, if we as consumers aren’t doing the absolute basics, as we- if we as small businesses aren’t doing the absolute basics, then it’s just a matter of time until you’ve got egg in your face, or worse, your email is compromised, which ultimately n- means your bank account gets compromised or your crypto gets compromised.

So there’s, there’s some basic, basic things that we all should be doing right now that many of us don’t. And I know that many of us aren’t, because I get in front of live audiences for a living, whether it’s virtually like this or more mostly in person, and I ask a series of questions to kinda get, like, the pulse of those who I’m speaking to and [00:13:00] where they’re at in what they’re doing and what they’re not doing more than anything.

And so one of the questions I ask my audiences is, like, "Okay, so show of hands, how many of you can honestly say that you are using a different passcode across all your critical accounts?" And different means like you’re not using the same passcode twice. And different also means that, you know, you’re using long, strong passwords, like uppercase, lowercase, numbers and characters and so forth, and never using the same passcode twice.

When I ask that question, if I get 10, 15% of the room to raise their hand, "Oh yeah, I’m using a different long, strong passcode across multiple accounts," 10 to 15% for a room is a lot, which means like 80 to 90% of the room is using the same passcode, easy to guess, easy to hack, easy to crack, across multiple accounts.

And that just sounds so rudimentary, but it’s a big deal [00:14:00] because it doesn’t take much research to determine that right now as many as 15 to as much as 20 billion passwords are on the dark web. Think about that for a second. Like over the past two decades, there’s about 300 billion of our records on the dark web.

300 billion. And 15 to 20 billion of those records are actual passwords. You, you could do a search on various tools that will expose, you know, multi-billions worth of, of credentials. Um, like I know like from one of these tools, you can see like 200 something million people are using one, two, three, four, five, six as a passcode still today, you know?

And so that’s problematic. And then on top of that, we’re, we’re, we’re talking access control right now. You know, less than 10% of consumers are using a password manager, and a password manager is the tool that you [00:15:00] would use to facilitate having a different long, strong passcode across multiple accounts.

So, you know, the numbers make sense that, you know, less than 10% of the public is using a password manager and 10-ish percent are changing up their passcodes and using long, strong. And then on top of that, I- the next question is like how many of you are using two-factor authentication for all your critical accounts, including email, you know?

And two-factor authentication, of course, is when like you enter your credentials, username and passcode, and then get a one-time text message. Sometimes you might get like a special code to an app, whatever the case is. If I get 15 to 20% of the room to raise their hand, it’s u- usually a little bit more ’cause it’s required more often, 15 to 20% is a lot, which means 80-plus percent are not even using two-factor authentication.

It is 2020, you know, six-ish at this point, and when [00:16:00] we’re no further along today than many of us were 10, 15, 20 years ago, you know. Bad actors know this, and they’re using that against us

Tim Melanson: Agreed. I, so I’ve been using a password manager for quite a while now, and it, it, it definitely is a, a game changer in, um, in being able to manage all these different passwords because as you said, I try to have a different password for every, for every account that I log into. And how do you, how are you supposed to manage all that stuff in your head or even on a piece of paper?

It’s just, it’s not, it’s not ple- uh, feasible, right? So but then when I tell people about this, m- uh, the, you know, these password managers, the most common result that I get o- other than, "Okay, let me use that," like, ’cause some of them do, uh, is, "Well, how do I trust that? How do I trust the password manager?"

That, that’s a question for you

Robert Siciliano: So, okay, so there’s a couple things going on there, right? A, they don’t understand the [00:17:00] technology. B, um, they might have heard that, you know, in the past some password managers have been hacked. Sure. Uh, password managers are security companies, and like most security companies at some level have been hacked.

Most banks at some level have been hacked. Like Microsoft’s been hacked, Apple’s been hacked. Like, you know, Bank of America’s been hacked. Like- Most organizations have been hacked at some level. What does that mean? Does that mean that all systems down? No, not at all. It means that some level s- at some point in their network was penetrated, and generally they only got so far.

In some cases, like they’d shut the company down, but I’m not aware of any password manager or bank for that matter, that was infiltrated to such a degree where they were shut down for good. I’ve seen it happen to small businesses, but I’ve never seen it happen to a major institution or a password manager for that matter.

Tim Melanson: Yep

Robert Siciliano: I [00:18:00] think that like people just don’t understand what that hack means or what that looks like. And the majority of the time, if and when a password manager was compromised, you know, they got access to a certain part of the network, but not to the client’s encrypted data, you know? And even if they got an access to the encrypted information, it was encrypted, which means it wasn’t in plain text.

So I think that the majority of the time we bui- when people ask those questions, it’s because they just truly don’t understand. But the other part of it is, which is the most unfortunate part, is people kind of like throw their hands up in the air and say, "Well, why would I use a password manager if a password manager could, can just get hacked?"

So what, what they’re really doing is they’re engaging in fatalism. So when it comes to security, lots of people engage in fatalistic views of security. Why bother? Which is kind of human nature, and that, that… There’s something to that. And I’ve been doing what I do now for like 30, 40 years. 30 years professionally, 40 years in my life, okay?

[00:19:00] And so in this dialogue, when I’m engaged in an audience, you know, talking about security, what it is, what it isn’t, I, I ask a number of qualifying questions essentially to challenge their belief systems to find out, you know, why they do or don’t do what they do. And one of the questions I ask them is like, "How many of you have a home security system?"

Which is a pretty basic question, and depending on if you’re urban versus suburban or rural, you know, the, the answers are different, right? But truly, like if I get 15% of the room to say, "Oh yeah, we got a home security system," that’s a lot. Which means 85% of the general public does not have a home security system.

And so I ask, you know, "Why don’t you have that home security system?" And there’s like three common answers that I get, and one of them is, "Well, we don’t have a home security system because we have insurance." As if insurance is gonna protect you and your physical being at 3:00 AM, you know? Or, "We don’t have a home security system because [00:20:00] my husband says, ‘If they’re gonna break in, they’re gonna break in.

What are we gonna do?’" Well, I would divorce his ass, frankly, okay? Because, like, I’m gonna do what I gotta do to protect my girls while they’re sleeping, my honey, myself at 3:00 a.m., to be frank, you know? And I don’t, I don’t engage in fatalistic attitudes when it comes to security. I put systems in place. I don’t…

I, like, I would never tell a, a law enforcement officer, "W- why bother putting a bulletproof vest on? Like, what are you, what are you, an idiot? Why would you bother? I mean, if you can get… You, you could just get shot in the head." I mean, is that common sense? No. I mean, he’s protecting his upper torso. He can’t protect everything.

Security is never gonna be 100%, but it’s a process. It’s a journey. Like, you engage in these best practices to reduce risk. But the most common answer that I get as to why people don’t install the home security system, and this is the most unfortunate part, is they say, "Well, we don’t have a home security system because I don’t [00:21:00] wanna live like that.

Tim Melanson: Hmm

Robert Siciliano: don’t wanna have to worry. I don’t wanna live in fear. I don’t wanna be paranoid," is what they most often say. And that is all because we, mostly as Americans, ’cause I speak all over the world, truly as Americans, we generally live safely. We generally live comfortably. "I live in a safe neighborhood," 98% of my audiences say, ’cause we want to believe that we do.

And generally, most live in a safer neighborhood, let’s say, okay? But it’s that fatalistic, "It can’t or won’t happen to me," or, "I don’t wanna live like that. I don’t wanna be paranoid," that prevents us from truly recognizing risk. Because most people have an unhealthy relationship w- with security. They look at it as a bad thing, as if installing a home security system is gonna make you worry.

It’s gonna make you live in [00:22:00] fear. It’s gonna make you paranoid. And paranoia is a mental health diagnosable dis-ease, truly. But we as a culture have viewed it and looked at it for decades as truly a bad thing,

Tim Melanson: Hmm

Robert Siciliano: and that’s why most people don’t engage in the basics. That’s why they don’t install a password manager.

"Well, if it can get hacked, why bother?" You know? And really, what it boils down to is, one of the most common questions I get in a live audience is, "Well, how do I know what links are okay to click when I do a Google search?" And that answer or that question g- that question truly shows that people just really aren’t invested in learning about technology or digital literacy for that matter, or learning about security of that technology.

They’re, they’re just not interested. They don’t spend the time. They don’t engage in the process, you know? Like, [00:23:00] w- when I, when I do a presentation, I ask a, a room full of people, you know, or I tell a room full of people, "Listen, if you don’t understand this stuff, just find yourself a 14-year-old and they’ll do it for you."

You know? And, and, and the r- the audience laughs because it’s such a true thing. And then I say to them, "You know, that is kinda funny, but I don’t know that we should any longer consider that acceptable," especially with what’s going on with AI and, and, and how criminal hackers have ramped up. And that if you look at your 14-year-old as like, "They know more about technology than I do," we’ve basically just thrown our hands up in the air and given up.

I don’t know that that’s truly okay or acceptable at this point, and that fatalism and misunderstanding what security is, which is about, you know, gaining control, versus what it isn’t, which is worry and fear and paranoia. I think that, like, that dichotomy prevents us from managing risk. And going forward, I think that, like, [00:24:00] everybody here today, you need to download a password manager.

You need to set up two-factor authentication. Like, you can’t look at your 14-year-old as, "They know more than I do about technology," and we can’t continue to engage in fatalistic views of what security is versus what it isn’t. And that, you know, it’s about time now because of what’s going on with AI, and especially if you’re considering working at home, um, no longer under, under the corporate umbrella, and many of us are getting those, those, those scammy emails from people that we know now whose email was compromised.

We get those emails to e- our inbox because it’s coming from their actual email, and it, it’s people that we know, like, and trust that says, "Hey, here’s the latest proposal. Click on the DocuSign link." And what you know is that they got hacked.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Robert Siciliano: And once that happens to you, your credibility’s out the window at this point

Tim Melanson: Yeah, it’s very difficult to recover from [00:25:00] something like that. Now, and, and, you know, one last thing on the password manager thing is that for me, it simplified my life pretty drastically. Like, I mean, some of these password managers just hook, hook right into your browser. Uh, I use LastPass, so hopefully that’s a good one.

But, but, uh, but it allows you to just… It just, it autofills your passwords. Like, why would you not do that? That’s so much faster.

Robert Siciliano: I’ve been using a password manager for 20 plus years, and it is the best use of my time, my money for my security and my privacy. It’s $17, $18 a year. Are you kidding me? And the beauty of it, just like you said, it saves time. The other thing is like, like I said, I’m 57. Like I’m still relatively young, but I could go any day now.

I mean, that’s the reality of it. None of us are guaranteed, you know, existence to our 80s, right? Car accident, heart attack, you name it, right? And I’ve had conversations with my girls and my wife. Like if and when I go, my password manager is, is, is my digital [00:26:00] life. You have access to every single investment account, every financial.

It is my continuity when I’m gone. And I’ve told them over and over again, "Pay for my mobile phone for at least a year after I’m gone," ’cause this is where the two-factor authentication is too. It’s continuity in our afterlife

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Uh, and actually these password managers will actually even, you can delegate someone to be your person once you go to. It, I mean, uh, yeah, I mean, I can’t say enough about it too. Password managers have been super, super helpful. And I, I like, I, I just think, you know, if you’re going to, um, say, "Well, I don’t know if I can trust the password manager," you can likely trust the password manager better than your one, two, three, four, five, six password, right?

So, you know, and, and for you to be able to remember all of these crazy passwords, it’s just, it, it’s just too much. Like, you’re not, you’re not gonna be able to do that. So it’s either you’re gonna be setting an easy password or setting a very difficult one and forgetting it [00:27:00] all the time. Why not use a password manager?

Y- it’s one crazy

Robert Siciliano: I’m not Rain Man. You know? I, I’m not Rain Man. I’m no savant. And, um, you know, at 57 I’m at capacity over here, you know? So, uh, it’s the best use of your time, your money, and your privacy. It… There’s really no reason not to at this point

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And then, uh, so then, uh, about your, you know, your home office and all that stuff, now we’ve talked about, you know, having, uh, a personal security system, right, at, at your house, and also now a, a password system. So now that’s protecting your computers, protecting your, your home itself. What, what else, what other practices can we have?

Robert Siciliano: So I mentioned two-factor authentication, and while that just sounds so remedial, um, look it, with pretty much everything that I explain to a live audience, I go to Google, right? And I’ll search password manager, and right there on the s- on the first page, uh, either AI Overview explains it to me and/or there’s a half a dozen articles on the first page of search from, like, PC Magazine that recommends, like, the top [00:28:00] 10 best password managers out there.

I’ll do the same thing for, um, what is a VPN or, or find me a VPN or VPN software. And the same thing, there’s five articles on the first page of search, you know, from Wired Magazine, from PC Magazine. They talk about the best VPNs out there. What’s a VPN? It’s a virtual private network software program that you download on your mobile phone or your laptop, so when you’re at the airport, the hotel, the resort, when you’re out and about using free Wi-Fi, it encrypts your data when you’re on that free Wi-Fi.

‘Cause generally, people that are working from home are, you know, working from, uh, uh, you know, in- Internet

Tim Melanson: shop. Yep

Robert Siciliano: Uh, you know, we, we, we, we’re out in public here and there. You know, we’re on the road. You know, there’s a reason for that, you know? And, um, you know, we’ve gotta protect our data for our clients when we’re out and about.

Like, that’s so important, you know? It… Not to is kinda criminal, you know? And, and in some cases, um, it [00:29:00] leads to class action lawsuits, you know, depending on the size and scope of your organization, and it can be detrimental to the, to the, to the survival of your business. So, uh, just, I just do a quick search for all of these different tools and tasks that are available to me, uh, and show them how that works, you know, for them.

And anything you want or need in regards to your information security or personal protection, search it quickly and right there it’s, it’s, uh, available to you online

Tim Melanson: Love it. Right on. Well, it’s time for your guest solo, so tell me what’s exciting in your business right now

Robert Siciliano: Well, I’ll tell you, uh, we’ve already discussed it. It’s

Tim Melanson: Yeah, it is

Robert Siciliano: look it, I’ve been doing what I do for, like I said, 30 years professionally and 40 years, like, been speaking on personal protection. And, you know, there was a time when… I mean, I’ve done, like, 500 TV shows. I’ve done Howard Stern twice. Like, I’ve done every major media that you can think of.

I’ve done China television, Russian television, you [00:30:00] know, uh, all the morning shows, Good Morning America, Today Show, like, all of them. W- ABC World News Tonight, Nightline, you name it, okay? Only thing I haven’t done is Oprah, right? That said, right, for years and years and years, what I would do is get called by the media to talk about, you know, the latest data breach, the latest vulnerability, okay?

I don’t get those calls anymore, um, because no one really cares at this point. Uh, I don’t get calls on data breaches any longer. Data breaches used to be, like, you know, hundreds of thousands of records. Now they’re tens of millions of records, and the media doesn’t even pick up on that stuff any longer.

Tim Melanson: No

Robert Siciliano: But now with AI, and AI-driven fraud, and deep fakes, and voice cloning, and organized crime basically fully involved using victims of human trafficking to perpetrate these crimes now, that awfulness, um, has [00:31:00] reinvigorated what it is that I do and what I speak to. So what I’m excited about is AI and how it’s being used, and how it can be used to protect us, too.

And that’s truly invigorated the topic of cybersecurity. It’s made what I do, like, Hollywood-level, James Bond 007, Mission Impossible, Tom Cruise, Minority Report stuff. It’s, it’s infused my topic with a tremendous amount of vigor. And, um, you know, that’s both good and bad. It’s a double-edged sword. Uh, but for, you know, those who are paying attention, the clock is ticking.

And if you wanna protect yourself and your family and your business, it’s so 101 at this point, the tools that are available to you, and all you gotta do is care about security. Put these systems in place and you’re gonna be good

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and, and a lot of them are free tools too. Like, a [00:32:00] lot of these password managers are free for the, the, you know, the basic level, right?

Robert Siciliano: Yeah. And if two-factor authentication is absolutely

Tim Melanson: Free.

Robert Siciliano: and yeah, and, and the, and what’s happening now is a lot of the big companies, Apple, Google, Microsoft, and so forth, Facebook, they’re all incorporating passkeys. And passkeys are the next level of password management. And the beauty of a password manager is a password manager will manage the keys for all your passkeys.

So even as password managers go out the way of the wooden nickel, or I’m sorry, passwords themselves go out the way of the wooden nickel, uh, password managers will not because they’ll be the primary, uh, tool that you’ll use to manage your passkeys. So get familiar with password managers now because as we phase out passwords themselves, passkeys are the next [00:33:00] step which the password managers will help you manage

Tim Melanson: Well, so, um, I, I’m just, what’s the difference between a passkey and a password then?

Robert Siciliano: A passkey is basically technology that’s going on in the background that recognizes your hardware, it recognizes your MAC address, it recognizes a number of factors about you, including existing passcodes. It recognizes biometrics. It recognizes a whole host of numerical identifiers, ultimately encrypting all of that into a crypto key of sorts, and it’s shared through various platforms.

And ultimately, it requires a number of different levels of authentication based on your hardware and your software and all those various data points in order t- for you to get access. And as we go, and as we continue to get improvement [00:34:00] on and ubiquitous of passkeys, um, we will begin to phase out passwords pretty quickly.

Because passwords themselves are basically, at this point, a single, like, nine, 10, 12, 24-character phrase or, you know, numerics, uppercase, lowercase, and so forth, that it’s gonna be gone. The passkey is that plus a half a dozen other, um, forms of authentication,

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm. Okay

Robert Siciliano: uh, that really can’t be cracked

Tim Melanson: Okay. So tell me, how do people work with you? Like, what, what is it that you do for a, for a client, and what kind of person would make a good client for you?

Robert Siciliano: So for me, um, I work with meeting planners, uh, VPs of security awareness training. I work with small businesses that truly recognize risk, and they wanna put systems in place, uh, to make their [00:35:00] employees that much more aware of risk. So I primarily provide security awareness training, is what we do. Um, that said, uh, I’m available at protectnowllc.com, protectnowllc.com.

Tim Melanson: Okay, awesome. And so this would be for mainly businesses that would want to train their workforce then

Robert Siciliano: Yeah, or those of you who just wanna connect, who wanna learn more, just Google me, you know, Robert Siciliano, S-I-C-I-L-I-A-N-O. Hook up with me on LinkedIn and just follow my blog, and my blog is really there to keep you up to speed and in tune with managing risk. Like, it’s nothing complicated. It’s all easy stuff.

Uh, what I write and what I put out there is generally for everyday people just to make sure that when the bad guys choose you, that they quickly move on to somebody else because you are already a tougher target

Tim Melanson: And, and that’s a good point there, right? And isn’t that kinda true? Like, if, if, if you’ve got, uh, someone who’s looking to break into your house, if you’ve got the door locked, and by the way, the, uh, it, it [00:36:00] reminded me of that when you were talking about the security system. Would you just go out and leave the door unlocked?

Like, I don’t know. Is that paranoid if you’re locking the door, right?

Robert Siciliano: of people do leave the door unlocked because they literally say, "I don’t wanna live like that. I just wanna be free. I don’t wanna have to worry. I trust people." And you know what? 97% of all the people that you will ever meet in the course of your life are truly worthy of your trust, 97%. But guess what?

And you can do your own research, people. Between three, they say about 3% of women and as many as 6% of men are basically, as the medical community would diagnose them, as sociopaths and psychopaths. About 3 to 6% sociopaths and psychopaths. These are people that truly have or experience no shame, no empathy, no sympathy, no guilt, no remorse.

They look at you and I as their natural prey. They are the lions and the wolves. We are the gazelles and the rabbits, and they look at [00:37:00] us as truly their victims. And there are a lot of people out there, 3 to 6%, making a lot of noise, doing a lot of harm.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Robert Siciliano: And I don’t say that to put the fear in anybody. I put that i- in you to say, "Yeah, I should know how to manage risk," because why wouldn’t you wanna know how to do that?

To adopt the, "It can’t happen to me. I don’t wanna live like that. Why bother? I just trust people," you’re just simply functioning in denial, denial is wonderful. Denial is just like this psychological thing that we all possess. Everybody possesses denial, and everybody, to a certain degree, lives to a certain degree in denial, right?

‘Cause denial allows us to not have to worry and, and, and experience anxiety and live in fear. So denial has its value. It’s great. But I don’t know that it’s really effective at all when it comes to managing [00:38:00] risk. I think we’ve gone… The, the pendulum has swung too far towards denial

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Robert Siciliano: and, um, you know, it’s causing a lot of people to lose it, l- to lose their access to their accounts, to lose money, to lose their businesses because they’ve allowed denial to take over their existence when it comes to security

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And,

uh, I mean, some of this stuff might be harder than others, but for the most part, the things we’ve talked about today, I mean, the, the basics, a password manager, it, it’s, it’s not gonna affect your life a whole lot. Uh, I mean, in fact, actually, password managers are probably gonna make your life a little bit simpler, ’cause now all of a sudden, you know, your passwords will, will be auto-filled for the most part.

Putting a security system in your house or locking the door, is it inconvenient sometimes? Well, I suppose, right? But you could put some s- s- some systems in place, and I’m sure that we could probably learn a little bit more about that on your blog then, right?

Robert Siciliano: Yeah, and I talk about like, you know, in this podcast, those basic, basic things because most [00:39:00] people don’t do those basic, basic

Tim Melanson: right. That’s

Robert Siciliano: And so what I teach is a ph- a philosophy, a methodology that I call the strategic human firewall. And the strategic human firewall is I, I, I, I move from I trust by default to I verify everything.

And most people just trust by default. Most people, like receiving phone calls and emails and text messages, they’re clicking links, they’re reacting, they’re responding. Like, they’re not a strategic human firewall at all. Like, they’re not seeing the motivation of that inbound, incoming communication.

Whereas like people like you and I, like we’re seeing, "Okay, what’s the motivation of this text? Is this really my state’s, you know, registry of motor vehicles sending me a fine because I didn’t pay a ticket or I didn’t pay my toll? So am I really gonna click the link to pay my toll or am I just gonna ignore it because it’s probably BS?"

You know? [00:40:00] Most people aren’t even doing that. So the idea is to become a strategic human firewall so you recognize risk as it’s coming down the pike, so to speak. And that’s a relatively easy thing to do. Like I tell my audiences all the time, I can make pretty much all of you the top 10% of secure Americans because the top 10% aren’t engaging in password managers, changing up their passcodes or using two-factor authentication, never mind locking their doors or installing a home security system.

You do those things, you’re in the top 10% right there, you know? ‘Cause 90% are soft, easy targets, whereas us 10% are strategic human firewalls, we’re hard targets

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, I think, and, uh, just as a general kind of like mindset too, anybody who’s, like, putting fear into you and saying, "You need to click on this right now, otherwise something’s gonna happen," uh, you [00:41:00] know, the, the, the thought I always have is like, "Okay, well, I’m reading this email right now. What if I had read it tomorrow or the next day?

Why is it so important within the next 48 hours?" It just seems obvious to me that, that, that this is a scam. But that’s how they operate, right? They try to catch you when you’re, when you’re, when you’re panicking.

Robert Siciliano: So you being a strategic human firewall innately already understand manufactured urgency.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm

Robert Siciliano: That’s what that is. Manufactured urgency is designed specifically to get our heart racing, to get our blood pumping, to get us to react and respond emotionally, right? And so we have this, this human blind spot that I call, that I talk about, and the human blind spot is, like, that we trust by default, that we want to and need to trust each other.

And that trust is, like, every person we meet, every phone call and email and text message we receive, we want to trust that the person on the other end [00:42:00] has our best interest in mind, that they don’t want or mean to hurt us. And so we, we wake up every day th- with that as being our baseline. And so when we get that phone call, when we get that email, when we get that text message with that manufactured urgency going into it that I want to and need to trust people, and that ruse has that urgency to it, but it could be probable.

I mean, it’s, it’s likely that that could be real, right? Or there’s a possibility it could be real. We don’t wanna think that evil, the sociopaths and the psychopaths, have targeted us. And our denial, and it can’t happen to me, and security is a bad thing, prevents us from recognizing risk.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Robert Siciliano: The physics of this makes so much sense to me, and they should to your audience at this point, ’cause probably nobody’s ever actually explained it like that.

But once you become that strategic human firewall, all of a sudden you’re like, "Yeah, I, I, I see what’s happening. I [00:43:00] see that and understand that manufactured urgency now. Oh, as my heart begins to pump, stop. Like, stop what I’m doing. Recognize, okay, so what’s really happening here? What are they trying to actually do?

Is this really true or is it fake?" And chances are 100% of the time it’s gonna be fake, especially with manufactured urgency. 100% of the time. I’m not gonna say 99.9, I’m gonna say 100.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yep, I agree. Right. Okay, so let’s talk about music for a second. Who is your favorite rock star or band?

Robert Siciliano: So you see what’s going on behind me? That, that’s, that’s Led Zeppelin’s song Remains the Same

Tim Melanson: Oh my. Okay. Well, of course.

Robert Siciliano: Yeah. So, uh, I am a big Led Zeppelin fan. Um, I actually owned ledzeppelin.com from, like, 1995 to 2001. Uh, it didn’t end so well. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I’m, I’m a big Zep head. My license plate on my car is Led Zep. [00:44:00] License plate on my bike is, um, Z-E-P-L-N. License plate on my wife’s car, because it used to be my plate, is Z-E-P-L-N 2, which is the best album.

And, um, yeah, I mean, I’m a big Zeppelin fan

Tim Melanson: Did you, do you play guitar at all? Ah.

Robert Siciliano: Oh, I am not a musician. My girls are musicians. Uh, they’ve been playing ever since they were three. So, um, but, uh, I don’t have the ability, no

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Well, that’s awesome. It’s so awesome talking to you, Robert. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks so much.

Robert Siciliano: My pleasure. Thank you

Tim Melanson: Awesome, and to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information, and we’ll see you next time on the Work at Home Rockstar

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work At Home Rockstar podcast. I’m excited for today’s episode. We’re talking to the owner of For Your Eyes Only LLC, and we can see how he helps people. He’s the love doctor, so he’s a relationship expert. I’m really excited to be talking a little bit more about that.

Uh, but we are welcoming Anil Gupta to the show today. Anil, are you ready to rock?

Anil Gupta: I am.

I’m … We’re gonna band together,

Tim Melanson: We are Band together.

I like

Anil Gupta: we’re gonna, we’re gonna, gonna create a, an amazing tune that you can all listen to that I promise you will provide massive value for you today

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Well, we do always start off on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by

Anil Gupta: So, you know, I was suicidal in 2008, and they said no. Uh, it was the best thing that ever happened to me because from there I started speaking on stages, five, 10, 15, 20, 100, 500, eventually 10,000 people. Wrote a [00:01:00] book… Wrote three bestseller books, actually. TEDx, Fox News, Sky TV, ABC, NBC, iHeartRadio, Harvard. You know, who would think a guy like me would end up at Harvard?

And it, it’s all because of that time, 2008 November, that I thought my life wasn’t worth it. So whatever you’re going through, know that this too shall pass, and it’s not what happens in life, it’s who you become. I– On that day, I changed my identity from money to love, and then when I changed it to love, I became a billionaire because I stopped using the currency of the United States of America and changed it to love, camaraderie, friendship, giving, generosity, playfulness, fun, gratitude, growth.

The simple things in life became the big things in life

Tim Melanson: Wow. Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah, uh, this, this too shall pass, right? And, I [00:02:00] mean, you know, you, you think about that when the bad things are happening, but also the good things pass too, unfortunately. Uh, but I guess you have to have a bit of a, I don’t know, a, a level playing field here ’cause, I mean, if you get too excited about the good things, then it kinda drops you into a bit of a depression when they do pass, right?

Anil Gupta: Well, that’s, that’s what happened to the astronauts. You know, they, they’d go to the moon, they’d come back, they’d have this ticker tape, and then no one thought about them again, so they would go into these deep depressions. So the secret is, really it’s, it’s the happiness formula. Uh, you know, I’ve developed a formula for happiness, which is G times G times G.

Y- The first G, you have to give your time, your energy, your love, your commitment, your joy, your gift. And that’s what I started to do. I gave my stuff away. And then when you give, you feel good, and when you feel good, all the pain and suffering disappears.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Anil Gupta: And when you give, you feel good. The person receiving the gift receives endorphins.

They feel good. [00:03:00] The person observing the gift feels good. The person sharing the giving feels good. The person receiving the sharing feels good. The person observing the giving of the sharing feels good. So it has a huge effect. We never know what other people are going through. So if you play the right tune, if you can say the right words, someone’s life will change

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and isn’t it interesting that it seems as though the people who are the most quiet, the ones that don’t really say anything, sometimes are going through some pretty crazy things, right? And I, I mean, it’s, it’s just sad when you see somebody that you think was doing great, right? And then you find out that something happens to them, and it’s, it’s very, it’s very difficult to really know whether someone is going through something or not.

So you might as well just give anyway, right?

Anil Gupta: Yeah. And giving is just a smile, a thank you, helping them with something, you know, commenting [00:04:00] something, edifying them, m- making them laugh,

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Anil Gupta: and you never know the impact we have on people. You see, people will always remember how you made them feel. One of my favorite stories is a young man, he’s at univer- he’s at school, and then he packs up his bags, and he’s going home and some kids were messing with him.

He th- his books fell on the floor, and then someone came and helped him put all his books back in his bag. And then seven, eight years later, he was valedictorian. He was doing a speech, and he said, "You know, eight years ago, you may not know, although I’m, you know, the head boy, the, you know, the valedictorian, I was on the verge of suicide, but my friend saved me by just befriending me in that moment, because I cleaned out my desk, I was going to end it that night, but I didn’t."

So whatever you’re going through, there’s someone there for you, and this too shall pass. [00:05:00] By you performing an act of kindness, we have no idea the difference we’re making to someone’s life

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I agree. Wow. Well, okay, so now, I mean, there’s a bit of bad notes in th- in these stories as well. It seems like the good notes and the bad notes kinda intermingle a little bit, don’t they? But I, uh, I, I do wanna give you another opportunity to talk about these bad notes because I think a lot of people are held back by, by making a mistake.

You know, they’re worried that something’s not gonna work out well. And so I like to make sure that people know that, hey, you know what? You can still get success even though you’re gonna make some mistakes. So can you share with me another, some mistake that happened to you?

Anil Gupta: Well, obviously I’d lost all that money. There, there were many mistakes there. But I remember a friend of mine said, "Anil, you’ve helped me, you’ve helped my wife in, in our relationship. Why don’t you do an event?"

Tim Melanson: Hmm

Anil Gupta: And I sort of, I looked at him and said, "Well…" And he said, "What’s wrong?" I said, "I’m scared." And he said, "What are you scared about?"

I said, "What if no one turns up?" So I was so concerned what other people thought. [00:06:00] Then he said this to me, and it changed my life. "Anil, if no one turns up, no one will know." And I thought, "Ah, I love that."

Tim Melanson: Wow

Anil Gupta: that’s how it started. So always s- you know, the one thing I learned from Richard Branson was always say yes and work it out afterwards.

Tim Melanson: Yep

Anil Gupta: uh, someone asked me to speak in Medellin, Colombia, in a bullring, and he said, "Oh, there’s gonna be over 10,000 people there." I said, "Yeah, I’ll do it." When I got there, I thought, "What am I doing here? I can’t do this. I’m not good enough." And then I got out of my head. I,

Tim Melanson: Sorry, my

dog’s barking.

Anil Gupta: That’s okay. I disappeared, and my greatness appeared.

So when you disappear, let your greatness come out. You know, we- we- we’re very musically based today, and this is what happens when a musician plays. They [00:07:00] disappear, their greatness appears, and that’s what we need to do in life. Let go of the ego, let go of the fear, and just step into courage. When you do that, it’ll add more years to your life and more life to your years

Tim Melanson: That’s amazing. Amazing. If no one shows up, no one will know. I love that. That is so good. And, uh, you know, the other thing that you said that I really wanna touch on, too, is say yes and then figure it out. Ugh, so many times people will say no to an opportunity ’cause they don’t have it completely all figured out in their heads.

And I think, I think there is a little bit of, like, well, you gotta be prepared enough, I guess, to say… Like, I mean, don’t, you know, go off the deep end on this thing. But on the other hand, I mean, what better motivation than you have a gig booked? Like, I know in music when, when, uh, when I’m trying to, [00:08:00] uh, help new musicians get started, they’re like, "Oh, you know, I’m having a hard time, you know, putting a band together.

I’m having a hard time this." I always say to them the same thing. This is what I did. I booked the gig three months out, and then lo and behold, the band f- showed up ’cause, I mean, as, uh, a musician, you know, if someone comes to you and says, "I have a gig booked. It pays, and it’s on this date. Do you wanna do it?"

I’m in. But if it’s like, "Oh, I’ve got some things that we maybe might eventually start a band," well, it’s gonna be a little bit harder for you to find the people that are gonna join you if you don’t have anything solid. So it’s the same thing here, right? If you say yes to an opportunity, you got a gig booked.

Now it’s time to put things together, and you will be able to find people to help you, too, won’t you?

Anil Gupta: Yeah. And you know what happens? You start asking better quality questions. You ask yourself, "How can I get this done? What else can I do? Who can I ask?" Whereas if you don’t say yes, there’s, there’s no impetus. [00:09:00] There, there’s no compelling reason to do anything. You can just be comfortable about being comfortable.

And as human beings, we only make progress when we’re uncomfortable about anything. See, as human beings, we get comfortable about being comfortable, and what we need to do is become uncomfortable about being comfortable and get comfortable about being uncomfortable, and that’s when our greatness appears.

We make the biggest impact

Tim Melanson: Yeah, like what is it they say something about idle hands or something like that? Like, it, it’s just if you’ve got nothing going on, it, you get bored, you get in your head. If you’re way too busy, it, you, you get more done. I mean, they, they always say that is that whatever you have to get done, you know, sort of shrinks or grows to the amount of time you have to get it done, right?

Anil Gupta: Yeah.

And you know, there’s so much capacity within us that has not been tapped

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, so let’s talk a little bit about practicing, and this [00:10:00] can mean a lot of different things. I mean, in the, i- i- it, it can mean, you know, a, a personal care routine. It can also mean getting good and being good at what you do in your business. Uh, how do you, you know, approach practicing? Like, what do you do?

Anil Gupta: So, um, I go out and speak. I’m not a trained speaker, uh, but you have to start. So I started with me in the mirror, one person, five people, and you just have to practice, practice, practice. And as you get more comfortable, you, you get a download of so much energy, so much joy, so much content, so much clarity that it’s just like driving a car.

When you’re first driving, you’re very nervous, but eventually you become unconsciously competent. Meaning you’ll drive for an hour and think, "Oh, I can’t remember where I went," because you’re so good at it. [00:11:00] That’s the place you wanna get to, and the only way to do that is to, to do, to be, and to get into that state where you’re doing things repetitively.

You know, people say, uh, you know, they ask a question, "How many hours does it take to g- get good at something?" You’ll be shocked. You know what the answer is? Twenty hours. If you did something for twenty hours… Now, the secret is you have to do it in immersion, an hour a day, two hours a day. If you– Like I l- I tried to learn French at school, we would do an hour a week.

I didn’t learn very much until I went to France. That’s where I learnt everything. So you have to immerse yourself. Think about it. If you wanna be a better tennis player, twenty hours. If you want to be a better chess player, twenty hours. If you want a better musician, twenty hours. It’s less than a day. In just one day, your life can change

Tim Melanson: Wow. That’s, uh, I didn’t know [00:12:00] that statistic, but I mean, 20 hours is, uh, is doable, and it’s one of those things that y- I imagine you, like you say, immersion, you have to get right into it because you are gonna learn more by being around musicians, for example, than trying to figure it out on your own.

Uh, although nowadays, in every area, including, uh, music, we’ve got YouTube. Like, there are ways that you can actually immerse yourself into something, you know, by actually seeing somebody, you know, and even better would be probably to get a person to teach you, right?

Anil Gupta: You know, the fastest way is through a mentor, a coach. So I’ve, I’ve coached Wimbledon, US Open champions, French Open, Italian Open champions, and each of them has a coach. And the coach will give you that 1% difference, and that’s the difference between number one and number three. And every day, the definition of success is make progress every day.

If you’re making progress, you’re being– you’re gonna get very [00:13:00] successful. You just have to get better and better, and the fastest way to do that is with a coach or a mentor. Someone who’s been there, done it before, can guide you and has the expertise and the results

Tim Melanson: Wow. How do you know whether the coach that you’ve got… ‘Cause I mean, there’s a lot of people that are calling themselves coaches nowadays, right? But how do you know whether you got a good one or not?

Anil Gupta: You ask them for credentials. Where have they spoken? Do you have any video testimonials? Never accept a written testimonial. Show me 50 video testimonials. "Well, I, I don’t have 50." Show me what stages you’ve spoken on. Let me hear you speak. Give me one tip right now that would change my life.

And if they can’t do it… Uh, so Tim, let me, uh, give you a recent example. I was coaching a client, and I asked her, "How long have you been using this therapist?" She said, "Three years." [00:14:00] And I said, "You’ve been using this person for three years, and you’re in this predicament, and you called me, and in 20 days we’ve done this.

I’ve saved your marriage. We’ve saved your marriage. We’ve resolved some issues. We’ve handled this. We’ve handled that, and we’ve handled this." And she wrote me a note yesterday, "Thank you for saving my life. Thank you for giving me my, back my marriage." That’s what you want. You want someone who’s got credibility.

Don’t look for initials after their name. I don’t care what initials you have after your name. Can you do what I want you to do? Can you do it quickly? Can you prove that you can do it? Do people believe you can do it? Do you have expertise?

Tim Melanson: Yeah, yeah. And so now if we, if we flip that to the other side, let’s just say that someone is looking to get into the coaching industry. So then how would they start to get these testimonials if they don’t have the credentials yet or the testimonials yet?

Anil Gupta: I didn’t have them, so [00:15:00] I, I would coach for free. I would say to people, "Hey, can I coach you, guide you, nurture you, mentor you? And if you like what I say, would you give me a, a testimonial?" You, you have to get started. If you wanna climb a mountain, you’ve got to take the first step, and, uh, it’s painful because you’re giving away things, but you feel good.

But also, you’re getting ready to be the best version of you. You’re, you’re, you’re tweaking, defining, cleaning up, learning, growing, becoming even more successful, and making an even better quality deliverable

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, that goes back to your first point about just getting out there and doing it and speaking. Like, I mean, y- you’re 100% right. You don’t really know… Like, in, in music, I mean, I can sit in my basement and practice all I want, and I might even get it perfect in the basement, right? But then as soon as you get on a stage, everything’s different.

Like, it’s, it’s very, very different, and all of a sudden you can’t even do the things that you could do in your basement, right? Uh, so, [00:16:00] uh, it’s, I imagine, well, it, it is the same with any business too. Like, you can practice all you want alone, and that’s great. You know, you will get to a certain point. But really, the real learning comes from getting out there and actually doing it with live scenarios.

And, uh, I know that, uh, one of the things that I do notice, and maybe you’ve got a comment on this, is, uh, you know, when I’m hosting open mics and open jams and stuff like that, sometimes you’ll have people that are a little bit scared. They’re, they’re like, "Okay, I don’t know if I wanna go on stage." It’s their first time, right?

They get up on stage, and then, uh, you know, the s- the song goes okay, right? We’ll say that, that it’s, it’s good, but it could h- it could improve, right? There are certain people that come off the stage and they are addicted. They wanna get right back up on stage. And then there’s other people that are like, "I’m never doing that again."

What do you think would be the difference between those two people?

Anil Gupta: See, uh, everything that we do, we do for one reason only, [00:17:00] and that’s for the feeling it gives us. We have a nice meal, a great relationship, a nice car, a nice house, money in the bank for the feeling it gives us. So if you go on stage and you feel great, you can lap up the energy. You f- you feel, you know, important, you feel heard, you feel listened to, you feel you’re making a difference, that’s gonna energize you.

But if you’re feeling, "Oh, this– they’re judging me. I’m, I’m not a good speaker. I don’t feel comfortable," that’s okay. Maybe that’s not your, your gig, so to speak, but it’s, it’s around the feeling. I remember when I started, uh, speaking, I, I, I was very uncomfortable. It, it was actually at university. I thought, "Why am I doing this?"

It was part of the course. But then as I started to, to go on stage, I felt good because I disappeared. I started helping people. When you help someone, that’s when you, when you feel good. And you know, if you’re a musician, there’s someone out there that, that is [00:18:00] resonating with you, and you’re changing their lives.

So the more you speak, the more you play your notes, the, the more you’re out there, the more difference you’re gonna make

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, and, and I think, like, one thing that we don’t, I don’t think enough about, I think, is that everybody’s at a different stage in their journey, right? Some people are v- just getting started. Some people might be, like, well on their way. And for somebody who is getting on stage for that first time and doing their thing, well, there’s somebody in the audience that hasn’t done that yet.

And they’re actually starting to feel a little bit inspired by you going out there and getting on that stage and trying something out for the first time. And so you never know who you’re inspiring by getting up there, even if you’re very, very new in your journey, ’cause there’s somebody who’s fur- who’s n- not quite as far as you are, right?

Anil Gupta: Yeah, always. And you know, there are only two types of people on the planet, ones that make you happy when you enter a room, ones [00:19:00] that make you happy when you leave a room. Ones that, ones that make you happy when they get on stage, ones that make you happy when they get off the stage. And, and it’s okay.

It’s okay. We, w- you know, sometimes I look at people say, "Ah, if he can do it, I can do it. If she can do it, I can do it." So we never know who we’re inspiring. We never know the difference we’re making

Tim Melanson: Yep. Yeah, it, yeah, because that’s exactly it. Sometimes people might be looking at you and going like, "Wow, if that person can do it, I can do it." They’re inspired. And then the other side of it is, "Wow, that person’s really good. I just learned so much from them." S- you know, two different people on the stage, two different, uh, journeys, and you’re still inspiring people, right?

Anil Gupta: Yeah, it’s, it’s, you know, to be able to change someone’s life, to me

is the greatest thing you can do

Tim Melanson: Right on. Let’s talk about the tools that we use for success. What are the, what are some of the

things that you do to achieve the success in your career?

Anil Gupta: Yeah. So o-one of the tools I have is this one [00:20:00] sentence: Be so amazing that you cannot be ignored, and if you’re ignored, it doesn’t matter because you’re showing up the best version of you. See, a lot of us are playing small. We’re comfortable about being comfortable But there’s so much greatness inside of us.

We need to disappear, let our greatness appear. Be so amazing. So today I was playing pickleball, and I spilled some coffee on the floor. I could have left it there, but I thought, "Anil, you have to be so amazing." So I, I used my foot to try and clean it, but it was still slippery. "Anil, could you be more amazing?"

I said, "I suppose I could." So I got some tissues, and I cleaned it right up. So that creates, uh, a pathway for me to be the best version of me by being able to focus on other people

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And it’s the little wins too, right? People, you know, if, if you leave those little things, like a spot on the [00:21:00] floor or maybe your desk uncleaned, that sort of spirals into other things. Whereas, on the other hand, if you could make a check mark next to that and say, "Yeah, I did that well," it just inspires you to do more, doesn’t it?

Anil Gupta: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, again, on the pickleball court, there’s a friend of mine who, who has a problem with his hamstring, and I said, "You should get a, a thigh support. You should get a thigh support." He hasn’t done it I have one here. I’ve, I brought in one. I’m gonna give it to him tomorrow. He, he … I care for him.

I didn’t have to do it. Why should I do it? It’s his life. But no, that’s been so amazing you cannot be ignored

Tim Melanson: Wow, that’s amazing too. Oh, okay, so it’s time for your guest solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your business right now

Anil Gupta: So I’m really excited about a program I’m releasing. Um, it’s helping singles find their ideal partner without [00:22:00] dating. It’s called the Smart Select System. You see, people say yes to a relationship until it becomes a no, and that’s not the way to do it. It’s a– it, it’s no until a yes. You’ve got to collect the data.

You’ve got to make an informed choice. You’ve got to know how to talk to people, how to c-collect the data, interpret the data, and look for people who are not telling you the truth, and then analyzing and making a decision. M-my daughter used this process. First boyfriend she married, he’s a twelve out of ten.

I use this process. I’ve been married, you know, thirty-seven years, seven months and nine days, not that I’m counting. But if you use the formula, everything works. It’s called the Smart Select System. What if your next partner was the right one? What if your next partner gave you [00:23:00] total certainty because you made the right choice?

It’s all about choices, my friends.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Wow. Why do you think people s- have so much trouble with relationships?

Anil Gupta: Well, imagine, you know, you, you’ve got a child and your friend’s got, you know, you meet some, uh, other kids. What, what do parents say to their children? "Oh, is that your boyfriend? Is that your girlfriend?" At the age of two, three, four. It’s ridiculous. You know? You, you’re not ready for a relationship until at least 19, 20, 21.

Uh, my daughter was telling me her friends have relationships at the age of 13. They break up, they, they’re fighting, then they have another one, then another one. And each time they think this is the one, this is … Well, no. They have no idea. Focus on being a child. Focus on having fun. Focus on the most important things at the time.

You have [00:24:00] plenty of time. You have 80 years of relationship ahead of you. There’s no rush. But we’re indoctrinated through media, through television, uh, this romance. You think, "Oh, this is so romantic." No. It … You’re making one of the biggest decisions of your life. You can’t just base it on the feeling of, "I think this is right.

I feel good." No. You’ve got to collect the data, and it’ll stop a lot of pain and suffering

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I, I couldn’t agree more with that. That’s a… Yeah, and, uh, w- we also have this sort of, like, negative stigma towards being single as well, and, "Oh, you don’t have a relationship? Like, what, what’s wrong with you?" Right? And I mean, meanwhile, you know, you have so many people that are staying in relationships that are even abusive.

Like, I, I mean, I mean, it, it, it blows my mind that not only can it not be the right person, but it actually can hurt you, and they’re staying in because it’s better than being sing- single, I guess[00:25:00]

Anil Gupta: Well, a-again, it’s what other people think of them. They, they, they, they … The feeling that they get from having a relationship is far greater than the feeling of not being in a relationship. They don’t wanna be judged. They don’t wanna be criticized. They don’t wanna be complained to. And it’s sad that, you know, people would choose that.

And it’s okay not to have a relationship. You’re not gonna … You’re not alone. You’re not lonely. You just haven’t found the right person, and there’s no rush. If, you know, if, if you … You know, the most important part of a race is not the start, it’s the finish. So if you’re 30 or 35 and then you find the right partner, you have 65 years of a beautiful relationship.

But if you make it the wrong decision and you start having kids, it, it’s the most painful, painful situation you could ever imagine. See, emotional pain is far more painful than [00:26:00] physical pain. So there’s no rush, but we’re indoctrinated in having to do that. So if you put five crabs in a bucket and one tries to leave, the other four will pull it down.

We’re made to feel so guilty. What’s wrong with you? You know, if you have four couples and a single, he, he feels guilty. He feels different. He thinks, "Oh, I wanna fit in. I, I wanna belong." And that’s one of the issues that people have nowadays

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And meanwhile, you know, chances are the, many of those couples, probably not all of them, but, but many of them are not actually happy with what they’re doing, and the single might actually be happy. And the only thing that they’re not happy about is the stigma that they have, that they carry about being single, right?

Anil Gupta: Absolutely. It, it, it’s a, it’s a terrible state to be in, but it’s human nature

Tim Melanson: It is. It is. So tell me a little bit more about,

like, what, what is it like to work with you? Like, what, how does that work?

Anil Gupta: So, um, the, my promise is this. [00:27:00] If, if you work with me, w- you have a session with me, I promise you, you, you will learn something that will enhance your life. Guaranteed. And if, if it doesn’t, next call is free. So my, my, my gift is this. I can remove the obstacles that are preventing you from leading a richer, fuller, happier life.

When we do work together, it’ll add more years to your life and more life to your, your years. You’ll get clarity. You will never make the wrong choice in a partner. And how much joy would that bring you? How much suffering would that save you? And that’s my gift. Uh, uh, I’m able to do that

Tim Melanson: So do you work with, with singles looking for a relationship or people already in a relationship? What’s, h- which one

Anil Gupta: So I, I, I help singles find their ideal partner through the smart select system, but I also help couples and families get clarity, learn a [00:28:00] language, communicate, overcome the obstacles so that there’s more harmony and unity in the family. So any obstacle that’s preventing you from having a richer love life or a richer feeling of love, I’m the guy

Tim Melanson: Wow. Okay. And if you’re working with a couple, do both partners have to be kind of buying in on this, or would you work with one part of the couple to help them?

Anil Gupta: So, um, it can b- work both ways. Normally, I would work with one person, and then as I work with that person and as they implement my techniques, the other person notices, "Hey, my husband’s being very more attentive. He’s listening to me more. He’s, he’s understanding me more. He’s doing more." So then she’s thinking, "What’s going on?"

And then I would invite her onto a call with the husband, and then h- that’s how it all starts. But there [00:29:00] has to be a change the other person sees. Once they see the change, it’s a no-brainer because the c- compounding effect of that over many years is enormous

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And, and doesn’t that seem to be the case, well, with just about anything, even just business, is that you can’t change anybody else. The only thing you can do is change yourself, right? And I think that’s uncomfortable for a lot of people, thinking that, "Well, I’m the problem," so they’re not… They’re trying to avoid being the problem, I guess would probably be why they decide to not make the change on their side.

Um, but I don’t think it’s, I don’t think that’s the way you’d put it. What is it?

Anil Gupta: No, and you know, it’s easy

to say, "Oh, can you fix my wife?"

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Anil Gupta: And w- "I don’t wanna do the work, but can you fix her?" You know, it’s all about her, and honestly, it’s not. You know, for example, I would l- always leave the toilet seat up, and then she, my wife would complain. But I, I said, "I’m not gonna change. I’m not gonna change."

Then one day she said this to me, "Honey, every time you do [00:30:00] that, I can’t love you as much." And I thought, "Oh, that’s a bit steep." Then I thought, "No, she’s right," and then I changed, and when I changed, she changed. If, if you want your partner to change, you have to change. Once you change, they will change. It’s so easy

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, it is. And o- on the other side, maybe if you put the s- the seat down, she can, she can definitely love you enough. Maybe, maybe the positive, uh, reinforcement, right?

Anil Gupta: Uh, it, it, I, I would remind her. Um, yeah, the other thing, I recently fractured my, my wrist and I couldn’t put the toothpaste tube, toothpaste on my, uh, toothbrush, and she would do it for me.

Tim Melanson: Hmm.

Anil Gupta: You know? It’s the simple thing. It’s the small things that are the big things

Tim Melanson: Yep. Yeah, it is. And I mean, we see that on the opposite side too, right? ‘Cause I mean, isn’t it kind of the small things that really make people blow up in- into something? Like, it’s not … The, the big things, I think people can kind of like grasp [00:31:00] that this is a crisis and they have to deal with it, and they’re a little bit more patient, I guess.

But the little things are the ones that really just kinda grind on you, right?

Anil Gupta: Yeah, the, the really the breaking point, you know, it, it just builds and builds and builds and human beings, we’re really good at stacking, so we can stack all the negative stuff, but we’re not good at stacking the positive stuff, so we focus on the negative. And if, if, for example, if you have a good wolf on your right shoulder and a bad wolf on your left shoulder, which one will win?

Tim Melanson: The one you feed.

Anil Gupta: The one you feed. So start feeding the good wolf. Start feeding the good habits. Start feeding the giving, the gratitude, the growing, and your life will change

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Uh, I agree with that for sure. Awesome. So now, uh, how, how do people get to work with you? Is it like a group program? Is it one-on-one coaching? Like, h- how does this work?

Anil Gupta: The, the, the, the best and fastest way is one-on-one coaching with me. And if you need to, [00:32:00] uh, have a conversation with me, you can book a time with me, chatwithaneil.com. It’ll s- book you a time with me. We’ll have a conversation. I’ll show exactly what I can do. And in that call, you will experience a positive shift towards leading a richer, fuller, happier life.

Because I have to prove to you that it’s worth working with me. I have to, and I will

Tim Melanson: Awesome. All right, chatwithaneel.com. That’s awesome. All right, we’re gonna shift gears a little bit and get into music for just a few minutes. So tell me, who is your favorite rock star or band?

Anil Gupta: Uh, I like Queen, I like The Beatles,

I like Simon & Garfunkel, The Carpenters They’re probably my top, top ones

Tim Melanson: Wow. Have you seen any of them live in concert before?

Anil Gupta: I’ve seen The Beatles here in Orlando. Oh my goodness me.

Tim Melanson: Oh.

Anil Gupta: had a wonderful experience. And I tell you what happened, I [00:33:00] was in the nosebleeds, and I, uh, then I went down to, um, to get some food and I saw some people leaving the two and a half thousand dollar ticket, uh, area. And I said, "Hey, are you leaving?"

And they said, "Yes." I said, "What are you doing with your ticket?" They said, "Here you go." So they gave us their tickets. They left early, you know, maybe half an hour early. So we got to be front row and it was magical. It was magical experience. This was maybe about five, 10 years ago. It was, um Yeah, uh, I can’t believe how old that man is, and he’s still rocking and rolling

Tim Melanson: Oh, right on. So you saw Paul McCartney then?

Anil Gupta: No, no, no. Hold, hold on, hold on. It wasn’t The Beatles

Ah.

Oh my

Tim Melanson: Stones?

Anil Gupta: Rolling Stones.

Tim Melanson: Yes.

Anil Gupta: Rolling Stones. [00:34:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah

Tim Melanson: Yes, they are still touring. Yeah, I was like, "Oh, could’ve

Anil Gupta: I was amazed. I was amazed. Yeah

Tim Melanson: Y- yeah, I’ve seen the Rolling Stones as well, and what a show they put on. That was incredible. And like you say, I think it was probably about 10 years ago. Uh, no, uh, maybe, maybe 15 now that I think about it.

But I mean, uh, still I mean, they’re such… Still rocking. It’s so cool

Anil Gupta: Yeah, great value. You know, so much energy. It’s not like they were, they were jumping up and down and being, you know, so extroverts. Unbelievable experience

Tim Melanson: Right on. Wow, that’s amazing. Well, thank you so much for rocking out with me today, Anil. This has been a lot of fun

Anil Gupta: No, thank you. Thank you. I enjoyed it very much

Tim Melanson: Awesome. And to the guests, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information, and we’ll see you next time on the Work at Home Rockstar podcast

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work At Home Rockstar podcast. Today, I am talking to the owner of Matt O’Neill Real Estate. He’s also, uh, Tide Property Management, and also he’s a happiness coach. Super excited to hear more about that. But what he does is he helps people get out of the nine to five.

So I’m super excited to be rocking out today with Matt O’Neill. Hey, Matt, are you ready to rock?

Matt O’Neill: What’s up, Tim? Ready to rock

Tim Melanson: Ready to rock. So we always start off here on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, man. I, uh, I thought I was gonna be an engineer my whole life because my dad was an engineer, my older brother was an engineer, my little brother became an engineer, and I was going to school for engineering. And, uh, I went actually on an internship to General Motors as an engineer, and I hated it. It was the w- it was like, it was like a slow death in a cubicle.

And I thought, "Man, I can’t do this." Like, I can’t, I can’t do this for the rest of my life, [00:01:00] this like stuck in a cubicle, pushing spreadsheets, trying to work up this corporate ladder And, uh, I w- I went back to s- to college that fall, and I walked into what I thought was, like, a, a fun department, the marketing department.

I’m like, "Man, this might be more fun than engineering." And this guy grabbed me at the front desk as I’m trying to talk to the girl about becoming a marketing major, and he’s like, "You know what? You should take my sales course." And I’m like, "Dude, I’m way above sales. Like, I’m an engineer, you know? This is… I, I’m not gonna be some salesperson."

And he said, "Well, you can say that, but you do need to sell your marketing ideas to the CEO, so my sales course will help you with that." He was a great salesman, by the way. His name’s Jim Eckert. He runs the sales department at Western Michigan University. I signed up for his course, and then I fricking loved it.

Like, I, I… It was just like, it was so fun because I like talking with people, and I enjoyed the psychology behind it. So bec- I switched my [00:02:00] major to sales. And then getting out of college, I took a 9:00 to 5:00 sales job because, you know, it’s kind of like the path. You, you get out of college, you take a job.

And then it was soul-crushing as well. I was selling the toner cartridges that go inside of copy machines,

Tim Melanson: Wow,

Matt O’Neill: and nobody cares, man. And it… And they weren’t even new toner cartridges. I was selling ones that were recycled. So we took old garbage out of the garbage in these recycled toner cartridges and filled them back in with toner, and then that’s what I sold through the streets of Denver, Colorado.

And the bosses were really, like, on, on us. Like, super oppressive. It was a Christmas Eve afternoon, like 4 o’clock or 3 o’clock, and we’re goofing around and laughing in the office because it’s Christmas Eve. And the boss comes out of his office and yells at us to get back to work. Like, it was total Scrooge scenario.

And I thought, "Okay, I can’t keep doing this, man." [00:03:00] So, um, I did love sales, but I just didn’t like that type of environment. So I thought, "How could I work for myself and use this skill that I enjoy?" And I decided I would get into real estate because no boss, right? And I can sell, and there’s nobody to r- you know, basically you are your own business owner.

So I got into real estate. But then what I didn’t know was that I would have 40 bosses, because every client that hired me was now my boss. And so I worked into this situation where I was really successful and learned a bunch about how to sell real estate, but my weekends weren’t actually free. It wasn’t the freedom I thought it was gonna be.

Um, people were upset, or, like, somebody was supposed to show their house and didn’t show up, and they’re calling me on a Saturday night, like, drunk and, and so upset about this thing that happened. Or somebody let the cat out. And I’m like, "Wow, how did I go from one [00:04:00] boss to 40 bosses?" And, um, then I thought, "Okay, so there’s gotta be a better way than this."

And I thought, "I will, I will teach other people how to sell the real estate, and so they can have all the bosses." And I did that, and started to just hire a bunch of people, and then let them work with the clients and train them. And that’s, that’s one of the things I do now. Um, it’s just, uh, there is a, there’s a book called The Cashflow Quadrants that was written by Robert Kiyosaki,

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Matt O’Neill: and he, he talked about the first quadrant is you work for somebody, and the next quadrant is you work for yourself, and that’s what I was when I was that real estate agent.

The next quadrant is you own a business. And I really didn’t own a business because all the people that worked for me selling real estate, they, they count on me, so I have a job. Even though I can… I’m in, I’m in my home right now, and they’re out there doing their thing, I still, I still need, um, you know, [00:05:00] I still need to, to coach them and help them and train them and all that stuff.

So I thought, "What is a business that has recurring cashflow that I could, that I could own and not work in?" So three years ago, we started a property management company, and that is a true B quadrant asset where I hired somebody to, to run it. I hired people to, to sell in it. I hired people to do all of it.

And I just sit back as an owner, not a CEO, and let those people run this particular company, and it’s, and it’s becoming really successful. I’ve got a lot of experience in sales and marketing and all these things that I learned over the years running a real estate company. So I’ll guide them and give them some advice, like I’m, I’m like on their board.

But, um, that is a true work from home style business asset

Tim Melanson: Wow. Matt, that was such a great story. [00:06:00] And you know what? I, I have a similar story, too, and I hope people listening can get that. It’s like every time you get to one point, you’re like, "Okay, that’s what I thought I wanted, but now I need to refine that." You keep on refining and refining and refining until you get to the point where you’re actually free, because I think a lot of people will get there.

And w- what I want to take out of that story specifically is that y- instead of quitting, right, and going like, "Wow, obviously this is not what I thought it was gonna be," and going back to the job, you just keep on refining a little bit more and getting a little bit closer to what it is that you wanted, right?

And that, I think that’s the key, is that it’s not a matter of, like, you- you’ll never get there. It’s just a matter of, like, it takes, uh, it’s one step at a time, right? That you learn something from what you just did, and you go, "Okay, well, now I have 40 bosses. What’s the next step," right? And I love that about the story.

It was so good for that, right?

Matt O’Neill: Well, I wanna, I wanna say something to the person listening to this that is thinking about [00:07:00] this but is really scared.

Tim Melanson: 嗯。

Matt O’Neill: Every step I was terrified. So when I had the 9:00 to 5:00 job selling the toner cartridges, I was making good money. To quit that and become a real estate agent, which I knew nothing about, and there was no paycheck coming in, was a terrifying step.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Matt O’Neill: And then once I had all those clients, and though, though I didn’t like it, that paid my bills, and I’ve got four kids and a wife and a mortgage and all the other things. And I’m like, "If I stop serving these clients, that income goes away, and yeah, I’m taking a bet that I could hire people to do it, but I don’t know if that’s gonna work."

So there’s risk behind every one of th- these decisions. You know, just deciding to start a property management company, there was huge risk with that. I was paying somebody’s salary with no clients and no income. So there was, there was an, it was an investment into an idea that I thought could work but might not.

So the person that’s [00:08:00] listening to this that has this idea in their heart, my opinion is God wouldn’t give you a vision that you couldn’t accomplish. So the idea is there, but what’s standing in the way is massive fear that you could lose what you have and it might not work

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yep, uh, yeah, that. And I, I mean, ’cause when I was… I, I think my experience was that I got into the tech industry, actually I was a programmer, and it was right when the bubble was bursting. And so that safe job was not there ever, ever. I, I mean, I started working, and within a few months they started laying people off.

So I think for me, I was in that… I, I, I never felt like, oh… It was always like, "Oh, okay, I got a paycheck for another two weeks. I’m, I’m okay for now," right? So there was some fear where I currently was, right? So the fear of the next step of, like, breaking out on my own wasn’t that much different. I- it was just [00:09:00] now instead of me sitting there and going like, "I can’t do anything about it."

Like, I mean, if that, if I get laid off, I, I, I can’t… There’s nothing I can do. I can’t work harder and try to keep that job, right? So when I started my own business though, I could work harder. I could, you know, sort of like pivot and like, "Okay, well maybe I can do this. May-" Like, there was lots of other ideas that I could have that could change my outcome over the next two weeks versus sitting in that cubicle and going like, "Hope they don’t lay me off," right?

Matt O’Neill: You, you bring up a point that most people in a nine-to-five never consider. They think… Because I, I’ve, I, I hire people who have nine-to- fives all the time to become real estate agents and, and be independent business owners as a real estate agent, which you are. You, you basically are running your own business when you’re an agent.

And they’re always like, "Yeah, but I got a paycheck every two weeks." And I, and, and I say the same thing that you just brought up. It doesn’t matter how safe you think it is, someone else could [00:10:00] fire you at any moment. And if they do, yes, you can go get a new job, but that safety that you think you have is this illusion.

Once you create your own thing, no one can take it from you. It’s completely up to you, and if you bet on yourself and you know that you’re willing to put in the work, then, then you have more freedom than the person that thinks they have this security with this nine-to-five. Like, I think there’s more security being a business owner than there is working for somebody

Tim Melanson: I, I agree with that for sure. Although it’s probably harder to see until you’re there, right?

Matt O’Neill: Or until you get fired, it, you know, or whatever. Your business implodes and you didn’t see it coming, or your boss decides that he’s got an issue with you and you didn’t know that that was happening, and

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Matt O’Neill: taken from you, and you’re like, "Oh, that, this was a false sense of s- of security."

I was just on a podcast last week with somebody that was a C-level member of some international [00:11:00] corporation. The corporation merged with another corporation, and then they downsized the C-suite. And he’s like, "Man, I, I put in 20 years." And, you know, you would think you work your way up that corporate ladder and you’re at this big level, and the corporation’s doing great under your leadership, that you’re safe.

Uh, but it, you know, cor- corporations can merge, and then they can downsize people. Like, it’s, it’s just out of… It was out of his control

Tim Melanson: Wow. Well, now also with taking those risks, sometimes things don’t go as planned, and I do like to talk about the bad notes because that is another fear. People are like, "Well, what if I make a mistake," right? Uh, and, and those mistakes will happen, and I’m wondering, can you share with me something that didn’t go as planned and how you recovered from that?

Matt O’Neill: Absolutely. Yeah, so I s- uh, I started a, a home flipping business three years ago and I thought, "Oh, this’ll [00:12:00] be, this’ll be fun. This’ll be something new. Uh, I’ll have the agents that are out there f- looking at properties, and if they see one that they think would be a good property that, that we could purchase and then put some, you know, some, uh, money into and then turn around and sell it, that I’d split the profits with them."

And so we ended up with 26 in the first year, and it was, it was going what we thought really well, and I… But to get the loans for all these properties, I used hard money, and we had 4 million in, in loans out. And something that I couldn’t see coming, the government decided to double interest rates in 30 days, and we’re sitting on 13 mid-construction properties, and all of a sudden they’re worth way less than we purchased them for after we’re putting 50, 60, 100K into each of them.

And my wife is sitting there [00:13:00] with me as we’re looking at this impossible situation. We’re like, "Man, we don’t have $4 million to pay these loans off, and all these properties, I can’t just put on the market and sell. They’re all, like, studs and construction sites." And, and even when we’re finishing them, we’re, we’re having to bring 60,000 in cash or 100,000 in cash to the table just to get out of it.

And she’s like, "Man, they might take our house." And I said… I’m like, "That, this was a, this was a riskier situation than I expected." the, the, and this was, uh… It was a really tough situation for us to be in. Um, at that moment, I thought, "Man, I didn’t, I didn’t think I was betting it all." It just seemed like a good business venture, that I know real estate, I know these, I know what houses are worth.

What I couldn’t see was what I couldn’t see. I couldn’t see that the government would double interest rates and then values would plummet in 30 days. Like, I… That was, that [00:14:00] was what would seem like a black swan event that you couldn’t see coming. Um, ultimately, we ended up taking our lumps, and one at a time I sold each of the properties for losses, and we got out.

And it was July, I think. It took me, like, eight months to finish them and then just, and, and just get out of it. And then, and then that was great. We got the $4 million paid off. We lost a bunch of money. Um, but I didn’t lose it all. The 4 million in, in hard money would’ve, would’ve taken us out, but there was enough as we sold them that we got it back that we could pay the, the, the loans off and get out of that tough situation.

What I learned from that was, um, don’t risk your house.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. It’s a good lesson.

Matt O’Neill: It was a great lesson, and I, and I promised my wife I’d never do that to us again. I just read this awesome book on finances by Morgan Housel, um, called The [00:15:00] Psychology of Money, and he had a line in there that I circled and circled and then wrote down and then thought about a whole lot because of the experience I had.

And he said, "Don’t risk money you do need chasing after returns you don’t need."

Tim Melanson: Wow

Matt O’Neill: And he said, and it was exactly what I did. I, I needed money to keep my house and have a place for my kids to live, but I didn’t need the extra returns from this home flipping company. So could we have flipped maybe two or three homes at a time instead of 13 at a time?

Absolutely. I just didn’t… And this is what he said. He, um, he said, "During the course of the United States’ GDP, it’s always up and to the right," and he had, like, 200 years of up and to the right. And then he said, "During this 200 years of up and to the right, we’ve had five major world wars, four presidents have been assassinated, the market has dropped by 10% or more 100 times.

The market has dropped by 33% or [00:16:00] more, like, 30 times." He said, "So whatever bet you’re about to make with leverage and debt, can you, can you hold this thing if everything drops by 30% in value?" And he said, "If you can’t, then you shouldn’t make that bet." And that’s exactly what happened to us, is I’m holding a bag of $4 million and everything I thought w- had value had dropped by 30%.

It was just one of those black swan moments for real estate that you can’t… And this is, it’s his whole point. You can’t see coming the next president assassination or major war that, that’s gonna happen, that’s gonna disrupt everything, or COVID, the pandemic that can come and change the world. So, um, that would be the lesson there, is that if you’re gonna make a bet, make sure you can withstand a 30% drop.

Tim Melanson: Wow. That’s… I can’t even add to that. That’s incredibly good, good sense, right? And, uh, and I think that that ends up being something that does happen to people who are, well, I mean, [00:17:00] a lot of us entrepreneurs are, I, I don’t know, wanna say overconfident, but maybe overconfident is the right word, right? We, we, we have this very, very positive outlook of what could happen, which is why we’re in business in the first place, right?

We, we, we didn’t let the fear stop us. And so oftentimes we can be presented with these opportunities that we’re seeing and we’re going like, "Wow, I can’t lose," right? But the thing is is that, like you just said, there are circumstances around us that do happen. Like, okay, fine, we do have the control to pivot and to move and all that stuff, but, but also there are some things that are gonna happen throughout the term of your business that you can’t see happening, and there has to be some sort of- Mitigation of that, right?

And I, I think that’s really, really good sense. If it’s 30%, that’s a really good number. It’s clear, right? If we can just sort of keep that in mind, can I lose 30% and still be okay? I don’t want [00:18:00] to, but that, that is a good place to start, and I like that. Thanks for that. That’s a really good one

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, in 2008 and 2009 I was in real estate, and, um, I- a lot of people took their life during that time because they… I mean, this is just, they weren’t able to… They were over-leveraged.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Matt O’Neill: And, um, and I saw people just filing for bankruptcy. I saw people losing their house. I saw people doing short sales. It was a very…

It was just really common. And people that were well over-leveraged were, were in big trouble. And then, and if you tie your worth to your net worth, it’s gonna be a bad situation. But we do need this money to survive, and sometimes we think, "Oh, I’m not gonna make it." Um, but I, I thought at that time, I’m like, "Okay, I’m not gonna over-leverage," and then I still did it.

And it’s exactly what you said, man. We… To be, to start your own business, you have to have a level of boldness to get u- through the [00:19:00] fear, and you have to have a level of confidence and optimism it’s gonna work. So, and this is what Sean Housel, or, I’m sorry, Morgan Housel talks about in his book too. He says, "The thing that will get you in trouble is always over-leveraging and over-optimism."

Tim Melanson: Um, yeah

Matt O’Neill: you have to have a le- he said getting rich requires boldness and optimism. He said staying wealthy requires some cynicism and skepticism

Tim Melanson: Oh, man. So good. So good. And I can, I can map all my mistakes to that, all of them, every single one of them. The big ones can all be mapped to me just being overconfident and going, "Yeah, yeah, I’ll be fine."

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, so, so I, I wanna, I wanna finish this whole thought and put a bow on it. Um, the… So he’s like, "All right, you still have to take risk. You have to, because that’s what got you here." But he, he said, he said, "I want you to think of your money as a barbell, and one part of the barbell is the money [00:20:00] you need to survive.

So this is the money for your home, the money for your groceries, the money that takes care of your family. That you can never touch." And so whatever that amount is, maybe it’s six months worth of savings, or, um, maybe it’s paying off the house, which is what s- when we got, when we got out of the big mess and we paid all the loans off, the next thing we did is we said, "We’ll pay this house off."

And that was, like, our intense focus so that if the house is paid off, they could never take the place that we live, and that… And, and we were able to do that in a couple of years and, um… But then what’s crazy, man, it came, it crept back in again. Uh, a huge deal showed up. I’m like, "Oh, this is a winner." And I’m like, "We’ll just mortgage the house and get…"

And my wife is like, "No. You said, you said it’s a barbell. This is the money that makes us safe. The house we’ve paid off, so you can’t touch that." And so once you have your one piece that keeps you safe, whatever that amount is, you don’t touch it, [00:21:00] and then you risk the stuff that’s above that. Um, so that’s, so as long as I can remember that, I’m saying it out loud here on this podcast so that I stick with it.

Tim Melanson: And having a sane spouse is a good thing too, right?

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, she, and she, she is overly cautious, which totally balances out my boldness

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, my spouse is the same thing. She’s very, very cautious, and exactly what you just said, "You said that we needed this part about…" And I, I’m, I’m like, "Oh, you’re right, I did say that. Okay, fine."

Matt O’Neill: And, and you respect her, and I respect my wife. And I’m like, "Man," I’m like, "We are a really good team." I’m like, "I…" So the reason I was five minutes late jumping on is that I was looking at a triplex that hit the market this morning, and the l- the fourth quadrant of the cashflow quadrants is I, which is investor, where I don’t own a business, I own investments.

And I, I went and looked at this triplex. It just looked like a great deal, and my wife [00:22:00] is like, "Well, where is the cash from the triplex gonna come from?" And she’s all stressed about that. And I said, "Well, I own this other piece of real estate in cash, and it has a value of 400,000, so I’ll take a small note out on that, and that’ll be the down payment, and this property will cashflow."

And she’s like, "Man, I’m super… I don’t know." And I said, "Well, in some cases, your skepticism is gonna be something we shouldn’t do, and in this case, my boldness is, is telling us that this is something that’s gonna help our family in the long run." So, so both can balance each other out

Tim Melanson: Agreed. Yeah, that’s awesome. So l- let’s talk about, I mean, you mentioned earlier the sales, and I, hey, I agree. I think sales should be taught, like, at length in schools, uh, you know, as early as you can. Because really, even if you do decide to be an employee your whole life, you’re still gonna have to sell your ideas.

And, uh, but now, w- when people become self-employed or they start their own business, y- you, I, I mean, it’s even more important [00:23:00] now, and I don’t think that that’s something that people put enough emphasis on. I think that they think, oh, I’m a great whatever it is, web designer or hairdresser, whatever it happens to be.

I’ll be fine. But you learn real quick that no, no, you won’t be fine unless you get out there and do something about it. And so I’m wondering, how do you get the fans? How do you get people in the door to be, uh, you know, to like you, I, I guess and, and do business with you?

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, sales is the lifeblood of every business. And, uh, I’ve got, I’ve got friends who buy underperforming businesses and turn them around, and the biggest lever is sales and sales systems. Um, so it… And I’ve also heard the, uh, y- CEOs really only have a couple of roles, maybe three roles, and it’s building a team, and it’s being the chief sales officer, and the chief marketing mind.

Uh, and that doesn’t, you know, people are like, "Man, that doesn’t seem right. A CEO shouldn’t really [00:24:00] have to be involved in marketing and sales." Well, if you watch companies that were absolutely thriving, that then stopped thriving a- after a CEO successor takes over, a lot of times they hire the operational guy,

Tim Melanson: Oh, yeah

Matt O’Neill: the COO, the one that, that understands how to make the widgets or make the system run right or, you know, do all the operating.

And then great, the operations are efficient, but they start losing customers and the company gets into trouble,

Tim Melanson: Hmm.

Matt O’Neill: and then they, they have to bring back in that creative sales forward-thinking person. So if you’re thinking about owning your own business, you have to be relentlessly focused on improving your ability in sales and marketing.

It is all about customer acquisition. You can’t be more efficient with customers that you don’t have. You can’t have better operations when there’s nothing to operate on because you didn’t make enough sales. So that’s my obsession, is how can we get [00:25:00] more clients? How can we get more ideal clients? Where do they live?

How can we find them, and how can we market to them in an effective way? If it’s an obsession, then you study everything you can study, you read every book that you can read, and then you’re thinking about it in the shower, and, like, new ideas come to you. I… Like, I’m always testing and trying. Um, I love talking with other people to see what they’re testing and trying.

Um, so I feel like you kinda have to have a test budget where you’re making small bets all the time. Like, um, I started a YouTube channel. It was a bet. You know, I didn’t know if, if, uh, having a YouTube channel was gonna be successful in real estate or not. There were some people who were doing it to a high level of success.

The cost was pretty high. It was like 50 grand for the year to do this. I, I took a risk on it, and then it paid off, and then all of a sudden we’re the number one YouTube channel, and people from all over the country are watching these videos for long periods of time, having [00:26:00] a lot of trust in me, and then, uh, coming to work with our team.

Other things I try out and I take a bet on, they don’t work, so then we cut them. I usually want to give something that we’re testing six months to 12 months. So, um, that’s the other piece of it. If you’re gonna try something out, you have to have enough patience to see it through.

Tim Melanson: I agree. Now, when we talk about, you know, m- building a band, right? I mean, finding people in your business to work for you, whether it be partners or whether it be subcontractors or employees, is there sort of a process that you go through to make sure you’re finding the right people?

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, man. It’s the most important thing. Uh, our real estate company was named the number one place to work out of 470,000 companies in the state of South Carolina.

Tim Melanson: Congratulations

Matt O’Neill: thank you, man. It’s like the one thing that I’m, like, the most excited about is that people like to work at the place that we’ve created.

But they like to work together. Like, uh, if you look at what do people [00:27:00] want in their workplace, the most important things are not compensation, but that’s one of them. So you have to, you have to pay… In my opinion, I wanna pay better than average. I don’t wanna say, "Okay, this is what, this is what everybody’s paying.

I wanna pay above that." I don’t wanna pay the most premium because then I won’t be able to afford other things. It’s like an NFL salary cap. You only have so much money. Um, but, but I’m gonna invest a little bit more in my people than some other areas, um, because the number one expense is also turnover.

But then you can’t have any turds. No turds can work for you. So just a-holes, not okay. Backstabbers, step on other people to get ahead type people, high performers with prima donna attitudes, it doesn’t go well no matter what the job is. Um, so I, I look for first when I’m hiring somebody, and this could be a partner.

I only have one partner. [00:28:00] Um, so a partnership is like a marriage. Like, you gotta be really sure because a divorce is super ugly and, and difficult. Um, but if… So if it’s a partner, man, you better know this person really well and say, "Man, can I spend my life with this person?"

Tim Melanson: Hmm.

Matt O’Neill: Um, but if it’s a vendor even, they’re gonna, they’re…

The way that they behave is gonna be a reflection of you. And definitely if it’s somebody that’s gonna work for you, um, I start with core values. So in the book Good to Great, he talks about you should set five core values for your company and no more, and this is, these five words should mean exactly who you’re looking for.

You should hire people that match those, and you should fire them if they don’t match them. So I just took that to heart, and that’s what we do. Our, our first core value is that we work with integrity. That’s doing the right thing when nobody’s looking. That’s our, so that’s our one-liner definition about what that means.

So then people that we see doing the wrong thing, we’re like, [00:29:00] "Man, you’re not a fit here." like, "Hey, you s- you stole this client from somebody. That’s, that’s a, that’s a lack of integrity. It’s just not a fit with who we are." And because I take the people that do the wrong thing out, all the ones that do the right thing wanna stay because they’re like, "I don’t like working with people who do the wrong thing.

Like, I wanna be able to just trust who I work with." Our second core value is kindness, which is we’re kind to people even when they’re mad. And you work with kind people that do the right thing. Kind people that do the right thing wanna work there too. You attract who you, who… You know, like, so the whole company now has an energy field, and people that are like that are like, "Man, I’m looking for a place that’s like this."

And they come in, and now you have to protect it. As soon as someone’s unkind, and we’ve had a lot of them, um, man, they can’t stay. And e- sometimes they are super big producers, and they’re like, like we, we had a, we had a [00:30:00] girl that was running the entire operations system of, of the property management company.

She was like the go-to piece, and yet four people quit under her leadership in eight months. And I’m like, "This isn’t right." And she, she was putting on a front to us like she was doing everything right and it was always these people’s fault. But the evidence showed that it was the opposite. So we had to do the tough thing and let go of the leader, and then that means that leadership fell on me and my partner because we didn’t have a leader, and then we had to go hire and train and, like…

It, it can be difficult to make the right decision about a people problem. But ultimately, you’ll always be further ahead if you’re putting your culture before your own comfort

Tim Melanson: I agree 100%. And, uh, I mean, that’s something that’s very difficult, I imagine, for any business owner to look at somebody who’s producing extremely well. And I mean, that, that’s just, uh, you know, a lot of human nature is [00:31:00] just, uh, big head, right? You know, you’re, you’re doing really well. You’re performing really well.

You tend to, you know, some certain people will tend to start treating other people poorly because of that’s, that’s what’s going on. And from a business owner’s perspective, you’re looking at the numbers and going, "Wow, this is going really, really well." But what you’re not seeing, as you mentioned, is that everybody else, and it’s, it’s just a toxic person in that, in that group.

And unless you only need that one person, then everybody else is gonna, is gonna be tainted, and you’re, you’re better off to get rid of the person that is performing in those situations, and that could be a, a tough thing to do, right?

Matt O’Neill: It, it is. And toxic is a good word for it

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Matt O’Neill: It, and sometimes, sometimes people are driven to perform because of emotional things going on inside where they don’t, where they don’t like themselves a whole lot, and so they’re trying to perform at a high level to prove that they’re worthwhile. [00:32:00] Well, if they don’t like themselves, they will project that own self-hate onto other people, and it’ll show up as coldness and a toxic work environment.

And it, you know it, I, I’m a happiness coach. I help people with these, uh, emotions and, um, but man, they’ve gotta want to as well.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Matt O’Neill: So I, I’ve tried… You know, my first step, because I, I also value kindness, is to, is to offer some coaching and some support. Um, but we can’t, we can’t offer coaching and support forever when it’s harming other people

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and I mean, that kind of just goes to the next step, which is that person will never really look for help until there’s a problem. And if they keep on getting rewarded by, you know, we keep getting rid of the, the good people that are doing that are n- you know, underperforming, whatever it happens to be, and leaving that person in those positions, well, then they’re never gonna know that it’s a problem.

But if they keep on getting let go, [00:33:00] well, then eventually they’ll get to the point, "Well, maybe it’s me," and maybe they will go and seek that help. So in a way, you’re doing them a service by, by actually letting them go, you know, in a kind way so that they can recognize the problem and maybe go and figure out what’s driving them to act the way that they’re drive- that they’re acting, right?

Matt O’Neill: Uh, yeah. I, I agree, man. Sometimes, sometimes it is the wake-up call that they need. I can only hope that for the people that we’ve let go, that if, uh, that we’ve had those conversations with. Like, "Hey, we, we like you as a human being. Um, we think you can grow. Hopefully this is a, a opportunity for you to, to grow in these ways."

But I, y- you know, you don’t know if they will. It’s, it’s up to them

Tim Melanson: Yeah. So let’s move to your, to your solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your business right now

Matt O’Neill: Man, the most exciting thing in my business is working less

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Matt O’Neill: had a, I had a mantra last [00:34:00] year, which is, uh, which is do less. Because we’ve got four kids. My oldest is 12, and she’s already, like, so… She spends so much time in her cheerleading and with her friends. Uh, I’ve heard the statistic that you spend 80% of all the time you’ll ever spend with a child up until the age of 12, and that once they hit the age of 12, you only have 20% of the time you’ll ever spend with them for the rest of their life. And I’m like, man, that’s pretty, that’s pretty tough because I got one that’s 12. My 80% is already gone. And then I’ve got another that’s 10, so I’ve got two years left of that 80%, and, uh, another one that’s eight, and then another one that’s four. And I was on the board for Make-A-Wish South Carolina, and I’m very…

I’m a big fan of that charity. And it didn’t seem like a lot. It was, uh, you know, a meeting once a [00:35:00] quarter and fundraising and things like that. But there’s… E- even though I’m passionate about helping the kids and I’m passionate about the organization, and it didn’t seem like much time, it was psychic energy that was going into it.

And then I had this podcast, and my podcast was helping people be happier, and it had nothing to do with business and success. I just was… I’m just passionate about helping people with mental health. And that didn’t seem like much time. Just, you know, it’s just an hour episode every week, but y- you know, finding great guests and preparing great questions and recording the episode and then promoting the episode and all the things that go into it.

So these were two big things that I really enjoyed, that I was passionate about, and I shut both of them down last year. And then, um, and then I let go of my office at work, and now I’m working… And, and we built this hide-a-bed in our guest bedroom, you know, [00:36:00] that is… So now I, I get to work out here. And I did all of this intentionally so that when I get done with work, I’m just here with my kids.

And, um, and that when I’m done with work, there’s not these other little obligations that are also pulling at my attention so that I can spend these last few years before the age of 12 soaking it in. And, uh, and last night… So we did, we did something else too, and this is a pretty cool tip. We decided, uh, like maybe eight months ago, we would do no screens Monday through Wednesday And that includes me.

Um, and screens, that’s my phone, right? So they’re like, "If I can’t be on my iPad and I can’t be watching TV, you can’t be checking an email on your phone." So I deleted the email app off my phone. I deleted all the social media apps off my phone so my phone would become less interesting. I could still, of course, log into my computer and check my email or log into my [00:37:00] computer and, and check the social media things.

Um, but so yesterday was Monday, and it’s a no screen day, and I’m tired as heck. You know, it’s the end of the day, and Mondays are big days for me. And my son starts crying because my wife is taking my daughter to cheerleading and sh- and he’s like, "Oh man, I wanna be with mommy." I’m like, "All right, dude, what do you wanna do?"

And he’s like, "I don’t… I just wanna be with mommy." And I said, "What if we took a ride to the big park?" like, "All right, I could be kinda into that." And, uh, I gra- and then I went to my 10-year-old and I’m like, "Hey, I’m thinking of taking Brady to this park. Do you wanna go?" She’s like, "Yeah, I could be kinda into that."

And so we get to this big park and played tag around this park for like two hours. It was a beautiful night. We’re running all through the park. [00:38:00] We get home. My daughter’s like, "Hey, do you wanna, do you wanna play a game of horse in the driveway?" And I’m like, "Sh, why not?" So I’m shooting hoops with my daughter, and this is one of my, my goals is to, is to play with my kids.

So the no screen thing Monday through Wednesday, it’s, it is more work, it is more effort, but man, I’ve got memories of chasing my kids around that park and playing horse with my daughter that I wouldn’t have had if w- they were allowed to watch TV or, or sit on an iPad and I was allowed to look at my phone

Tim Melanson: Hmm. Wow. Brilliant. That’s amazing. So, ah, wow, so much there. So now you obviously help people to get out of that nine to five. So how can people find out more about, you know, being able to create those memories like you do?

Matt O’Neill: Well, I do, I, I do do happiness coaching, and, and if anybody’s interested in kind of my philosophies on that, I wrote a book that talks about how to get out of the eight primary negative [00:39:00] emotions that keep us from happiness, and then how to choose positive emotions. There’s two parts to the book, and the best place to find it is on Amazon.

It’s called The Good Mood Revolution. Um, and that’s a really good place to, to start to plug into the, to the way that I think

Tim Melanson: Awesome. One more question. Let’s get into music a little bit here. So tell me, who’s your favorite rock star or band?

Matt O’Neill: Man, I’ve had a lot of them over the years. When, when I was in high school I was, I was obsessed with The Beatles, and, um, and it… I think to me it’s the greatest band of all time. I just heard that what made The Beatles so extraordinary was Paul was classically trained in music, so he had all the musical training to, to keep the scales right and, and follow the patterns that good music is, and John had no training.

And so John was doing all these [00:40:00] out of the box things, and then Paul was, like, putting some structure behind John’s wild ideas, and which is what made them such an incredible music group. So, um, that’s… I, I’m just gonna stick with them

Tim Melanson: Yeah, Beatles my favorite too. I, that, I say that same story many times. It’s actually a- amazing what they were able to do because of that. And you know what? Business follows that quite a bit too, right? I mean, if you’re thinking, uh, within a box, well then you’re not gonna come up with these crazy ideas that nobody has thought of before, right?

Matt O’Neill: But if you’re all out of the box and you’re super crazy and there’s nobody keeping some structure, it can just sound messy and, and not, a- and not actually be great. So you need both pieces.

Tim Melanson: Absolutely. Right on. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Matt, for rocking out with me today. This has been an, an awesome episode

Matt O’Neill: Tim, I really appreciate it

Tim Melanson: Awesome. And to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information, and we’ll see you next time on the Work At Home Rockstar

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work At Home Rockstar podcast. I’m excited for today’s episode. We’re talking to the CEO of 10X Travel, and what he does is he teaches people to utilize credit card rewards to save money on travel. Very interested in hearing more about that. But first, hey, Travis Cormier, are you ready to rock?

Travis Cormier: Let’s rock

Tim Melanson: Awesome. So we always start off here on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by

Travis Cormier: Yeah, uh, when I joined the company, I was the second full-time employee, and we were really just like many small companies trying to figure out moving from being like a solopreneur to operating as an actual company, uh, and doing it while we were fortunately going through a lot of growth. Uh, we managed to make the Inc.

5000 list of fastest growing private companies in the US, and [00:01:00] like all of these are great things, but it can cause, uh, a bit of like chaos and turmoil ’cause so much is changing, um, at the same time. But what really made me so proud throughout that was not only did we make the list of fastest growing private companies, but we also made Inc.’s list of best places to work in the US.

Uh, yeah, so like we managed to not just scale the business, but also just make it a good place to, to work. Um, you know, we, we, we did that by looking at like, what do we do? What do we value? What do we try to deliver for our audience, and how can we also deliver that for people within our company? Um, you know, one of our core values is [00:02:00] to help connect dreams with reality.

We said, "Okay, how can we connect the dreams with reality for our employees?" Beyond just like a paycheck, right? Like beyond what you just expect people

to do. Um, so one of the things that we instituted is a, a program that I love called 1K Your Way. It’s $1,000 every year to just pursue an interest. The only way it gets rejected is if it’s related to work, you know.

If you’re like, "I wanna use it to go to this conference." No, no, no. You can go to the conference, but use it for something else. Um, we’ve had people take scuba diving lessons. We’ve had employees… Actually, last year a n- one of our employees in the Philippines bought a motorcycle ’cause he always just wanted to learn how to ride a motorcycle, so he used it to, to buy a small motorcycle and then do a tour, uh, around one of the islands.

So just like really [00:03:00] cool to get to, uh, do that for our people, and also it just helps us connect more, especially over such a, such a big distance. You know, I think in the world of remote work, some of that personal touch and personal relationships can be hard to sustain sometimes.

And so when you can bring an element of Personal relations that aren’t just work-related and encourage it just helps, like, build, build a more fun, fun place to work.

You know your peop- you know everybody more, you know what their interests are, and it just gives you something to talk about that’s not just the weather or something.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, that’s exactly it. Yeah, you get to know everybody’s interests through that program as well. Hey, can they learn guitar? Is anybody learning an instrument?

Travis Cormier: I, I actually plan to use mine this year. Um, I was a, a band nerd through, through [00:04:00] high school. I played French horn. But I always wanted to learn piano, so I’m actually planning to use mine this year to get a little keyboard and take, take some lessons

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome. Oh, and nowadays it’s so much easier with the, the, the keyboards that you can put your headphones on as well, and you can also learn right directly from YouTube or from various other online subscriptions. It’s… A- and now’s the time to learn an instrument.

Travis Cormier: Yeah, yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m really excited for it.

Um, I think, I think it will be fun. And actually we did have one employee, uh, buy a guitar and take guitar lessons, so

I, I won’t be the first

Tim Melanson: That’s brilliant. So now along with the good note, though, sometimes things don’t go as planned. You know, there are gonna be some mistakes being made along the journey, and I like to normalize those so people can see that you still, you can still live. You can still get through it. And I’m wondering, can you share with me something that we can learn from and maybe even how you recovered from it?

Travis Cormier: Yeah. Um, one of the biggest [00:05:00] unintentional mistakes that we made, right? I think this happens a lot in small business, is you run into things that when you started them was not a mistake, but it became an issue that you needed to, to solve later. Um, what happened to us was we… We’ve- we’ve really leaned into, like, building community and building a personal sense of connection with our, with our audience, which when we were small meant our founder…

Um, I’m not the founder, I’m the, the incoming… or I’m the new CEO. Um, but when we were, we were starting, our founder put his email everywhere, and he said, "Hey, you got questions? Just email me.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Travis Cormier: email me." And that’s a great way to build that personal relationship with people. But then as your audience in this [00:06:00] consu- in a consumer-facing business starts growing, and people are still emailing your, your, this one person, like, that burden can become so large.

And I was talking to him once, um, and he said, "I don’t know how to solve this, because I’m spending 20 to 30 hours a week responding to emails. It’s one of my favorite parts of, of my job. I love this connection with people." But this j- this isn’t scalable, right? And, and that’s, that’s the, the accidental mistake when you’re, when you’re small you might have a part of your business that’s n- doesn’t scale, but you don’t

Like, the time and world where that happens might just be a pipe dream then. But if it, if it, if it happens, it, it does. So how, how do you solve this really odd [00:07:00] conundrum of we’ve built a business based off of this sense of, uh, of connection with people, particularly with, with our, uh, with our CEO, and ma- maintain that sense of personal connection but make it scalable?

That was, like, where we, we, we got pretty, pretty stuck. Um, but what we, what we … How we approached it that ended up working for us was realizing that personal access and personalization aren’t the same thing,

that what he was providing was personal access and personalization. But people are reaching out because they trust the brand and the business, um, and he just happens to be the point of contact.

So h- so we just need to solve that personalization part, um, to [00:08:00] deliver that high-touch intimate experience that people come to expect from our brand. Um, so the way that, that we did this was, you know, we built out a, a small team of people to handle these questions that, that come in. Uh, but we actually empowered them with tools like Loom.

Um, if you’re not familiar with Loom, it’s kind of like a screen recording. You can record yourself. Um, and that’s how we, we answer a lot of them. Not all of them, but a lot of them we record a Loom and send it to them. So now instead of just getting a wall of text, you get someone talking to you over email. So it keeps that sense of personalization and connection with your audience in a scalable way, um, that’s not tied just to that, to that personal aspect

Tim Melanson: That’s, that’s a great idea. Yeah, and, uh, it, it would get so overwhelming to have to answer all that. Hey, nowadays you have chat though ,

Travis Cormier: Yeah. [00:09:00]

Tim Melanson: that might save some time

Travis Cormier: In my, in my, you know, it was def- this was definitely pre- pre-AI days. Um, and it, and honestly, it’s one of the places we, we love AI, but it’s one of those places where, uh, like that’s not worth it to us. It’s not worth it to lose that, that sense of personal connection. Um, you know, if people are reaching out personally, they’re doing it for, for a reason.

If they wanted the, the, the answer from chat, like, I don’t know, they could probably just go to ChatGPT and

ask it directly

Tim Melanson: Yeah, it kind of defeats the purpose, eh? If you’re doing, if you’re supposed to, like, actually read the email and respond to it. But I mean, oh my goodness, that would be so much time, you know, especially as that grows. And for the CEO, I mean, that’s, you, you know, that’s, that’s a full-time job right there.

And what, how can they run the business now at this point, right?

Travis Cormier: Right, exactly. Like, uh, in a small business, as regardless of what seat you’re in, you’ve got multiple hats. The CEO does, anyone in the [00:10:00] organization does.

And when one of those hats is taking up 75, 80% of your time, how are you leaving enough bandwidth to, to handle everything else?

Tim Melanson: Yeah. But no, with the, uh, the whole Loom idea, that’s a great idea. And, and I mean, a, a, a benefit that you could do there is that there’s probably some times when you get the same question over and over again. So if you record that one Loom, as long as you don’t use their personal name in it then

Travis Cormier: Yeah

Tim Melanson: you might be able to be in the situation where you just send the same Loom to, you know, a bunch of people.

It’s still you talking and handling that question, right?

Travis Cormier: Exactly, yeah. And that’s exactly one of the things that we did. Um, you know, we- you don’t always get the same question, but the people that tend to be asking questions the most are your newer audience

members who are learning and trying to gather information. So a lot of times they are sending the same, the same questions. Uh, and yeah, by just not saying, "Hey Tim," [00:11:00] saying, "Hey, thanks for reaching out," like that simple removal means you can send the same one to, to multiple people and still

maintain that, that personal touch

Tim Melanson: Totally. So let’s talk a little bit about The Jam Room. Now, I see there’s a dog in the background there.

Travis Cormier: Uh-huh

Tim Melanson: So I assume that’s part of your home office, is it?

Travis Cormier: It is. Oh. She, she decided to, she decided to move. Yeah, I decided not to blur my background, you know? It’s, the theme is, is

Tim Melanson: Working from home.

Travis Cormier: from home rockstar,

so like w- let me not hide where I work from, from home,

Tim Melanson: Yep

Travis Cormier: and share it. Um, yeah, that’s, that’s, uh, one of my two at-home coworkers. The other is on the floor behind me.

You can kinda

Tim Melanson: Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, I see. I didn’t see that at first.

Travis Cormier: down there. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: That’s so awesome. And, like, I, I mean, the thing about it is that nowadays, I mean, since the last five or six [00:12:00] years, it’s been a lot more normal for people to work from home. But before that it was like people didn’t understand it at all, right? And now it’s, it seems to be a lot more normalized just because people had to go through it, you know, even in the corporate atmosphere.

And there was a lot of companies that just didn’t want to embrace it at all, right? Before they realized that, hey, maybe we can still get productive employees, you know, with, with a work-at-home model, right? And, you know, it sounds like you’ve got a remote model as well, so I’m wondering, like, how is that working for you?

Are- do you feel like you get just as much, if not more, from, from the productivity of your people

Travis Cormier: Uh, I, I think so. Um, I think people knowing that they have a little bit of that flexibility, um, means that they understand when, you know, i- if they need to run an errand during the day. Like, we’re all adults, right? Like, no one wants to have to ask for a hall pass to go out and ru- and run an errand.

It’s just [00:13:00] about understanding that, like, your, your job is to get work done.

So as l- as long as people are are completing their, their deliverables, completing their work. Like, I tell everyone, "I don’t really care if it takes you two hours or 10 hours." I mean, I, I do in a sense, but at the end of the day, you know, if it takes you two hours and your work is done for the day, be available, but I don’t expect you to be sitting there just waiting on something else to come in. Because on the flip side, there’s gonna be those weeks when there’s fires and, and extra work that has to get done where you’re gonna work a little bit more. So it’s a bit of give and take, and I think when people are working from home, it makes it a little bit more palatable than, "Oh, I’m at the office and I’m done, so now I just kinda have to sit here and wait and bide my time and not be personally productive."

[00:14:00] Whereas when working from home, like, you can be personally productive. I can go unload the dishwasher. Uh, I can go do a load of laundry if I need to. And it, at the end of the day, like, it- how is that any different from going to the break room and grabbing a cup of coffee and sitting around chatting with coworkers?

Like, and there’s, there’s definitely benefits to that. I don’t

wanna, wanna downplay that, but, um, like, it’s just about respecting people, people as adults. Um, and for, for us, w- we’ve not found productivity to be, to be an issue at all

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And I think that there are people that are more suited for an office, and then there are people that are more suited for working from home too. But I do find that a trend that I’ve, I’ve been noticing, not definitely in the, in the home business area, but even in corporate areas, is focusing a little bit more on [00:15:00] maybe productivity and deliverables rather than focusing on time sitting there, right?

And, and I think that’s an encouraging way to look at it, right? Because it really does reward the high performers. ‘Cause now, I mean, if you can get your work done, you know, in half the time, w- well, isn’t that great? Like, wh- why would you be penalized by having to sit there for the other half of the time and do nothing ’cause you’re already done your work, right?

Travis Cormier: Yeah, I mean, I, I think basing productivity on hours worked is just lazy management. It just says, "I don’t actually know how to manage deliverables and manage my team," but it’s the easiest thing to point to, to say, uh, "My team is working 100% of the time assigned." Like, cool, but how do you know that that’s actually accomplishing the, the goals and stuff?

It’s just lazy management, and it’s just an excuse for, for not [00:16:00] knowing how else to, to manage people

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And I think, I think for most businesses, productivity is gonna be the thing. The only ones that would count, you know, for how much time you’re there is maybe you’re working a storefront, and you actually have to be present for that specific time, ’cause customers are gonna come in. Um, you know, but that’s not, that’s different, and, and that’s not the same as most businesses.

Most businesses have these deliverables that they have to create, right? And i- it doesn’t matter how long it takes you to do it. You don’t have to be sitting there and waiting, right? So I, I like that. I think it’s encouraging, right?

Travis Cormier: Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, I, I, I agree. I mean, my former job, I used to be a chemist. I can’t bring chemicals home. I had to be there.

I

Tim Melanson: There you go

Travis Cormier: if, if they told me to bring chemicals home, I would, I would be a little weary of wherever, wherever I’m working. So you’re right, there, there certainly are some jobs and some careers where it’s necessary, but for the vast [00:17:00] majority of office jobs, uh I don’t, I don’t see it as

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, a- and even as a chemist too, like, uh, there’d probably be things you have to accomplish during the day, so even that doesn’t necessarily have to be, you know, clock in at whatever time, clock out at this time, you have to be there during that time. That would only really apply to a storefront thing or a customer support thing where you’re actually handling a shift.

Other than that, I mean, if you get your work done and you do it faster than everybody else, I, I thi- I just think it, it, it encourages you to bring on better talent, right? ‘Cause now the people that are encouraged to be faster and better, right?

Travis Cormier: Yeah. Yeah. And it also just gives you better access to talent, right? I mentioned we have some employees based in the Philippines. We couldn’t do that if we were an in-person company. Um, it– We don’t even have two employees that live in the same city. So, uh, like, when we go to [00:18:00] hire, we don’t have to limit ourselves.

You know, I’m in, I’m in Houston in Texas in the US. If we were in person, I would limit myself just to Houston, which not a– It’s a big enough city. We’ve got plenty of people here. But I can cast a nationwide or even international net to be sure that we’re, we’re getting, getting the right person. And I, I also think it helps with retention.

Like, people really enjoy the work from home, those high performers, especially if they’ve worked somewhere before that really drove them to, to burnout. Um, the, the work from home life just I think for a lot of people works better.

You know, it can be lonely at times

Tim Melanson: It can be. It can be. But, I mean, there is ways you can get around that. You could go work at a coffee shop or, uh, you know, or if your dog is right there,

Travis Cormier: Yeah.

Tim Melanson: that helps, right?

Travis Cormier: [00:19:00] Yeah. Or like, like I go to the gym at 4:30 every day, and it’s group classes, so I see the same people. I’ve got friendships. That’s my

Tim Melanson: coffee shop. Your, your, your, uh, yep, that’s your water cooler talk

Travis Cormier: Yeah, exactly. And those times when I’m like, "I don’t even wanna talk to people, I just wanna work around people," like you said, go to a coffee shop, go to a co-working place.

Um, but it gives me that flexibility to, to choose that rather than be forced into it

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I love that. Let’s, uh, you know, let’s get a little bit more into the band then and the people in your team that have success. I’m wondering, uh, you know, you- you’ve got a pretty large organization. You came on to the organization, so you, so you didn’t necessarily build it from scratch. Um, but you’re probably very focused on making sure you have the right talent and you also make sure you get rid of the wrong talent, right?

And do you have… What kinds of processes do you have to make sure that that stays true?[00:20:00]

Travis Cormier: Yeah. Uh, one of the, the big things that we do, um, that was… We, we work, we work with a business coach who helped us implement, um, our quarterly alignments, is really what we call them. You know, uh, yes, it is a bit of a review, but part of it is to be sure that we’re aligning with people on that, that personal level.

Um, so yes, we do review based off of your, your work deliverables. We also measure based off of the culture fit. Um, being a remote company, maintaining that company culture does come with some additional challenges. So we look at both. We look at work performance as well as cultural alignment to evaluate people.

And it all, for, for me, it all comes back to intentionally creating the space for that to happen. You know, we can often let [00:21:00] things start to slide, um, and if it’s not addressed, then It, it can start going too far. By doing it once a quarter, it just creates the opportu- opportunity to have those, those candid conversations with people.

Because sometimes it’s just we’re going through different phases of our, of our lives. You

know, your person who’s consistently an, uh, an A plus, a, a member of your A team, might dip down to the B team, and that doesn’t have to be a red flag. It should be a warning sign. But by have… creating the intentional time and space to talk about it means we can’t avoid it.

And a lot of times when you have those conversations, you just realize, oh, okay, you just have some stuff going on in your life. Okay, like, A, is there an opportunity for us to help you with that? B, like, even if not, it can just be about [00:22:00] getting aligned on it. You know, I experienced that myself. My mom got sick during the pandemic. Uh, she lived four hours away by herself. And so days when I wasn’t working, uh, because I was still a chemist for the first half of the pandemic, I left work, drove to my mom’s to go take care of her, stayed there, then came back, went to work, back and forth, which meant not a ton of time with my wife, not a ton of time with my dogs.

And that doesn’t mean that I’m a… Like, my, my work inherently suffered because I never really got time to decompress personally, and that doesn’t mean that I’m a bad employee or that there’s a systemic problem that, you know, needs to be addressed through performance management.

But if y- if you don’t talk about it and don’t converse about it, like, it can [00:23:00] be easy for a manager to look and say, "Your performance isn’t there, so now we’re gonna put you on a performance improvement plan."

And it can just help contextualize the lives that we’re going through. And as a remote company, creating those intentional moments, uh, for me is, is paramount to, to success because you don’t have those kind of organic water cooler type moments that you have in person. So it’s about creating that intentional space to talk with people and determine then, you know, uh, is this something temporary? Sometimes it’s not. Like, the, the truth is sometimes it’s not, and people’s performance just is not keeping up. Maybe their skills aren’t keeping up. Um, and it does need to be addressed through performance management, but it’s about having the space to determine what the right approach is rather than just kind of dismissing everything and really, like, recalibrating.[00:24:00]

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And this is one of those things that, um, when you’re thinking about starting a business, uh, uh, or when you’re thinking about what’s important in your business, a lot of people will focus more on the sales, you know, on the, the actual, the transfer of, of income and all that stuff, and these soft kinds o- kinds of things are things that kind of get pushed on the back burner, I imagine, right?

A, a lot, right? It’s just ’cause y- you’re like, "Oh, do I need to spend my time doing that right now?" But, you know, as you’ve probably already discovered, if you don’t spend that time, then it, it will, like, it- you’re just in a reactionary mode because things start to fall apart and you don’t know why. Whereas if you, like you say, have this intentional time set and you put a priority on it, you know, and there’s probably lots of other examples of things like this that you need to be intentional about, um, and spend your time on it even though it doesn’t directly relate to dollars in the bank account, right?

Travis Cormier: Right. Yeah. And [00:25:00] like it, it not only goes towards understanding your employees, but also like, like in what they’re going through, but for them to talk to you about what they’re experiencing too. Um, because if they’re feeling burnt out or they’re feeling overworked or they’ve got stuff, stuff going on, and you’re just dismissing it, not addressing it, like that’s when people start looking for

another

Tim Melanson: work, yeah

Travis Cormier: well.

And so then if they leave, well, would you rather have spent two hours once a quarter versus now they leave and it’s gonna take maybe at least two to four weeks to hire someone, a couple of weeks to get them, them trained up? And that’s even more time that’s taking away from your ability to do, to do other work.

Uh, so it, it can be hard to prioritize some of the soft work that needs to be done that [00:26:00] it’s not necessarily moving the revenue or the profitability directly, but it’s, it’s securing it more. You know? It’s, it’s helping to, to protect it, um- It’s a give and take sometimes when you’re scaling. Like, there are some stuff that you choose not to do, and you’re building up, uh, I call it, like, institutional debt.

You know, you’re building up s- up this backlog of work that you know needs to get done someday, and you’re choosing not to. And you’re, you have to accept that risk. Like, you have to accept that you can’t do all of it.

Um, someday the bill is gonna come due for that institutional debt. And, uh, like, uh, that’s okay.

Like, that’s, that’s okay. That’s the natural phases of business. You know, I mentioned we were on the Inc. 5000. Very few companies, like, go through growth and just stay like [00:27:00] this forever. Everyone would love that. I don’t know a business owner that wouldn’t love that. But the simple nature of business is it’ll probably eventually plateau, and you have to set up for the next stage of growth, and realizing that that’s when you’re gonna be able to repay some of that debt.

Um, but it’s choosing along the way which debt is okay to, to wait on and which ones you can’t. Um, and I think if you wanna build a good culture with places to work, uh, the, the work around people management is one that you can’t set aside

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, uh, I, I love this, you know, aspect because one of the things I’m trying to accomplish with even this podcast is to inspire more people to take better control of this stuff. And because I think that a lot of these very, very large m- monopolies have, have sort of [00:28:00] like created these work atmospheres that are not super good for most people.

And so I think that number one, you know, you can become self-employed and take control of that stuff and be a solopreneur and make a living that way. But also, you can create your own business as you guys are doing, and actually do it with people in mind and with culture in mind, and with, you know, a, a really clear focus on making it a good place for people to work to contrast against the many bad places for people to work, right?

And, you know, th- there’s gonna be people in all of those buckets, ’cause the bottom line is that we’ve gone through this many times on this podcast, is that not everybody is gonna be super well-suited for running a business, right? There are people that are far more comfortable with working for somebody else, and that is totally cool because there are also a lot of people [00:29:00] that wanna run a business and employ other people, right?

So they need people to work, right?

Travis Cormier: Yeah, exactly.

Tim Melanson: So we can all get a, get those dreams met, and we can create atmospheres that are really good for people to work in, and we can create this new economy that I think is being created right now

Travis Cormier: Yeah, definitely. Um, I mean, one, one of the things that I think doesn’t get talked about enough about running, running a business, owning your own business, um, like people talk about how exciting it is and how cool it is and how freeing it is, and all of those are true.

Like, all of those are true. But too often people don’t discuss the emotional burden that comes with it.

Um, uh, you know, when it’s your business and it’s not just, you know, if you’re a solopreneur, it’s your livelihood, and that’s a very different emotional toll than [00:30:00] working for a big company that’s generally probably gonna be pretty financially secure. Like, you’re typically not worried about your paycheck bouncing.

Um, like there’s this emotional side to it that I think many people don’t expect and aren’t prepared for.

Um, and it doesn’t have to be a bad thing, but it applies if you’re a solopreneur. Then if you grow and have employees, like their livelihood depends on you, and that’s a pretty heavy burden, I think, uh, to, to carry that- Isn’t talked about probably ’cause it’s not the fun side of bu- or it’s not the side that people who are selling courses

about starting your own business,

uh, want to be, to be honest about.

But it’s the truth is that, like, people are putting their, their trust in, [00:31:00] in you and your company to be able to deliver so they can maintain their livelihoods. And, uh, that can be a very different weight that people aren’t expecting. Um, and some of the hard decisions that, that can come with that. You know, you mentioned it- it’s easy to talk about keeping good people, but when it’s about truly people who aren’t performing and aren’t delivering and letting them go, like-

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Travis Cormier: Man, that’s, that’s tough.

Now, it’s worse for them. Like, I will always admit that it is worse for the person that, that’s being let go. But when you’re in that situation, like, you just became the villain in someone’s life story.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Travis Cormier: And that’s something you have to, you have to live with, and, you know, those aren’t the, [00:32:00] the fun, sexy stories on LinkedIn that, that help get likes.

Um, but it is the honest truth of the, the emotional burden that comes, whether it’s personally or the responsibility to other people

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And I will say though that, um, I don’t know if it’s completely impossible to avoid that situation, but, but there are ways that you can improve it. And yeah, I mean, you’ve mentioned a few of them. If you have really good onboarding and really good hiring processes and, like you said, those quarterly reviews, things that will actually, you know, kinda keep

‘Cause I mean, like what you said earlier, there’s a possibility that whatever’s going on, especially if they were a good hire, now they’re not, there’s probably something going on in their personal life. And if you don’t know what that is, then you might end up in a situation where you’re letting them go and you just don’t get it.

And it really is just something that they need a little bit of grace on to get through something, and then they’ll be back, right? Um, but yeah, they … I mean, that just goes right back to what your m- main point [00:33:00] is. If you don’t spend that time doing those things, then you’re gonna be a villain, villain pretty quickly, and nobody wants that, right?

Travis Cormier: No, no,

Tim Melanson: So it’s worth it to spend the time.

Travis Cormier: It is, even, even just for your own mental health.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Travis Cormier: Yeah

Tim Melanson: Right on. So let’s get into your soul a little bit. So tell me what’s exciting your business right now?

Travis Cormier: Yeah. Um, what I am really excited about, um, is we’re going through kind of a fundamental shift in, in our business, and it’s fun, it’s exciting, it’s scary. Um- Our current revenue model, uh, pretty heavily relies on affiliate marketing. Um, so full transparency, you know, you mentioned we teach people how to use credit card rewards.

We partner with the banks, and we get a commission if someone opens a credit card through us. We don’t hide that. We’re honest with people about it. Um, and what that means, though, is [00:34:00] that we are always subject to the whims of the credit card companies. Our revenue is not… It’s not ours. Um, uh, and what I mean by that is if the banks change policies, if they decide to just not do it anymore, it really impacts our business.

Um, we saw this during the pandemic when our revenue dropped 80, 90% over the course of a, a couple of weeks. Um, so we’re really working to diversify that. Um, we have, uh, a BHAG, if you’re familiar with that term. If not, it’s a big, hairy, audacious goal. It’s, like, what’s, what’s that big goal that you’re really working towards?

Um, so our, the one we’re working towards right now is called FTB. It’s free the business. Um, and it doesn’t mean we don’t want our affiliate revenue, but it, it’s the– We know that we have accomplished it whenever we can cover 100% of our operating [00:35:00] costs from non-affiliate revenue. Um, so because then we’re not subject to, to the banks.

If they change their policies, we don’t have to inherently react to the way that we operate. And this isn’t something we’re doing as a response to anything or from the banks. It’s about, like, we have a mission to, I mentioned before, to help connect dreams with reality, to educate our audience, to empower them to travel the world and save.

And so long as our revenue is dependent on factors that are outside of our control, that mission is at risk. And so we want to try to recapture as much of that control as, as we can so we can continue providing value for people, um, even if, even if the banks decide they don’t want to, to do affiliate marketing [00:36:00] anymore. Um, if they wanna keep doing it, like it’s, it’s, it’s great, but we want to at least protect it, so that way we can be there in the long run, serving our, our community and our audience. Um, I’m really excited about it. It means we’re really having to rethink the value we provide to people. You know, we’ve always…

Our value proposition has always been- You don’t have to pay us anything. Like, if you get value, just use our links and someone else will pay us. Uh, whi- which is a really cool value proposition, right? To, to tell your audience, "You don’t have to pay us anything to get value from, from our company." Um, but the truth is, is that that means that the value we provide is going to continuously be at risk.

So we want– I really wanna be sure that if our audience is providing us directly with, with their hard-earned dollars, that they’re truly getting good [00:37:00] value, um, getting more return than what they, they are paying us, so that way it can be just a win-win relationship where they can get more value than what they’re paying, and they know that we’re gonna be around here for the long haul, uh, with their best interests in mind

Tim Melanson: Right on. So how does the program work?

Travis Cormier: Yeah. Uh, so we typically tell people to start with our course. Um, they can go to 10xtravel.com to, to find it. Um, I know that it’s a lot to ask people to start with a course, but the reason why we do it is we feel that it’s important to be ethical and responsible, uh, educators in, in this space. You know, when we’re talking about credit cards, you and I were kinda chatting before, there’s definitely some risks to be aware of.

Like, you can easily go into debt. You can easily pay a lot of money. You can mess up your credit. And we don’t take those risks lightly, and that’s why [00:38:00] we ask people to just check us out, start with our, our course. It’s free. Our c- our introductory course will always be free, um, because it, it sets that foundation to provide you with at least a little bit of baseline information to get started and to make the decision about if this is right for you.

Uh, without that, I don’t know that I would feel super comfortable telling people to just go open up credit cards. It’s let’s be sure that you’re educated about what you’re doing first and making the, the right decision for you and, and your family

Tim Melanson: Yeah, that, I love that. That sounds so responsible too, because, I mean, we were talking a little bit before this, this call, and, and credit cards are so misunderstood and just so thrown out there. Like, people will just go and open up credit cards and open up store credit cards and just, just like nothing.

And okay, might be fine, right? But, but on the other hand, you know, there, there’s a lot of like, I don’t [00:39:00] even know what I wanna call it, fine print, I guess, like, on, on how they work, and you can get yourself into trouble really quickly. And then the other aspect of it too, which just kind of goes through our society, is that we tend to not talk about money, and especially problems with money, with people around us, including our families.

A- and, and so you’ll end up, you’ll end up, you know, just struggling silently with this thing that was just pushed upon you with no education at all. And, and now, you know, you’re kind of in trouble. So i- I mean, if nothing else, I mean, if you’re offering a course on that, that’s enough I would think for anybody to just go take the course to understand a little bit more of it.

You could… I, I, I mean, do you have to… Like, is this a sort of something you could do anonymously as well? Or, like, how does that work?

Travis Cormier: Uh, so the, the online, the, like, text-based version of our course, uh, they do have to register for our software platform.

Um, but if you do wanna do it, uh, do it more anonymously, we actually have our own podcast, [00:40:00] and the first six episodes of our podcast is the course in audio version.

Tim Melanson: Oh, well, that’s great. What’s the podcast? Tell me more.

Travis Cormier: Uh, it’s called Take Off!

A Points and Miles Podcast by 10x Travel. So a lotta people kept asking us for an audiobook version of the course for years, and that just … Something just didn’t feel right about an audiobook

version. Um, and finally one day we said, "What if we tried a podcast format?" So we did. And, um, now the podcast keeps going, but it let us set that foundation, "Hey, you don’t have to register.

You don’t have to, to read it. If you wanna listen, there you go."

Tim Melanson: So is this something… Now, okay, I mean, if you don’t have a credit card yet and you’re listening to this podcast, go learn about it ’cause it, it could get out of control really, really quickly. But I’m wondering, is this something that someone could benefit from if they already have credit cards and maybe they’re already in some trouble?

Travis Cormier: Yeah, definitely. Um, you know, if, if they’re already… I- if, if you [00:41:00] already have credit cards and you’re managing it fine, you’ll learn how to optimize them to get more value from the credit cards you have or maybe change your card portfolio a bit. But also, if you’re already in trouble a little bit, some of that underlying knowledge and information just about how they work can help you better understand what you’re, what you’re dealing with, um, to work on fixing things, um, and just preparing yourself.

Um, in fact, we have an episode as well in our podcast with our, uh, social media manager and our community manager who he had to go through fully repairing his credit, um, before he, he could get started. Um, he had unfortunately, like, just gotten in a rough patch of life and his credit, um, wasn’t in a great spot.

Um, but it’s a wonderful story of how he went from rebuilding his credit, understanding it, and [00:42:00] putting himself in a better position to, to manage it going forward, so that way he then could take advantage

of, of the credit cards

Tim Melanson: That’s amazing. Yeah, because, I, I mean, that’s the, the flip side of it is that these, the point systems and, you know, all the, the cashback things and all the credit cards, they, they offer all these really good programs in a way. I mean, a lot of it is just free money. And, and that’s what kind of catches people off guard is ’cause, uh, uh…

But, but I mean, the, the way I, I always thought about it is that, okay, nothing in this world is free. S- that doesn’t make any sense. So if they’re offering you this great, you know, travel pack where you’re gonna be able to go and take all these vacations and all that stuff, somebody’s paying for that somewhere, right?

And so I mean, if you’re, you know, uh, taking Travis’s courses and learning how to use it, and now all of a sudden you’ve got a situation where you’re benefiting from these programs, then that’s fantastic, but somebody isn’t, right? [00:43:00] And, and I think that the, the, the goal really now is to not be that somebody who isn’t, right?

And, and try to get a little bit more education on that. And if it was easy, if, I mean, if it, if it was something that, oh, you know, it’s just a little mistake, well then they wouldn’t be giving free vacations away to people. Like, for… Like, it clearly is a big problem that people are getting themselves into, otherwise they wouldn’t have that kind of money to give back to people, right?

Travis Cormier: Exactly. Yeah. Um, between that and, uh, you know, if, if you have a business, you- and you take credit card payments, you know you’re paying, m- m- here in the

US maybe 2% or 3%.

every time someone swipes it. They, they’re making money there too.

Um, so it’s like if they’re taking that away from your, from your business, do whatever you can to, to get some of the pie back for

Tim Melanson: Absolutely. Well, and, and that’s the part that I think probably people are like, "Oh, but that’s where they make their money." Yes, that’s one of the places [00:44:00] where they make their money, but interest is significantly more, right?

Travis Cormier: those in- those interest rates are a lot more than 2% to 3%.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, absolutely. Right on. Okay, so we’re running out of time here. I got one more question. This might be the hardest one. Who’s your favorite rock star or band?

Travis Cormier: Ooh. Uh, you know, here’s what I’ll say. Um I’m gonna twist it a little bit because I, I have way too many come to mind. The best live show that I’ve ever been to,

if this is a fair twist, uh, proud to say Lady Gaga,

Tim Melanson: Wow

Travis Cormier: on such an incredible performance. We saw her here in Houston, and had so many flames going that you could feel the heat every time that, that it came off.

Um, really just incredible. Um, I’ll probably [00:45:00] also give a shout-out to the Foo Fighters, who I saw at Austin City Limits, I think two, maybe three years ago. Um, they’ve been doing it a long time. They know how to work a crowd. They know how to put on a great show. And part of what made it, uh, extra special was they were performing at the same time as Shania Twain, and my wife really wanted to go to Shania.

And I said, "Shania has her Vegas residency, so we can go see her in Vegas. I don’t know when we’ll get to see the Foo Fighters again." Well, Shania finished 30 minutes before the Foo Fighters and came over and got up on stage and sang Best of You with the Foo Fighters, so, uh, yeah, great. Just great being out there at, like, 9:30 at night. At least getting to see both of them, um, was, was also really, really memorable

Tim Melanson: That is so awesome. Thank you [00:46:00] so much, Travis, for rocking out with me today. This has been a lot of fun.

Travis Cormier: Thanks, Tim. I really enjoyed it

Tim Melanson: Awesome. And to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information, and we’ll see you next time on the Work At Home Rockstar podcast

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work At Home Rockstar podcast. I love this next guest’s, uh, business name. This is really, really cool. He’s the president, founder, and CEO of LIWMI Logistics, and what that means is Life Is What We Make It. Love that. That’s so cool. And what he does is he, he inspires people to take control of their lives and build something meaningful.

Very excited to be rockin’ out today with Randy Vlasic. Hey, Randy, you ready to rock?

Randy Vlasic: Let’s go. Let’s rock, Tim. Thanks for having me on the show

Tim Melanson: Love it. So we always start off on a good note. So tell me a story of success so we can be inspired by.

Randy Vlasic: Oh, wow. Okay. Um, you know, when I was a kid, I, I wasn’t a great student. So just, just to give you a brief, um, uh, start of where, where I got started, I, I… When I was in school, I didn’t really do well because I didn’t love what I was doing and I didn’t apply it. So I, I, I didn’t really have that curiosity to go and learn it, right?

So as I got older, I kind of had to figure out my way and, um, and I did. So I, I started to get obsessed with trying to find, um, people [00:01:00] that were successful and try to, to copy some of their habits and learn from them so that I could do the same thing. So I went through retail and multi-level marketing, but I ended up into, in, in logistics eventually in my early 20s.

Uh, started out in sales, did really, really well, and eventually decided to start my own company. So I started my first company in 2014. Um, I, I, I, uh, was mid-20s at the time. I, I was doing sales for about four years, but I ended up building that company and, and selling it, um, two years later for, for seven figures, um, when I was 29. So it was, it was a wild ride, you know, up to that point and getting to there. It was just a, a whole, a whole, you know, river of different rapids and decisions that came about and, um, you know, I always choosed, always chose the challenging path and wanted to grow as an individual and it, it worked out. So that was probably the biggest success in my early in my, early on in my career

Tim Melanson: Wow, that’s amazing. I, uh, I went through the multi-level marketing industry as well, and, uh, you know what? You learn a lot through that, [00:02:00] don’t you?

Randy Vlasic: You know, it was probably one, I, I think one of the best experiences that I had because, you know, with the MLM model, like, it, it was about selling somebody a dream, right? And for me as a young kid who didn’t really have a college education, like, I was always looking for that. So when I found somebody who was making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year that told me I could do that, I was in.

You know, like, there it wasn’t any hesitation. I was jumping, um, both feet in at the same time, right? And so I got into it and the… I learned so much from so many of those people that were successful in the MLM model. It also forced me to become really good at recruiting, right? So getting to know people, finding out what makes them tick, trying to in- to, to sell them a dream and help them understand my vision of where I was going and how they fit into that.

And so I think I took a lot away from multi-level marketing in the business

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, me too. And I don’t think a lot of people necessarily think of that getting into it. I think first of all, they’re trying to make a, a buck real quick, which is, it isn’t. [00:03:00] I mean, it’s a, it’s a course really. It takes you a little bit of time to g- to get through it. And then, and then, um, you know, just, uh, the, the number of people that I know that didn’t necessarily make a bunch of money in multi-level marketing, although some of them did, and I made some money as well, but were able to just spin off and t- and start a business out of that, that actually did do well, it’s, it’s crazy.

I mean, you’d, you know, you, you don’t hear those stories very often. You hear about the people that failed, right? You know, and, and, and are complaining about it. Mm

Randy Vlasic: Yeah, no doubt. I mean, people made it work. There were people making hundreds of thousands of dollars. I saw, you know, my wife I met in, in that multi-level marketing company. I saw her make, you know, it was insurance, mortgages, and investments, and, um, hence why I got out in 2008. But I saw a lot of people, uh, uh, you know, earn a good living there.

I mean, I was 22 at the time, 23, and I was making, you know, $90,000 in that space. And, um, so at the time I thought I was doing really [00:04:00] good and it, you know

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, you did a lot better than most do it, that’s for sure. That’s, that’s awesome. Yeah, so

Randy Vlasic: though, um, when you mentioned the guys that spun off, I think almost everybody that was on my team is now running a different company and doing really good

Tim Melanson: Yeah. It, it’s one of those things where if you do, if you do take it seriously and you do learn the things that you’re gonna learn, uh, you can’t, uh, it’s very difficult to go back to a job at that point. You know, you don’t, you’re, you, you have, like, control of your life, or you at least learn that it’s possible, right?

Randy Vlasic: Yeah, that was like the first point in my life where I was like, you know, A equals B, right? If I put in the effort, I get the result. And so when there were days where I was like, "Man, I can’t pay my, I can’t pay my car payment. I need to go sell something," like I went and sold something, you know? But that’s the first time you’re like, "Man, this really works and I can do this."

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and that feels very similar to when you do start your own y- you know, your own self-employed business as well. I mean, it’s, I, I just remember sitting in that cubicle being an employee, and I mean, if money’s tight, what do you [00:05:00] do? Nothing. You just sit there and wait, I guess, for your next paycheck.

Whereas when you’re, when you’ve got your own thing, it’s just like to your point, it’s like, "Okay, well, I need some extra money. Well, if I go and hustle today, you know, maybe I can, you know, pull in an extra sale and…" Right? I mean, it, it,

Randy Vlasic: There’s always a

Tim Melanson: of that.

Randy Vlasic: Yeah, that’s correct. There’s always a way, it’s just, it’s just finding that way, right? And then going out and being able to execute on that. And sometimes it’s really weird, right? Sometimes that, that unique scenario that you’re in, um, you know, I know we’re gonna get more into this, but, um, when I started this company, LIWMI Logistics, which we’re a third-party, you know, transportation arrangement, it was in, uh, right after COVID happened.

Well, we had this big influx of inventory that came into the market in, uh, 2022, and then in 2023 the market dropped o- dropped off. There was so much inventory, there was no trucking movement. I’d just hired a brand new employees and I, I couldn’t make payroll, and I was like, "I gotta find out, find [00:06:00] another way to make some money."

Well, I had this forum that I was running with other freight broker owners I’d put together through Facebook Marketplace, and one of them was wanting to start a, a freight brokerage in California. So I actually went, went out to California and launched her company at the same time I was building mine. So I set up a six-month consulting agreement just to pay the payroll,

Tim Melanson: Wow

Randy Vlasic: so I could get my business back to stable before I went out and, you know, was able to come back to it

Tim Melanson: Yeah. That, that’s the thing, right? I mean, it really does teach you that problem-solving mindset of like, "Hey, I’m in control. Hey, life is what you make it," right?

Randy Vlasic: Right. Well, we make it, right?

Tim Melanson: Life

Randy Vlasic: I don’t think anything in life we can do by ourselves. It always takes more than one

Tim Melanson: Oh, I love that. So now, along with the, the good note, sometimes there’s some things that don’t go as planned. So I do like to talk about the bad note because it seems as though that is the number one thing that holds people back from getting started. They think, "What could go wrong?"

Right? And I like to talk about it because, uh, uh, I- there’s probably something that went wrong, and you’re still here. [00:07:00] So can you tell us, you know, something that went wrong and, and how you recovered?

Randy Vlasic: Yeah, I think, um, there’s two really major times in my career that, that stand out to me. The first one is, is I didn’t really know myself. Like, my identity wasn’t really great when I was, uh, s- running my first company because it was all about money and profits and making money, right? And that’s all I cared about, and I built my entire life, right, my whole identity was built around this business that I created.

It didn’t have anything to do with anything outside of that. And then when I sold it, you know, I had all this money, but I didn’t have that business anymore. So it was like I lost it, and I didn’t know really who I was anymore. So for a year, I was, like, probably in the darkest place I’ve ever been. You know, I got, I got really depressed at the time, and I started to really look back at some of the things that I did as a, as a leader in that business and some of the lives that I impacted and some of the bad decisions that I made.

There was a lot of people that I reached out to, and I, I apologized You know, but I had to find my identity, and so I, I started to get back into church, and I [00:08:00] started to, to find other people in my life that could help me get out of that, that were mentors and that were in, in good places. And, um, you know, there were a couple friends that I made through that journey that really helped, helped get out of that, and helped me get started and build Life is What We Make It.

And so that’s kind of where this whole concept came from, right? Life is What We Make It. It was about people building each other up, bringing each other together. That was a really dark place in my life, and so I think finding my identity was a, was, um, one of the most important things. Because before I could build anything, I needed to know who I was first, right?

And, you know, at the end of the day, I’m, I’m, I’m a man of God, I’m a father, I’m a husband. Um, I’m a builder. And the… What my, my concept is is what Life is What We Make It is, is to deliver inspiration, inspire people to take ownership of their lives and build something meaningful. LIWMI Logistics, that freight brokerage company, that’s the tool that we use to enable everybody to do that.

You know, it’s not about just profits. It’s about using that as the tool to help people achieve the lives they want. The, the [00:09:00] second one is the one I just told you about, where, you know, the market crashed and, uh, I lost about 60% of my business. We didn’t lose customers, we just lost volume, you know? And, um, and, and I didn’t know what I was gonna do.

I didn’t know how I was gonna make payroll. And I just randomly, I’m like, "Hey, you know, maybe I’ll ask if, if I can start this other company for, for this lady I’m coaching." And she was in. And so that was it. I was running two companies at the same time. I’d have the same meeting schedule, back-to-back meetings.

You know, I’d run with, with my team, then I’d run with her team, and I was building her team at the same time I was building mine. I did that for six months, and I was traveling all over the place, and it was, it was wild. And, um, it was a cool thing, too, because, you know, you go back to the MLM model, you know, the people that I had just hired, like, I had just sold them this dream about how awesome this was gonna be and how we were making so much money and where we were going with the business, and they come on board, and then all of a sudden the business tanks.

You know? And a lot of them took a chance on me. Like, they were taking pay cuts to come here because they knew this was a good opportunity, and they, they’ve worked with me in the [00:10:00] past, and they knew what I was about. And so now I had to show up for them. I can’t just go lay these people off. You know, I could’ve, but then I went back to being a self-operator, so I had to find another way.

And that, um, was weird, right? Like, trying to come up with an alternative solution. I’ve never actually coached somebody before. I had to figure out how to coach them. At the same time, like, I’ve never ran two companies at the same time, so this is kind of scary. But you know what? I gotta do it, and this is a great opportunity.

And then, you know, I just dove in.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Wow, that’s amazing. Now, is there anything that you do differently coming out of those experiences like that, that you learn from?

Randy Vlasic: Yeah. You know, the, um… After selling my first company and really thinking about the relationships that I had, you know, I, I, I didn’t have a lot of relationships from that previous company. Um, I was so focused on the results that I didn’t really spend enough time on, on focusing on the individual and really getting to know them, and so I realized that [00:11:00] afterwards.

And so now, you know, if… I, I would hope that if you’d ask anybody on my team, they’d say that I am 100%… I’m, I’m really a softie at heart and I care, and I always wanna make sure that I am doing everything I possibly can to make them successful before we ever get to a place where, you know, it’s not working out right and we have to go the other way.

And so getting to know them, um, is really important to me and, and what makes them tick. You know, I like learning about their interests because let’s face it, like, their job is not what they’re passionate, uh, their most passionate thing in their life, right? There’s something else. It’s being a musician or, you know, running a podcast or having a, a Twitch channel or a stream or whatever that can be, or their kid’s in soccer.

And so if I learn about those things, then, you know, I can use LIWMI Logistics as a tool to, to help them achieve some of the things they wanna accomplish there too. You know, maybe it’s sending somebody some nice equipment so they can start their Twitch channel or, you know, giving them a, a, you know, a, a giant [00:12:00] soccer net that I had sitting around that we’re not using because I know their kid loves soccer.

And sometimes those small things just make such a big difference. So I really try to focus in on the, um, just on the person and really getting to know them. I genuinely love people

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and figuring out the why, right? Because that is, that is the reason why people get out of bed. There’s gotta be a reason, right?

Randy Vlasic: 100%, yeah. And everybody’s different. Sometimes it’s, it’s surprising

Tim Melanson: Yeah, it is. Let’s talk a little bit about practicing. So, uh, I mean, this can go anywhere, but I’m wondering what, what does practice mean to you?

Randy Vlasic: Uh, you know, I call it, um, mastery, right? It’s like I- I- for me to learn something, first I have to, I have to be interested in it. I have to generate that curiosity to really want to learn it, right? So just like as an instrument, if I wanna learn how to play the guitar, I’m doing that because I love the guitar.

I love the way it sounds. I wanna get in there, and I wanna, wanna understand it. So now I’m watching the YouTube videos. There’s passion there and excitement. So I have to have that curiosity, number one, but once I have that, it’s just em- um, embracing it, right? I think [00:13:00] mastery comes from stepping into that environment and getting to know that environment, and then putting yourself in that uncomfortable situation and getting comfortable in it, right?

It’s like getting on a podcast for the first time. You don’t really know if you’re gonna say the right things. A lot of times you probably don’t. But the more times that you’re in that environment, you know, the more comfortable you get in it, the, and the more mastery or, or, or the better you get at that craft.

I mean, I use sales as an example, too, ’cause I’ve seen so many people who’ll be like, "Well, I’m, I’m struggling in sales." Well, what do you need? Well, they’ll say, "Well, I need more training. You know, I need more training. I wish I had… There was this secret thing." And it’s, there’s no secret sauce to say, "Hey, if you said this, you’re gonna close 90% of your deals."

There isn’t. For m- most of them, I just like to say, "You know what? Practice makes perfect. You gotta be on the phone. You have to be talking to somebody. You have to be in that environment. You have to be getting hit with objections. When you get those, when you get stuck, bring that to me. Let’s work through some of those things."

But we can train on everything today, but [00:14:00] until you put it into practice, it’s really not gonna stick, right?

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, and, and I found, I found something really fascinating to me is that when you do that kind of coaching with multiple people in your team, it’s interesting that there are some objections that are the same that everybody gets, but there’s also, like, differences as well. And do you find that that’s, that that happens to you as well, that certain people get certain objections all the time?

Randy Vlasic: Yeah, I think it, um, it depends on how that individual’s delivering themselves sometimes, I think, right? The, the objections, a lot of, lot of objections are similar. Um, but sometimes it’s just that the way that the person is delivering a certain topic or, or the questions that they’re asking that they’ll get at the same objection that somebody else may not be getting.

So sometimes it is that individual

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and it may, it might have something to do with just the belief and that aspect of whatever it is that they’re offering, right?

Randy Vlasic: Yeah. I mean, belief is the biggest thing, right? It’s, if you can believe in what you’re [00:15:00] selling, you know, you’re gonna be more successful, right? I always, I always use it as this ex- use this example. Like, if you, if I came to you, Tim, and I was like, "Hey, I know you have cancer, and I have the cure for cancer, and I wanna give that to you, but it’s gonna cost you $100,000."

Now, cancer is a significant thing, right? You– if, if, if you had the funds then you, you probably would say yes. But let’s just say you’re like, "No, I don’t, I don’t really want this." My, my conviction on this, this, this cure, though. You’re like, "No one’s ever done this before." I’m like, "No, but I know this." The way that I feel about selling you this pill, the conviction is so strong that I can’t s- I can’t let you say no, Tim.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Randy Vlasic: You know, you have to say yes, and so I’ll have to find a way to do that. That’s always an example I like to use

Tim Melanson: Yep, it’s true. Yeah, and, and, and yeah, I mean, that’s the thing is that if the person doesn’t want on the other side, then it, it, it’s really just a mismatch in what they’re looking for. And then that just probably comes down to more questions. You know, you [00:16:00] didn’t ask the right questions to find out if they actually had cancer in the first place, right?

Randy Vlasic: Yep.

Tim Melanson: I mean, that’s an odd example, but yes.

Randy Vlasic: Yeah, I mean, it all comes down to, you know, to understanding the individual that we’re talking to. Like s- I don’t think sales is some… There’s definitely some technique to it, but most of it is just building a relationship and then getting to know what makes the person tick and what they’re trying to accomplish, and helping them do that.

So if we can identify that problem and give them the solution, then there’s a good chance they’re, they’re gonna take it

Tim Melanson: Yep. And I do think that o- as time goes on too, uh, I mean, the, the, you know, the, the tricks, I guess, are less effective as more time goes on, I think, because, uh, I think that, um, you know, especially with AI coming out and all that stuff, there’s lots of, of, you know, tactics and things that you can use. But really people do business with people, and so the more real you are about, you know, yourself, you know, they’re, they’re gonna be attracted to you ’cause they like you, you know, rather than the next person over there that can sell them the same thing, right?

And oftentimes that’s the [00:17:00] thing, is it’s a lot of different people offering the same solution. Why would they choose you, right?

Randy Vlasic: Yeah.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, so

Randy Vlasic: I, even in, in the logistics side of things, I mean, I could give you an example. You know, we roll out LTL as a service, which is less than truckload. It was a new service offering we had, and we’ve never done it before. And I’ve, I have done it at my previous companies and managed, you know, $50 million of it.

But, you know, as a new service offering, going to a customer and being able to say, "Listen, I know you guys are doing this. I know there’s opportunity there. I know I can offer a solution, and I wanna build that for you, and I want you to be the one to help me build that. Help, help me understand what’s important so that I can build this solution to really meet your need."

And they love that stuff. You know, it’s not just like, "Hey, let me sell you LTL." It’s like, "Let me- let’s make this together." You

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Hey, your, uh, your background looks awesome. That, is it, that’s a real background, right?

Randy Vlasic: It is, it is, yeah

Tim Melanson: So let’s talk a little bit about your jam room. So what does your home [00:18:00] office look like?

Randy Vlasic: Oh, man, it is a production studio, Tim. I love my home office, um, so much, and I’ve invested a ton of money into it and, and time. And, you know, when I first started working from home in 2017, I think it was, um, you know, I had a, I had an office room, and it had this big giant desk in it, and it had another desk in it, and it had a, a file cabinet and all this stuff in there.

And, like, I had a standup desk that sat on top of that, and it was just cluttered. And it wasn’t, um, a place that I really loved because it was like the storage closet, right? My wife would, like, she needed to h- to stick something somewhere, she’d put it in the office, right?

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Randy Vlasic: So I got stuff all over the place and I’m like, "I hate this."

You know, when I walk into work every day I’m like, "Man, this environment is just not, it’s not motivating me," you know? And, uh, so I’m like, we had this, this room in the front of the house. I, I called it the museum room. It was the room where, like, we had all the nice furniture but nobody ever really sat in it.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Randy Vlasic: And I’m like, "I’m taking the museum room over." So I [00:19:00] took that over. I have, um, the VariDesk, which is one of my favorite desks. They’re just super durable. They’re kind of expensive, but Vari makes them. Um, it’s a standup desk. Underneath me I have a, um, uh, a treadmill. So I typically like to walk when I’m working during the day.

I sit down when I’m doing stuff like this. But I spent a lot of time, you know, in, in getting good equipment, cameras and lights and, and making this a place that I really love to come into, and sometimes I’ll come in here for fun, you know?

Tim Melanson: That is awesome.

Randy Vlasic: yeah.

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome, yeah. And, and, and that’s just it. I mean, if, if your, if your job is at home and you’re not excited to get into your office, then how are you really gonna get anything done, right?

Randy Vlasic: That’s right. So I, I definitely love this space. You know, my kids love, love this space too, and I like to keep it clean and tidy when I can, and yeah

Tim Melanson: Uh, have you, uh, do, do you have an issue with, like, people interrupting you during the day at all, or?

Randy Vlasic: Um, yeah, [00:20:00] sometimes. I mean, my kids are… You know, my son’s on this e-bike kick, right? And so it’s like every time he needs something with the e-bike, he just walks in, he’s like, "I need new tires. I need new brakes," whatever it may be. And so he’ll walk in, and sometimes it happens, but for the most part, you know, they can hear me or they see that I’m on a call, and they know that, you know, when Dad’s on a call, don’t bother him.

Um, and then they’ll come in, and they’ll sometimes they’ll just give me a wave and they’ll walk by, and I’ll know they need something, and I’ll go find them afterwards. And sometimes, you know, I just had an example where I was having a conversation with a, an employee the other day, and my son, he just made the honor roll, right?

Comes home from school super excited. He comes running into my office. I can see the excitement on his face, and I know, I’m like, "Man, this is something I probably need to listen to." And I, I asked, you know, the employee, I was like, "Hey, man, listen, can you give me a couple minutes? Can I call you right back?"

Had him sit down and tell me all about it. He was so excited. Um, so there’s times like that, too, you know, where I, I, I will, uh, uh, stop what I’m doing to give him the time, and I think that’s the benefit of working from home, right? You’d have the same interactions if you’re sitting at a desk in a cubicle.

Someone’s gonna walk up to you and bother you in the middle of the day, and you’re gonna [00:21:00] stop what you’re doing and talk to them. So rather it be my kid, you know-

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And, uh, I mean, I think that this kind of thing maybe might keep people from starting a business from home, thinking that, "Oh, I’m just gonna get interrupted all day," and I don’t know how… And, and number one, I think kids espe- especially more than adults, they get it faster, right? I mean, if you, you know, maybe, um, and I know when I first g- started working from home long before lockdowns and all that stuff, people didn’t quite understand it.

They thought I could help them move ’cause I was doing nothing.

Randy Vlasic: That’s right.

Tim Melanson: right? But

Randy Vlasic: go golfing?

Tim Melanson: go ahead

Randy Vlasic: You know, or somebody asks you to go golfing or whatever during the day, I’m like, "I’m working."

Tim Melanson: Yeah. They’re like, "Ah, I got the day off, let’s go golfing." And you’re like, "Oh, come on." But, but I, I think that for, for kids it’s like th- they don’t know any different, so it’s, it’s a matter of like, "Oh, Dad works from home, so he’s working.

Like, okay, I gotta leave him alone." So you, you do find that. But then the, the next thing you mentioned about when your kid comes in, how do you think that, like, the, the, how did the customer react when [00:22:00] you had to go for a second?

Randy Vlasic: Um, it w- it wasn’t a customer. If it was a customer, I- typically I would tell my son, "I’ll- give me a minute and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll reach out to you." Unless it’s somebody that I’m really close with and I could say, "Hey, David, you know, we’ve worked together for a long time. Can I just call you back in a minute?" I think the customer will respond, uh, well to that.

You know, I, I, most people find, like, when it’s something that’s really important to you like that, like your kids and, you know, they have kids and they can share in that too, like, they’ll, they’ll promote that. I think as somebody who’s considering to work from home, you know, man, I have kids at home, and is that an interruption?

Like, yeah, I think working from home is the absolute best because it gives us more flexibility than working in an office. First of all, I’m saving, you know, whatever it is, 13, 30 minutes, half an hour, an hour drive time each single, every single day. If I was working late, I’m working at the office, so I can’t just come out and have dinner with my family and go back in.

Here I can do that, right? I can step out, I can go ha- have a meal with my family, I can get them off to school. I can come back in, I can get back to work. And I think that’s [00:23:00] the, that’s where working from home really is super valuable, and I think that work-life balance that it provides to our employees too is the same, you know?

Like I have, we have people that their kids get off the bus at 3:00. Every day at 3:00, they’re going to get their kid from the bus. Like it- that’s great. Go get your kid from the bus. Like I don’t expect you to sit here from 8:00 to 5:00 and work nonstop and, and ignore everything that’s going around you. All what I care about is, you know, did we meet the KPIs and the expectations?

Are we getting the results that we need, you know? That’s all that matters to me. If you can– If you’re a salesperson that can deliver exceptional results better than any other salesperson and do it in four hours, nobody’s pissed off about that.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Randy Vlasic: You’re leading the sales team, but you’re gonna do it in four hours.

Everybody else is doing less, and they’re doing it in eight. Like no one’s mad about that.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, number one, I, I agree. I, I think that clients and, and team members actually, I think it probably benefits you to show that you’re a human and you have, you know, y- [00:24:00] you love your kids and that kind of stuff, right? Like, I think that that’s a super benefit. And then the second part that you mentioned too, like, yeah, I mean, there’s just so many people in the corporate world that are focused on how much time they’re at the office rather than what kind of productivity that they’re producing.

And I mean, that’s really what’s important. And w- as business owners, we should be more interested in what they’re producing rather than how much time they’re sitting at their desk, right?

Randy Vlasic: I mean, it all comes down to results, you know? And I definitely don’t wanna be the person that has to micromanage you. You know, I can … I don’t need a software tool that runs on everybody’s laptop that tells me, you know, what they’re doing ni- every single minute of the day. I just need to know that our business KPIs are this, you know, maybe it’s Y, and we need to hit that KPI.

And so as long as we’re hitting that metric and that metric is, is operating, great. Now, if we’re not hitting that metric, then we’re having a conversation about that. But I’m not sitting there going, "Hey, you’re, you, you turned yellow for, for 30 minutes. Like, what have you been doing?" Like, I don’t wanna be that guy.

I wanna give that to the team and let them run with it, [00:25:00] you

Tim Melanson: Yeah. So what tools do you use in your business to get you success?

Randy Vlasic: Um, well, I think my home setup is my biggest, my biggest tool. This is a command center, right? From a, from a digital standpoint, I am having so much fun with artificial intelligence.

Tim Melanson: Hmm.

Randy Vlasic: So much fun with it. I am, uh, you know, I, I’m, I am not, uh, a programmer by all means. You know, I’ve launched a personal branding website.

I just launched, um, lifeiswhatwemakeit.com, which is, is about giving, giving back to, to, to drivers. And so there’s, you know, gear that we sell and stuff like that, and then we give proceeds to, to the driving community and give them healthy meals. And like, you know, I’ve built that stuff and, and by myself in a matter of hours.

You know, I remember when I first built my first website for LIWMI Logistics, it cost me $10,000 to build that. You know, when I went to go build randyvlasich.com, they wanted 4,000. Then I found AI, and I was like, "Pfft," and I built it in three hours by myself, and I never coded a [00:26:00] single thing before, right? So I’m also using AI a lot of times, like, to be my executive assistant.

It sends me an update every single morning in my email. It tells me where the numbers are at. So I’m us- loving AI in that way. It’s making me… It’s like unlocking superpowers for me. Like, it fills all the gaps that I had, and all the things that I hated doing, it does those great.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Ugh, I can’t say enough about it as well. All that left brain stuff, right? I mean, it allows you to be creative and it lets all the monotonous stuff, it does it for you, right?

Randy Vlasic: Time-consuming stuff. Like just, you know, I can come up with the, the, the content that I wanna deliver, it can help me build it, and then I can just do it, or I can have it run an analysis, and then I can just validate it for a customer. From an analog perspective, um, you know, I, I, I like to read a little bit.

Um, I’m not great at it, but I do like to read a little bit. My favorite tool, my favorite instrument though would definitely be the pen.

Tim Melanson: Hmm

Randy Vlasic: Um, I love fountain pens, and I think everything starts for me with the pen. [00:27:00] And, you know, when you th- when I- we talk about goals and things like that, like I’m, I’m a … I like to journal every single day.

I like to, to ta- to see how my day went. It forces me to slow down, to, to think intentionally, to write it down. And then when I get into the business side of thing, when it comes to planning, like I like to just un- disconnect from, from the digital world, and, and just sit there and really just write, plan, strategy, mind map.

Um, even like my business, uh, business vision, right? I mean, we all have goals in life. I think vision’s, the vision of it is the most important, and having a document to me is, is the best because if I can look out three years in my business, and I have it written down on a piece of paper, and I have that in front of me every single day, I’m always looking at it.

And if I get off track, I can very specifically see where I’m off track and what I need to fix. And so for my vision, I like to look out three years and then write it in present tense. What do I see in the, ar- around me? What are we doing as a remote company? What are we, uh, [00:28:00] philanthropic things are we doing?

What are we doing as a, as a community? How are we getting together? How are we helping other people? And I can write that in, in present tense and then have that document to do it. So for me, it’s definitely a pen and paper.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Wow. That’s amazing. Yeah, and so you do… It’s, it’s almost affirmations, I guess, right? Where you write it in the present tense

Randy Vlasic: Yeah. So, um, yeah, just like affirmations, right? I’m a successful person. I’m, uh, you know, I’m a CEO of a $100 million company and, uh, we have a worldwide remote team and, you know, we’re, we’re getting featured in, in a lot of different articles, and companies are coming to us and they’re, they’re asking us how we, how we run the successful remote team, and they’re learning from us and operationally how they do it.

Like, it, it puts you in that environment, right? And then you can, you can see that

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And they work. I mean, I know a lot of people think that they don’t, uh, but it is, it is sort of this magic, right?

Randy Vlasic: Yeah, I mean, otherwise, you know, the, the alternative is, and I’ve done it too, I’m like, "Hey, I got an Excel file that has what I wanna be as an individual, what I wanna be as a [00:29:00] business owner, what do I wanna be as a father and a husband," right? And I got all these, these things that I wanna accomplish. But that sits in a file in a folder that I never have opened.

So the only time that I’m seeing that is if I’m doing, you know, intentional reviews weekly, quarterly, monthly. But if I have a document that sits on my desk, I can share that document with somebody else now. So when I interview somebody for a job, I’m like, "Hey, read this first. Tell me what you think about it.

Where do you see yourself fitting into it?" Now I have something that’s tangible

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I love that. I love that. You know, the, the physical, there’s, there’s something to be said about that, and even physical books, right? Rather than, um, you know, e-books or even audiobooks. I mean, audiobooks are super helpful because you can listen to them while you’re doing something else. But the physical books, I mean, there is something to be said for it, right?

Randy Vlasic: 100%. I, uh, the books that I read, um … So I have attention deficit disorder, ADHD. So typically when I read a book by myself, I read a book or I read a whole chapter sometimes, and I get to the end and I’m like, "What did, what did I just read? I don’t even remember what happened." I have to go read it again. And so what I’ve [00:30:00] learned is, that works best for me is I’ll, I’ll, I’ll order the book as an audiobook, and I’ll listen to the book while I read it, and then I just use the book for notes, and I take notes in the book, and I highlight things as I’m listening to it, but I like to listen to it

Tim Melanson: That’s an excellent idea. I never even thought to do that. That’s a great idea because you just order it in two different formats, and now you can follow along in the book just like your parents read to you.

Randy Vlasic: That’s right. And then I have, again, that tangible thing that I, if I wanna m- I’m like, "Hey, there was that book that I read and I love that spot." I can just go grab it off the bookshelf, and I can open it up, and I can see it

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Love that. So I’m excited to hear your guest solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your, in your business right now

Randy Vlasic: Oh my gosh. Um, so I just launched Life is What We Make It, like the real movement part of it, about a month ago. Um, so the cultures and the values all live in LIWMIlogistics.com, and we’re doing amazing things. The freight market is absolutely wild right now.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Randy Vlasic: Help companies understand their transportation in such a way that it becomes such a value proposition to them in the [00:31:00] market.

But Life is What We Make It, um, the whole goal of it is to inspire men and people to, to take ownerships for lives and build something meaningful. And so I’m trying to build a following and share some content that’s, that’s able to help some other folks that may be be in similar industries, and bring on maybe a couple guests that can share some of their stories.

Um, and then I’m just using LIWMI Logistics as kind of the tool to, to, to enable m- myself and my team to be able to do those things. So the movement is, is starting. It’s very new, you know, and, uh, and again, it’s one of those things just like anything else. It’s scary, man. I, I … This is my seventh podcast and I can’t

You know, every single one I get off and I’m like, "What was I thinking? Why did I say that?" And then this is the same thing. I’m like, "Why did I roll that content out? Oh my God, I, I didn’t put music on or I did something wrong." And, but it’s fun and it’s ins- it’s exciting for me. And the, um, what it’s doing for other people is the most rewarding thing.

You know, I have 20-something-thousand TikTok followers [00:32:00] on TikTok, right? And I got that through, through a weird video I posted with my daughter that we made together. But now that I’ve shifted to Life is What We Make It, and I’m sharing content that has to do with like finding your identity, building your vision, how do you master your habits, what are the people that help you get there, what does m- m- uh, um, momentum look like?

Now I’m having all these kids reach out, and I never even thought about inspiring children, but I’m having my son … You know, I’ve had kids that my sons know or these kids that are reaching out. They’re like, "Hey, I never even thought about this. This is really helping me in my life."

Tim Melanson: Wow. Wow. That’s

Randy Vlasic: And so yeah, it’s been, it’s been a wonderful ride.

I’m having a lot of fun with it

Tim Melanson: So how do we find out more?

Randy Vlasic: Um, the best way to find me is just go to randyvlasic.com. Um, it links to all my social platforms there and everything that I’m doing. Um, it links to, um, our movement site as well. Um, so again, just randyvlasic.com

Tim Melanson: And so where’s the podcast available then?

Randy Vlasic: Right on randyvlasic.com. It’s hosted on, on [00:33:00] all the major podcast networks. So you can find it on Spotify and, uh, I have it on YouTube, um, Apple Podcast, Amazon Music, but all of the links for everything that I do is on randyvlasic.com

Tim Melanson: Oh, love that. Right on. All right, so maybe the toughest question of all, and we’re gonna get into the music side a little bit. So who is your favorite rock star or band?

Randy Vlasic: Oh, God. I think, um, man, I love Kid Rock. I w- yeah, I think from a rock star standpoint, like definitely it’s Kid Rock, but I love all kinds of music. The only thing I don’t listen to is hard metal, but outside of that I’ll, I’ll, I’m rap, rock, and, and country all in the same car ride.

Tim Melanson: Nice. Well, I mean, those, those are kind of like getting mixed together nowadays, isn’t it?

Randy Vlasic: Yeah. Yeah, no doubt it is. It is

Tim Melanson: Have you ever seen Kid Rock in concert?

Randy Vlasic: I did. Last time I saw them was at, uh, Summerfest in, in Milwaukee. I went with my wife.

Tim Melanson: That’d be quite the show, eh?

Randy Vlasic: oh, it was a great show. Great show

Tim Melanson: that’s awesome. Well, thank [00:34:00] you so much for rocking out with me today, Randy. This has been a lot of fun

Randy Vlasic: Oh, Tim, it’s been my pleasure. Thank you so much for having on me, or having me on the show

Tim Melanson: No problem. And so we’ll see you next time on the n- on the Work At Home Rockstar podcast, and make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information

Randy Vlasic: Take care

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work At Home Rockstar podcast. Today, I’m speaking with the owner of Plug Technologies, and what he does is he connects L- Latin American talent with US companies. So I’m excited to be rocking out today with Brian Samson. Hey, Brian. You ready to rock?

BrianSamson: Tim, I am ready to rock

Tim Melanson: Awesome. We always start off on a good note.

Tell me a story of success that we can all be inspired by

BrianSamson: Yeah, I, um, uh, have grown three different companies from zero to $4 million in revenue. Um, so, uh, that’s something I, I f- I feel pretty good about hanging my hat on

Tim Melanson: That’s a, that’s a pretty good one. Yeah, absolutely. Did you, did you see that? Like, was that like a goal that you had, or h- how did that all come about?

BrianSamson: Yeah, I mean, I think I love the ethos of your show because I did not grow up in an entrepreneur family. I, I waited a long time to become an entrepreneur. I was, um, [00:01:00] I’ve been one going on 11 years, but that meant, like, my mid-30s is when I finally, you know, had the courage, gumption, whatever, and sanity to, you know, go out on my own.

Um, uh, and, you know, I, I kinda did it in a weird way where, um, my Well, I, I should say I, I, I actually did, like, a kind of a first-level entrepreneurship, you know, way back in 2012 where … I think this is where most people start, and if they’ve ever read, like, the Robert Kiyosaki books, you know, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Cashflow Quadrant, you know, there’s, like, the four quadrants of, you know, employee, self-employed, uh, business owner, and then investor.

So I’ve kinda been, like, moving my way, you know, through the Kiyosaki quadrants. But the first step people tend to make is the, um, [00:02:00] you know, like, solopreneur. So, um, the ones we’re most common with are, um, you know, lawyers and doctors. You know, they open their own practice, um, and they just charge a high hourly rate , you know, but it’s, you know, still their time.

So, uh, my background came up through recruiting and talent acquisition, so that’s what I charge. You know, I would, um, you know, find, uh … I decided to go independent. I just had a couple of handful of clients and charged for my own time. And, um, what I, you know … And I did it entirely from home. I was in San Francisco.

Every once in a while I’d post up at a hotel lobby, you know, and work, or a coffee shop. Um, but, um, you know, I didn’t have, like, a big war chest of funds or anything. I just, you know, hustled and kinda beat the street. [00:03:00] You know, got, got a few clients. And that all … And then I think I’ve kinda learned that entrepreneurship is just, just a whole bunch of levels, you know.

Um, I haven’t played video games in a long time, but when I did, you know, it was like, you know, you gotta get to the next level of, you know, Super Mario Brothers or something. So, uh, you know, now I think I’ve kinda made my way, you know, all the way through the different quadrants and mostly just invest money in other operators and

Um, but it took a long time to get there, and, uh, you know, it all started with selling your time for money, but doing it for multiple clients.

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome. Yeah. And that is, uh… Like, so now why did you decide to have the gumption to, to go and do that in the first place? Was there a, a big why there?

BrianSamson: Yeah, my story was I, I, I guess kind of funny in that, um, uh, I really wanted [00:04:00] to do human resources for tech startups. So I, I took this test called an SPHR, which stands for Senior Professional Human Resources. Very few people know about it. It’s not that, uh, it’s not that special. Um, but it’s ki- it’s kinda like a CPA for HR is a way to…

And the pass rate’s, um, kinda rough. It’s like less than half the people pass, and you’ve gotta be in the industry for so long to take the test. So I, I kind of decided to be an entrepreneur, studied for this test, passed the test, um, with the whole idea to sell, like, all the non-recruiting stuff to tech startups.

So like I could help design your benefits and your comp plans and then everything. And no one wanted to buy that, but they’re like, "Hey, could you, could you recruit for us?" Yeah, I do have recruiting experience. I could do that. [00:05:00] So, um, so like my initial, my initial thesis was way off in terms of like product market fit, like what I, what I w- what I wanted to offer and what I wanted people to buy versus what they wanted to buy.

Um, but I still had something of value that they wanted to buy, and then we, we kinda dug, dug deeper in there and, and then I would lead with recruiting and then maybe try to, you know, sell some of the other stuff later

Tim Melanson: Okay. Okay, cool. So really, you, you, uh, y- you sort of grew into the role that you’re in right now. You found something that people were looking for, and you wanted to offer that. W- had you been in a cubicle before that? Like, what, what, where did you come

BrianSamson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, so I started my career in Chicago, um, in like a real traditional bullpen environment. So staffing agency. And, uh, so it was like kind of cubicles, but really tables. You know? You’re just, you’re just kinda like crammed in. There’s like a bunch of tables, and it’s [00:06:00] kinda like a boil- a little boiler room.

You know? Like crammed in with tables, um, phones, computers. And, um, and I loved it because you could learn through osmosis, you know, and like hear all these conversations. The people that do agency type work, like staffing agency type work, they’re a little more like aggressive, assertive. There’s a lot of banter.

You know? A lot of like poking fun, you know, stuff like that. So it was really, really lively. Um, so I wouldn’t trade that for the world. Like I’m really glad that I got to spend my 20s in these bullpen environments. Um, but then like once you learn it, you just kinda want some quiet to work . You know?

Tim Melanson: yeah

BrianSamson: So, uh, so I, I don’t need that anymore.

Um, and, uh, um, you know, and then it was like work from home after that. But, but I started in the, you know, [00:07:00] pseudo cubicle. Really more of just like a, you know, a table and, and, uh, and, and a lot of loud noise in the a- in the area

Tim Melanson: Wow. So, w- uh, now a lot of people are just afraid to fail, and they think that they’re gonna make some big mistakes and it’s gonna, you know, ruin everything, right? Especially when they’ve got their so-called safe job, right? Uh, n- not necessarily anymore, but whatever. I mean, still, it, it is a steady paycheck for, for, for whatever it is.

But now when you get out into your, on your, on your own and you start doing this on your own, there are some things that don’t go as planned. And I’m wondering, can you share with me one of those big mistakes that you made along the path and how you recovered from that?

BrianSamson: Yeah. Um, so when I, when I first got my, like, I’d say, like, more l- like, the second level of entrepreneurship, um, I was building a, um, a Latin America software business. And, [00:08:00] um, so our team was in Latin America. Um, the… You know, I, I came out of recruiting, not sales, so, um, I always felt like sales was something somebody else could do, you know?

Um, and you could just, like, hire some superstar. They’d, they’d be a rainmaker and bring in all this money. But, um, that didn’t go… So it was really more of, like, a business owner fail, you know, where I hired, uh, two pretty expensive salespeople from the industry, and, um, just month after month, like, how come we’re not getting any revenue?

Isn’t that what, what, you know,

Tim Melanson: hired you for?

BrianSamson: Yeah, we hired you guys for. Um, and then, you know, had to eventually move on from them. But I think I was just, like, really intimidated, and I, I, and I, I, I bet a lot of people might identify with this, you know, where they’ve got the [00:09:00] skill with marketing or finance or accounting or back office operations or something, and just not sales, right?

Like, sales was always what, like, wild, extroverted person would do. And, um, um, and that’s, that’s how I thought. But I, think I underestimated, um, my, like, the grace people would give me because I was the founder of the business. So I could say the wrong things, um, not run a real proper sales call or discovery or ask the right questions, but because I was the founder, people wanted to talk to me, and they, and they could see, you know, I cared about their business and them as a client, and that, that really mattered.

So I’d say, um, the biggest mistake was just trying to, like, buy my way into revenue,

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

BrianSamson: and, um, not [00:10:00] recognizing, like, it’s… You just have to do it. Like, everyone’s gotta sell, no matter how introverted or reserved you might be or how your superpower might be something else. Um, being a founder, uh, it’s something that you should do.

You should do the sales, but also recognize that it’s compounding. Like, it’s another skill set that you get to have for yourself

Tim Melanson: Yeah. That’s, that is really accessible, I think, for everybody. And, and I mean, I, I think that’s true that sales, uh, I mean, this comes up all the time, but, like, uh, people are … I think people have a negative view of what they think sales is based on probably some negative experiences where they got sold, right?

Something that they didn’t actually want. But really, what sales is supposed to be, I think w- what you just said, I mean, y- you’re really just showing somebody how you can fix a problem, aren’t you?

BrianSamson: Right. [00:11:00] Yeah

Tim Melanson: and, and isn’t that what you do? Don’t you fix problems? That’s what, that’s what entrepreneurship is

BrianSamson: that’s exactly it. Yeah, it doesn’t matter if you’re selling, you know, IT support or marketing services. You’re, you’re trying to make somebody else’s business better

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, you’re trying to help them. And, and like you just said, I mean, I think that, uh, you know, as a founder or, or, or even as a salesman, I mean, the … I, I would argue that the best salesman, and I’m not talking about maybe some p- salesman might be able to rack up some big sales, but then you get some returns and some buyer’s remorse that comes back from that if you don’t do it right.

But if you do it right, then you just, you’re really good at, at caring, at, at asking good questions, and at showing people that you’re a real person that they want to do business with, right? And like you said, I mean, they’re, you know, the, you’re the founder of the company. People are like, "Okay, well, what’s this thing all about?

I wanna know how you can fix my problem." And if you’re real about that, [00:12:00] and I mean, you can say some things that aren’t by the book, but, but, but as long as that person on the other line goes, "Okay, well, yeah, it seems like he’s being honest," that’s, that’s what they want, right?

BrianSamson: Oh, man, yeah. I mean, people are, I think, tired. You know, I, I, I overestimated the, like, the extroversion, you know, the, the… I- and I’m not that, I’m not, I’m really not that extroverted as a person. Um, uh, much more reserved. So I think I, like, overvalued that people just wanna do business with extroverted people, but really they just want their problem solved, you know?

It doesn’t matter how, how, how you go about doing it. So, you know, I encourage people that are listening that are maybe, like, a little more reserved or they’ve never sold, they’ve never thought they’ve sold anything before, you’ve been selling your whole life, you know, you just, you’re j- you’re just doing it in your own way

Tim Melanson: Yep. I, I, and I think also [00:13:00] probably if you don’t know you’re selling, then it probably just means that you really believe in what you’re selling

BrianSamson: Yeah. Yeah ‘

Tim Melanson: Cause it’s really, really connected. You’re just going like, "I’ve got a good idea and I really think it’s a good idea." You’re technically selling that, but I think, like I said, I mean, I think a lot of people have this negative view of what sales is and they think that sales is actually convincing somebody of something, and it’s not necessarily that.

It’s, it’s showing them that you can help them with that problem. It’s, it’s more of a communication style, right?

BrianSamson: Right. Right. Totally. Totally

Tim Melanson: Yeah. So I, I mean, I wish that sales was like a critical part of, like, school or the regular cur- curriculum, ’cause people really should be learning that. Because even if you don’t ever decide to be in a business, you’re still sitting in meetings at work, and if you don’t know how to, how to express your opinions, then, uh, like how, how do you even [00:14:00] do that?

Like, how do you be successful in a, in a regular job if you can’t sell your ideas or you can’t even convince them that you want a raise, right? I mean, all that is sales, right?

BrianSamson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s right. That’s exactly right

Tim Melanson: So it’s definitely worthwhile learning, I think, right?

BrianSamson: Mm-hmm. That’s exactly right

Tim Melanson: so let’s talk a little bit about the, the cashflow aspect of business, and I mean, that’s another thing that trips people up. I think that number one, people think they need to set, spend a certain amount of money on certain things. You know, it’s a business expense, it’s a write-off or whatever, anything like that.

But then it ends up that that kind of like runs away. Like, how do you, especially when you’re first getting started, make sure that you’re gonna make the money back that you’re investing, and is it normal for you to run at a loss for a little while?

BrianSamson: Yeah, good question. Um, I think a services business is different from a tech business or a product business. I think tech and product, you’re, you’re funding losses [00:15:00] to get to market quickly. But if you’re running a services business, you should really be making money pretty quickly, right? Um, uh, you know, otherwise, I think you’re…

there’s something kind of missing there. Um, but I will say that I’ve, I’ve made errors on both sides, you know, where I’ve over-invested or I’ve under-invested. Um, you know, this is probably a little bit more, like, further down the road, but sometimes it’s good for people to see, you know, what, what could be next.

Um, right out of COVID, um, I was in, like, the biggest bull market I think I’ve ever seen in the recruiting world. Um, but I was fearful because, you know, I just had, like, all my revenue taken away during COVID, right? So I was very fearful as the market started to pick up fast, like [00:16:00] fast. And, you know, I had, like, uh, somebody on my team who was helping me with delivery and, you know, I, I wouldn’t even, like, spring for her own Gmail, like business Gmail address, you know, like $7 a month.

I’m like, you know, just running so tight. And I look back like, "What was I thinking?" You know? Um, but on the… And then, um, when the market, you know, was at the top of the bubble, you know, nobody knows

Tim Melanson: When you’re at the top, yeah. Yeah

BrianSamson: So, um, uh, you know, I hired a whole bunch of expensive people, you know, and had no idea, right?

And that… So I waited way too long to invest and, you know, I was, I was way too tight when I should’ve been. But, you know, wisdom comes from experience of making the wrong decisions, so I’ll hopefully know next time

Tim Melanson: Oh man, that, that is a, that is a great story. Happened to [00:17:00] me too. It, it is funny how that happens, like when you’re w- when things are, are going rough, like you’re just really scared to put any money into it, and then when it starts to go up, then you start to put too much money into it, and yeah, that does cause some major problems ’cause now y- you’re kinda like, it’s like, what, what did I say before?

It, it, it takes like three months to build momentum, and then it also takes three months for that momentum to disappear as well. So it’s like the things you do today are gonna be affecting you in three months’ time, whether that’s good decisions or bad decisions. So there’s always this lag, and that’s very difficult to get a hold of as a business owner.

Like, so what did you learn from that experience so that, you know, you, you’re ready for that next time?

BrianSamson: Yeah. I mean, I think, um, I’d much rather be lean than overdoing it, you know? Um, so I think I, I’d much rather be lean. But, um, you wanna [00:18:00] build an optionality and flexibility in all your spend, right? So, um, like I don’t think I’d ever sign a year-long contract with anything anymore, you know? know, and even like software, you know, like, uh, um, unless I have like no other choice, like I’ll almost…

Like I’d rather pay more and, and, and even have it like quarterly renewal than get stuck in like a really long-term contract. ‘Cause I’ve, you know, I saw that happen, you know, where, uh, like, oh, you know, go… Let, let, let’s go crazy. Let’s, let’s really try to grow this thing. Get, you know, and then you get crushed for, for a little while.

You’re like, "We’re not… We’re barely even using this software that we spent all this money on." Um, you know, so anyway, I, I would much rather be conservative and then just find ways to, um… [00:19:00] You know, may- maybe you spend more in the, in the middle of it, like, you know, the equivalent of, uh, buying your groceries at 7-Eleven, you know, for a month, right, you know, as you get settled.

Sure, it’s a little more expensive. It’s not sustainable for the long run, but it’s, it’s a finite period, just, you know, overspend because the revenue is, is, is gonna make up for it. But, um, uh, you know, the alternative of, uh, the long-term getting locked in, you know, it’s, it’s something that I would avoid going forward

Tim Melanson: Uh, right on. Yeah, I tend to agree with you on that, and sometimes I think, I think I’m making a stupid move because I’m paying, you know, 20% more by paying for things monthly. But I hear what you’re saying because soft- especially with software, new tools come out all the time. What if there’s a better tool that pops up and you’re on a year-long contract?

I [00:20:00] mean, there, it, it allows you to pivot a little bit more too to a better tool if you’re doing things monthly. Sure, you’re not saving the money, but, but I mean, there are very few tools probably in your stack that, um, that you absolutely are never gonna switch away from. Now, there are a few I’m sure, right?

BrianSamson: Yeah. Yeah, totally

Tim Melanson: but I, and l- I mean, that goes right into the next topic, so let’s talk a little bit about the tools. So what are the tools that are really useful in your business?

BrianSamson: Yeah, um, you know, QuickBooks I’ve used forever. Uh, QuickBooks Online, use it across all the different companies that I work with, invest in. Um, and then I like monday.com a lot, you know. Uh, I use it so much that I even use it to run my household,

you know? Like, uh, like,

Tim Melanson: Yeah

BrianSamson: you know, uploading docs, like, you know, my birth cer- my kids’ birth certificates are uploaded on monday.com, and I can, like, grab it whenever I need it or, you know.

Or, like, uh, we just [00:21:00] took a, a spring break trip, and all the flight bookings and everything was in there. Uh, yeah, so we, we use it all the time, and of course, you know, uh, all across the businesses. So, um, that’s, that’s probably my, my one go-to tool

Tim Melanson: Okay. Do you pay yearly or monthly?

BrianSamson: Um, you know what’s funny is, uh, I don’t think I had a choice with Monday. I think, but, but by then I’ve been like, because I use it for my household too. I’m like, ah, no. Like, there’s no, there’s no getting out of this thing.

Tim Melanson: That’s so awesome. Yeah, no, there, there’s a couple tools that you can pay by, by year, but, but most of them, yeah. No, I, I also use Monday too, and I love it. I love it, and I’ve gotten a few other c- of, uh, my clients that have gotten on Monday as well. It’s such a great tool. It’s kinda like a combination of like, you know, something like Trello and maybe something like Asana, and then you’ve got a CRM in there too.

Like, it’s just, it’s… I, I, I like it. May- I wonder if there’s a referral [00:22:00] thing. We should probably be affiliates, right?

BrianSamson: I think so

Tim Melanson: Right on. So now let’s talk a little bit about learning. So, uh, I mean, you, uh, uh, as you mentioned earlier, I mean, you didn’t come from an entrepreneurial family, but you somehow had to learn all this stuff.

Like, did you have mentors or did you, you know, take part in coaching program? What, what did you do?

BrianSamson: Yeah, I’ve been, um, really ever since I could, I’ve been, um, paying for peer groups. Um, but, um, I’ve been in multiple different ones. Um, and I think that’s important too. Um, so I’ve been in, uh, something called Vistage, which is like a, you know, um… I think it’s like the oldest, largest CEO peer group. Um, uh, so they m- they meet in person, you know, once a month, and there’s usually, uh, some executive coaching.

There’s, um, you know, speakers that come once a month, like, you [00:23:00] know, all about finance for your business or optimizing marketing for your business. You know, they’ll come in, and it’s good. It’s good stuff. Um, and then I did my– I did business school at UCLA, and there’s like a UCLA CEO founder peer group. I was a member of that.

And then, um, and then I’ve been a member of more of like a marketing, um, or it’s, it’s probably more like agency owner. You know, so a lot of people are marketing agency owners, but, um, I happen to run a recruiting agency.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

BrianSamson: Um, but anyway, um, the one, the one thing I think I’ve recognized though is it’s really important to learn from others.

Um, you’re rarely going through a problem that nobody else has gone through. It gives you a better– When people bring their problems, you’re like, it gives you kind of this fun business school environment of, you know, you can try to understand their situation. Does it apply to me? Give, give your [00:24:00] advice. Um, but I’ll, I’ll caution, at least for me, I didn’t wanna be with the same group for the rest of my life, um, because it gets a little stale.

You kind of already know what somebody’s advice is gonna be for you if you’ve been with, with them in the same group for five years. So, um, that might be the one thing that I would advise, just based on my own personal experiences. I try to do a group for a couple years, um, give value, get value, and then find another group of peers.

Um, I think otherwise you start to stagnate and get stale.

Tim Melanson: I like that. I like that. And so do you find, y- so you find the peer situation is better than h- hiring, like, an actual coach that just works with you one-on-one?

BrianSamson: I do. Um, generally in those peer groups, there is a facilitator that’s probably a little bit more senior, so they can, they can help you get that anyway. But I think with the peer group, you get seven or eight other people that are kind of in a similar [00:25:00] boat, um, to different companies and, you know, that founder… The founder problems are unique, you know? Um, because you can’t really tell your team about what you’re going through. So you need to be able to talk to people that are, like, vested, but not all the way vested, you know? And, and, um, there’s no politics when they give you advice, you know? They’re not trying to protect your, you know, ego or anything.

They’re just like, "Dude, that was a really dumb decision you made, you know? But let me give you some advice on how to get out of it."

Tim Melanson: Oh, that’s great. I, and I agree. Uh, I think when… Th- like, that, that’s a really good way to frame it. With peers, like you say, they’re b- gonna be more frank and more upfront about how they react to you, whereas if you hire a coach, well, there’s some power dynamics going on there, right? And so, uh, and, and then also you also get the benefit of [00:26:00] being the mentor and the mentee, I imagine, at, at certain times, which gives you just a better feel.

You, you learn through teaching as well, right?

BrianSamson: That’s exactly right. Yeah, good, good call out

Tim Melanson: Yeah. That’s awesome. Right on. So now it’s time for your guest solo, so tell me what’s exciting in your business right now

BrianSamson: Yeah, I, I think we’re, um, we’re in a good spot where, like, the wind is in our sails. Um, and I’ve been, I’ve been there a few times, you know, where you just happen to sell the right thing at the right time. Um, um, and I’ve also been in the opposite boat too, you know, where, where you sold the wrong thing at the wrong time.

But, uh, there’s a lot of fatigue right now with labor from Asia. You know, the time zone just becomes grueling. Um, the hierarchy, the culture, whatever. You know, if you’ve ever been, uh, on a customer service call with someone in India or the Philippines, you just know, [00:27:00] and it doesn’t always come out, you know, the way, the way you were hoping.

Um, so all the wind is in the sails right now for Latin America. Um, it’s same time zone. Um, there’s cost savings, creative thinkers, good problem solvers. Um, it’s all, it’s all right there. So the 2020s to me are the decade for Latin America, and, um, I’m really excited to be an ambassador for the region

Tim Melanson: Wow. So tell me a little bit more about what you do then. Like, how, how does that work?

BrianSamson: Yeah, we, um, uh, so I’ve been in the space now for 11 years. Um, and we connect all this great talent in Latin America. So Mexico has been a big, um, you know, manufacturing supply chain factory for the world, especially for America. Um, but Mexico and all these other countries provide great, um, like white-collar talent.

So software [00:28:00] developers, uh, marketing, accounting, bookkeepers, call center, operations, that all exists in spades down there. And there’s no sacrificing time zone. Um, you know, if you wanna get on a call with somebody, the sun’s up at the same time that you’re up as, you know, they’re up, and it’s really easy to work that way

Tim Melanson: Hmm. You know what’s funny is that I, I, I’ve never had anybody on the podcast that has talked about Latin America as a, as a place for outsourcing, which is, seems bizarre to me. You hear about the Philippines a lot, and India, and China, as you mentioned already. You don’t really hear a whole lot about Latin America, but that certainly does make a lot more sense that, that they would be e- you know, a lot closer to us, right?

So I wonder why it’s, hasn’t really been on the radar for most outsourcers.

BrianSamson: Yeah, I think, uh, you know, India has existed, you know, since the dot com boom. [00:29:00] The Philippines were, were really good at the call center, back office, virtual assistant world. Um, and then China’s kind of been the factory for the world, you know, forever. That’s always been the big three, and, um, price has been, I think, in the forefront of people’s minds, um, ’cause you’ll never beat Asia on price.

You know, Asia’s always gonna win there.

Tim Melanson: Right

BrianSamson: I think what people are recognizing, especially CFOs, are there is a cost that they didn’t factor in way back, you know, a few decades ago, and there’s a cost of customer frustration and churn.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

BrianSamson: stuff just, like, breaking. There’s a cost of rework. Um, an India software team is gonna be a lot cheaper than a team in Argentina or Brazil.

Um, but if, uh, the software has to be continually reworked, you know, the, the cost per [00:30:00] labor is much cheaper, but if it takes you an extra four months to get it done, you gotta add the, those extra four months in your overall cost and amortize it. So finally all that stuff is being factored into it, and, and Latin America is more cost-effective overall even if the labor is marginally more expensive than Asia

Tim Melanson: Interesting. Very interesting. So why, so is the education system different and better in

BrianSamson: Uh, I think education is, you know, pretty abundant nowadays, um, you know, with, especially with everything online. Um, but I will say it’s probably more cultural, um, that I think really connects because, you know, in the States we’re a lot more comfortable with horizontal organizations, um, sharing feedback upwards, you know.

Um, I don’t, I don’t agree with [00:31:00] this. Here’s why. Here’s a different idea. Um, you’ll hardly ever see that in Asia, you know, there’s lots of layer hierarchy, but Latin America is much more o- organized towards horizontal work culture. Um, there’s a lot of passion explaining, you know, uh, what they agree with or what they don’t agree with, and here’s why.

And obviously, you know, when you make a decision, everyone will, will rally around that. But until that decision’s made, you know, they’ll, they’ll share their opinion. Um, and I think that’s really important, you know, when you wanna have a collaborative work team

Tim Melanson: I agree. That’s, that’s amazing. So then, are, is there a lot of competition in your area as well for-

BrianSamson: Yeah. Um, I think we’re positioned pretty nicely in that we’re a US company with Latin America infrastructure and team members. And, um, you know, I was an expat in Argentina. Uh, my partner was an expat in Mexico. So we’ve got a lot of first-hand experience [00:32:00] with this. Um, and I think it’s hard to, to match those three things.

You know, we can do US contracts. There’s no crazy international wires, but we’ve got long-term credibility and big candidate databases from our team in Latin America, you know, and we can talk about it first-hand, um, and then handle all the hardware and all the complexities. Uh, very few companies can do all of that, but some do one particular thing pretty well

Tim Melanson: Okay. So then what kind of company or what kind of person would get the most out of working with you then?

BrianSamson: Yeah. Um, I think, uh, small businesses that are maybe just a little bit further along, like, um, I really encourage if you’re going to hire, um, and, and maybe this will even cost me a little bit of money here, but I think it’s important that founders and small business owners try DIY hiring, do-it-yourself hiring [00:33:00] for the first couple.

You kind of understand, you know, more about your own process, what you’re looking for, um, how to manage people, you know, all that. A- and then when you’re ready to scale a little bit, um, that’s where, you know, we come in. Um, because, you know, you won’t, um, you’re gonna get probably better efficiencies, access to a much larger labor pool, shortlisted candidates, don’t worry about compliance or anything like that

Tim Melanson: Okay, that’s awesome. So yeah, you’re kind of like the, the next level. And I think you’re right ’cause, I mean, uh, when you’re first hiring you’re gonna find a lo- you’re gonna find out first of all that you probably don’t have the s- standard operating procedures that you should right? And you’re, you’re like, you know, trying to figure out how to actually even do that.

And so that might be wasted time if you’re going to, if you’re going to a bigger company, right? So when you figure all that stuff out and then you make a couple mistakes, then it might be the right time to go and work with you, right?[00:34:00]

BrianSamson: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Once they’re ready to, you know, scale a little bit or they’re a little bit more, um, buttoned up on their process, we’re, we’re ready. Yeah

Tim Melanson: So what’s the process of working with you then? Like, do they- w- what do they do? Do they go to your website? Do they fill out forms? Do they talk to you? Like, how does that work?

BrianSamson: yeah, yeah. Um, uh, so the important thing is, uh, although it’s, it’s like, um, contract labor, you know, meaning, um, just like, you know, you and I talked about, like the monthly, you know, month-to-month, uh, that’s the same thing that we do. Um, so once they’re, once they’re ready to do that, we don’t charge until we’ve, um, not only found you the candidate that you like and you wanna hire, but they’ve started the work, and then we, then we just send invoices for every hour that they bill, right?

And you’ll just get that on a monthly basis. So it’s really low risk, and we do, um, a lot of intro calls, uh, explain how [00:35:00] Latin America works. Uh, there’s a lot of people I would call nearshore curious or kind of interested in what’s going on in Latin America, but they wanna learn more. Um, that’s where, that’s where we, we do a lot of educational calls.

So yeah, just go to the website, uh, plug, P-L-U-G-G.tech and fill out a Contact Us form

Tim Melanson: That’s awesome. Okay, so there really is not a whole lot of risk. I mean, if you’re at the point where you’re ready to hire and you’ve got your procedures in place, then it’s just a, a quick call, right?

BrianSamson: Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Melanson: to get, things started.

BrianSamson: That’s right. That’s right

Tim Melanson: Right on. Well, that’s awesome. Okay, so before we go, o- one more question.

It’s probably gonna be the hardest one, and, uh, we’re gonna talk a little bit about music. So who is your favorite rockstar or band?

BrianSamson: Uh, I’m, I, I guess I’m a little older school. Um, I could do U2 any day

Tim Melanson: Mm. Right on. Have you ever seen him in concert?

BrianSamson: Yeah, I saw them in San Francisco once. It was a great show

Tim Melanson: Yeah, it, I’ve seen them at least once [00:36:00] now that I think about it. And what a great show. They had such a great stage setup too. Like, it kinda went right out in the audience and stuff. It was so cool.

BrianSamson: It was great. It was really fun

Tim Melanson: Right on. Do you play any music at all?

BrianSamson: I dabbled with guitar, uh, before I had kids, you know, and like every once in a while, but it’s been a while since I really picked it up now

Tim Melanson: Oh, yes. Well, every once in a while it’s nice to pick it up and strum a few chords, right?

BrianSamson: That’s exactly right. Exactly

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for rocking out with me today, Brian. This has been a lot of fun.

BrianSamson: Uh, thank you. Thank you, uh, so much

Tim Melanson: Awesome. To the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information, and we’ll see you next time on the Work at Home Rockstar

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work At Home Rockstar podcast. Today, I am talking to the owner of Melinda Colón Consulting, and she’s also the co-founder of Fortis OBM Proposal Development. So what they do is they help service-based business owners, especially in construction, engineering, and consulting, to secure lucrative government and corporate contracts.

So I’m excited to be rocking out today with Melinda. Hey, Melinda, you ready to rock?

Melinda Colon: Yes, absolutely. Let’s go

Tim Melanson: I love it. So we always start off on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by

Melinda Colon: So when I was in corporate America, the number one thing that I did was what I do now, and it wasn’t sexy. You know how like when you’re doing something for a really long time and someone asks you, "What do you do?" Like, "How do you get the result that you get?" And you’re just like, "I have no idea." Like, it just kind of…

I can’t even track it. I don’t even see that it’s important or valuable. And fast-forward what happens. I open my business, start [00:01:00] working and serving people that needed this service, that this consulting, this strategy to win corporate and government contracts, and I found that this was amazing. Like, small businesses are able to compete with huge giants in the marketplace and, and just transform their life without just burning themselves out

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Isn’t that amazing? It’s, it’s getting to be more and more like that. That’s actually what excites me about even just this podcast, is to inspire more people to see that that is possible now. You can actually be a small business and compete with the big guys nowadays

Melinda Colon: In fact, I, I think honestly, Tim, it’s, it’s a benefit because a, a big business, really think about it, a big business can’t do the branding, the relationship, the connection that a small business can. We have a lot of benefits, and we often overlook them because we’re small, and we’re [00:02:00] in an environment where big matters, like big is the best.

But actually, small is better, more intimate, more connectedness, more relationships. Like, we’re not in a big forum right now. It’s just you and me talking to your community, and it feels really effortless. And someone gets to get value wherever they are, whether it’s at work during their lunch break or driving home, pick up the kids at soccer, even just doing a, a load of laundry at home.

And so what the goal is here is to really build real relationships with real people in real spaces. And at the end of the day, that’s what is so exciting about running a business and having flexibilities. So we’re not really structured or controlled by a cubicle per se. It’s like we get to create our own control

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I agree. Well, I mean, even just think about our own experiences when we go into, we try to contact a company. I mean, how often do we try to talk to somebody? Uh, hey, now it’s even talk to a person, but let alone a person with some decision-making [00:03:00] ability, right?

Melinda Colon: Yeah. I’m waiting for, like, the reCAPTCHA, you know, when you go to a website and it says like, "Are you human?" Like, "Are you a robot?" I’m just waiting for that to roll out on phone because you just don’t know anymore. You don’t, you, you don’t know if you’re talking to a person or not. And so I think that’s another benefit that we have as small businesses is we get to, we get to scale with relationships

Tim Melanson: Yeah. You know what would be funny is that if I, if we could have, like, the reCAPTCHA on our phone so that when a company calls us, "Are you human? you’re human, maybe I’ll talk to you."

Melinda Colon: Exactly. I love it

Tim Melanson: Right on. So now along with the good notes, sometimes there’s some things that don’t go as planned, and I like to talk about those just to make sure that people understand that, you know, things are gonna happen, and that’s normal, and we shouldn’t be scared of that.

That’s no reason to not start your business, right? And I’m wondering, can you share with me some big mistake or something that just didn’t go as planned for you?

Melinda Colon: You know, when I was preparing for this conversation, I was thinking about just like more of like a heroic [00:04:00] story where it was terrible and then it got better like immediately. And I thought to myself, "That’s not real life." And we touched on it a little bit earlier about failure, and failure isn’t real. A- and I’m gonna tell you why.

So when I started my business, it was success from the start, and that’s not common in my type of world, right? Like in consulting, it’s not common for you just to like run once you get started. Um, but I was just using my mastery, something that I had already perf- pr- practiced and perfected nearly, uh, two decades, and just applied it to small businesses.

That’s all I was doing. So it was easier for me to transition. And so that’s a note for anybody that’s listening, is the thing that you might want to do is not far away from what you can start with. And I thought to myself, "Well, I have to start my business and this is the only thing that I can do." And that made me feel really [00:05:00] overwhelmed and stressed.

And so even though we were getting the clients and the retainers and we were making way more money than, you know, a lot of businesses were making, uh, that were at our, you know, at our size and, and age of business, um, I still felt like disconnected from my business, to be honest. And it felt like, gosh, I’m gonna have to work harder.

Like, it doesn’t feel fun. Like, I thought entrepreneurship was going to be fun. Like, where is the fun part? When am I gonna get to that? Well, I took my eye off the ball because I started paying attention to things that I wanted to do in that season, and didn’t understand. This was before I really locked into, um, you know, just understanding business principles and strategy and hiring a coach and being a part of a mastermind.

These are all so important. And what I did is I just kind of said, "You know what? I, I know better. I, I know everything." I didn’t say it like to myself, you know what I [00:06:00] mean? Like I just kind of believed it and I acted in that way. Well, what happened is, as a strategist, I saw a tsunami coming and I ignored it ’cause I thought to myself, "Well, it’s okay."

The… You know, what I built, I really didn’t like it anyway. I don’t, I didn’t appreciate it. I didn’t value it. And just, um, it, it just obviously didn’t happen overnight, but it felt like it did. Um, and so what happened is during a period of time where our retainer clients that were locked in for 12 months paying four to five figures for each retainer suddenly locked out.

They emailed me, called me, said, "Melinda, we can’t pay anymore." And it happened all within 48 hours. And it felt like I failed. Like, "Oh my goodness, what about my team? I have to pay my team, and I gotta pay myself, and who’s gonna pay all these [00:07:00] expenses?" And, well, uh, I mean, how do I move forward? And it felt like failure.

Well, what I learned from that experience is that it wasn’t failure. It was just iterations. It’s kind of like if you’re someone who’s thinking about a gadget or a product, and you have a few iterations. Like, first you have the drawing, and then maybe you get a manufacturer to design it, and then you see it for real, and then it’s like, "Hmm, I wanna change the color.

I don’t like where this piece is landing or how this functions." And then you go and you go through an iteration, another iteration until it gets perfected. And see, that was just a per- that was just an iteration for me. And from that, like someone would say, it was the phoenix, you know, that came from the ashes moment.

Um, but from that it was rebuilding something that I could be proud of and that could be sustainable. And understanding what that was meant that I had [00:08:00] to break my belief of I know everything, I can do it all. I needed to really lean into who is the best at this thing? I will pay them to teach me how to do that thing the way that they do it and actually do it.

And I believe that those are three, three major principles that are so simple, so straightforward, but oftentimes most people don’t do it. Um, I, you know… So I’m sure you can, you know, s- you can relate to that

Tim Melanson: Yeah, definitely. Well, I love, I love that you say iteration. That’s really cool ’cause, because I think, I think that there’s been… There, there’s a lot of iterations that you have to do, especially when just the world changes. And, you know, especially now with, you know, how technology has been moving along. I mean, you know, y- if you think back to even 50, 100 years ago, probably very few of these businesses would’ve [00:09:00] existed the same way.

So how can you not change, right? There, there are, you know, you mentioned the tsunami coming. Yeah, there’s things coming. There are things that are changing, and you gotta adapt to that. And so, but I, I, I like also, you know, you’re mentioning, like isn’t it interesting how if you were to like separate yourself from yourself and give yourself

Melinda Colon: Yeah

Tim Melanson: advice, are you actually taking the business advice that you would give yourself, right?

‘Cause I, I hear you. I, I find sometimes I would like look at things and I go, "I wouldn’t even, I wouldn’t even suggest this to my friend," and here I am doing it ’cause I’m like, "Oh, yeah, no, no, no, I, I know what I’m supposed to do. It’s fine. It’s fine. I’ll, I’ll handle it," right? Isn’t that interesting how that works, eh?

Melinda Colon: Yes, exactly. And it, and I, I don’t, I don’t know where it comes from. I, I wanna blame it on corporate America, but I, I know that it’s deeper than that. And, um, to break away from that is just doing something, just trusting someone [00:10:00] else. It’s a … Honestly, it’s a fear, it’s a fear. It’s fear. It was, it was fear bottled up in, um, you know, I, I guess this identity that just really doesn’t fit me, and I, I knew it didn’t fit me.

I knew it. It, it’s like deep down you just sub- like subconsciously you know that you’re not where you need to be. But environment says, right, like where we live, where we work, um, what we need in terms of financial s- stability, it’s like that says that’s gonna dictate who I am, and that’s very false. Um, that’s not real.

You know, we get to actually, we get to customize our reality. We get to do that. And I know that sounds flowery, but it’s real. It’s true. It’s factual. It has been proven scientifically that we get to design our world. Now, if we get more [00:11:00] people to believe that, can you imagine the type of impact we would have in the world, Tim?

Tim Melanson: I, I agree. I agree. Yeah, and, and I hope that that’s what we’re doing, right? By just, by just going ahead and… ‘Cause I, I do think that we, uh, th- those of us who have, you know, forged this path, we’re sort of lighthouses for the people around us that are looking at us and going like, "Okay, so they’re making it happen.

Okay, well maybe I can make it happen too," right? ‘Cause that’s the thing, is that you see sort of, you know, uh, whatever, somebody on TV or, like, it’s infomercial and you’re like, "That’s not a real person," right? But if you start to see real people in your own life and, and they’re having some success, and whatever that success means to you…

I think that that’s another, another misconception as well, is that people think that success is, like, a million dollars. Well, success can just be having the flexibility to work when you want to work, you know, to be able to, you know, go to your children’s [00:12:00] recitals or whatever it happens to be, right? Just to have that little flexibility.

I mean, w- wouldn’t that be… I mean, i- if you’re working in a job, you, you’re not a millionaire. You’re… Well, you could be.

Melinda Colon: Mm.

Tim Melanson: But you’re probably not. So what’s the difference? Why not have a little bit of flexibility, right?

Melinda Colon: Statistically, yeah, exactly. And, you know, it, it like, it’s the simplest practice. I, I remember my coach had me do this practice. The, it, it honestly took maybe an, 30 minutes to do, but it has transformed the way that I look at money. And I just defined what would it take for me to be comfortable?

Now, we get to define what comfortable is, right? Maybe you wanna be a millionaire. Maybe you’re good with, like, 300K and you’re good. Like, maybe you just need 100K a year. Like, whatever your comfort- comfortable le- like, level is. And then figure out, okay, so if this is what I… This is where we are [00:13:00] comfortable, does that include all the things that I desire to do in my life?

Maybe it’s travel the world. Maybe it’s to invest. Maybe, whatever it is. Like, seeing your kids at the recital, you can’t take those moments back. You can’t get those again. Like, so what does it take? How much does it cost to do those things? Maybe it’s to buy a car or to, you know, learn how to, like, ride a motorcycle.

Like, whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. Whatever it is, just go searching. Just Google. Find out how much it costs. Go to chat, you know, AI and just ask AI, "How much does it cost on average in my area to do this thing?" Start adding it all up. And what happened after I did that, Tim, is that I saw that my number was really easy to get.

I was like, "Oh, wow, okay. So I don’t actually have to work crazy. I don’t have to, like, turn myself inside out or divorce myself from family and friends to [00:14:00] start a business. Like, that doesn’t have to happen. I get to enjoy my life as I’m building a business." And, and honestly, that really just changed the way that I look at money.

And so when people talk about money, and actually just this morning I was calling, I was calling a, um, a service to confirm something, and she told me the total, and I think it was like 2,700 bucks, and she’s like, "Um, it’s 27," it’s like 2714. I’m looking at the receipt right now. And, uh, she, she said to me… I paused.

I didn’t actually say anything. I was actually writing it. And she says, "I know that’s a lot of money." And it kind of just, like, stored in my mind, and I thought, "Wow, she’s telling me about what she thinks about money."

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Melinda Colon: And $2,700 depends on who you’re asking how much

Tim Melanson: what you’re buying.

Melinda Colon: right? Like, it’s all the ROI. It’s like the result. And, and so, um, I thought to myself, "Wow, this is [00:15:00] so powerful." If more people can hear how they talk about… how they hear other people talk about money, right? It’s our environment that we have to change, and then how we talk about money.

Do we say, "Oh man, that’s way too expensive to transform my life forever. Like, 2,700 bucks? Oh my gosh." Like, or are we p- are we actually increasing our value by understanding our value? ‘Cause I, I know that I’m way more valuable than 2,700 bucks.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Melinda Colon: so there, there’s this like… Yeah, go ahead

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, and, and also, like, I, I did… I, I do sort of, like, notice this thing, ’cause when people talk to me in a, in a job or in their corporate careers, as you move up the ladder and you make more and more money, the… it seems as though the stress, time commitment, both of those things end up just increasing exponentially.

So I, I think that there may be some of [00:16:00] that, like, that’s just kind of, like, ingrained in us. ‘Cause, you know, as, uh, you know, I’ve, you know, spoken to so many people who are self-employed here, and that’s not necessarily the case when you’re running your own business. As you make more money, you don’t necessarily spend, like, exponentially more time.

In fact, actually, a lot of times it’s, it’s less time. You end up being more efficient, right? And so I, I think that there’s, like, a bit of a misconception that people will think, "Okay, well, I’m sitting in my corporate job. This is what I make. I’m working around the clock to make this money," and they think, "Okay, well, if I transition into a business, well, what is my life gonna look like?"

And then all this uncertainty. And so they just think it’s so much harder and so much more stressful when first of all, like you said, maybe that number is actually a lot smaller than you actually need. And then on top of that, maybe you can actually work more efficiently to get there, right? ‘Cause your boss decides how much you need to work in order to get that, that paycheck, right?

Y- [00:17:00] you decide how much you need to work for your own paycheck, right?

Melinda Colon: 100%. And that’s exactly, that’s what I, what I used to teach is, um, I used to host these in-person workshops, um, called Business Clarity Breakthrough, and to educate people and say, "They’re, they’re paying you in a job what they’re paying you because that’s what they’re willing to pay you for what you do."

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Melinda Colon: That is not say that is the value of what you do. Because the value… See, any business owner, and this is something that everybody needs to know and understand and, and if you guys know what it is, then gr- just, like, lock in, is any role in your company, whether it’s software, contractors, employees, even yourself, everything has to have a return on investment. There is no such thing as, "I need to pay you your worth." There i- like, it, it’s impossible. But I can [00:18:00] pay you the value that I have defined for that role. So the other things that they’re not paying you for is the software that you need, the computer, the cubicle, the AC, the water, the, the plumbing, the office building.

That is all a c- a, calculated into you in that role. You just don’t, you don’t… It doesn’t go through your bank account, but they’re paying for you to be there. So it, it’s, it’s a completely different thing and, and 100%, the more you, the more you charge on, in your business, the freer you are. You know, when I started doing corporate events, corporate workshops, in-person trainings, it was, I was terrified.

I’m like, "Oh my gosh, how many hours would it take to prepare for this, and how much does it cost to do this and that?" And I mean, I got so many yeses so quickly, Tammy. Just, they [00:19:00] were like, "Yes." Like, I, I didn’t even have to send them a proposal. I’m like, "Wow, this is so easy. I could do this forever." And then my coach was like, "No, you’re charging way little for the biggest return that they’re gonna get.

They’re, they have team members that need to learn what you’re teaching them that will result in millions and billions of dollars. That is not a three or four-figure offer. That is a five to six-figure offer." And I had to get comfortable with that. That it, that… And that’s really, I believe, the unlock, is understanding how to charge premium.

Because we’re not charging premium because that’s, like, what we wanna make. It’s, like, charging premium ’cause that’s the, based off the result that I can deliver and knowing what that result is. And it’s really simple. We just ask the question. We say, "Hey, company," "Hey, business owner," or, "Hey, uh, customer. What would it…

Like, once you have this thing, what would it do for your life? What would you not have to do [00:20:00] anymore? What would-" What type of freedom would you have? And then you’re like, "Oh my gosh, it would help me to do this, this, and this." Then you get to measure your ROI on that, based off that, which is like a, it’s like a fraction but way more than hourly or, you know, competitive-based pricing

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think, I think most of us have, like, this I’m not enough programming in us too that hold us back from… Uh, but that’s one of those things that I think as you start your business, and I’m sure many people experience this, that, you know, you s- you start of going on what you think you’re worth, right?

‘Cause that’s just what you’ve been programmed to do, and then you start looking around and you start seeing these other competitors that are just, just crushing it, and you’re, like, looking at the, at the value that they’re providing. You’re like, "Whoa, I’m so much more than that," and, and, and they’re charging so much more than I’m charging.

And all of a sudden it’s just kind of this wake-up moment that you’re like, "Okay. Well, obviously I’m not charging enough. I need [00:21:00] to, I need to break through this." But it is really, really hard to br- to break that programming that you have ’cause, you know, as soon as someone sort of like pauses, uh, you know, at your price, you’re like, "Oh, but, uh, I can give you a discount," like that kind of thing, right?

Melinda Colon: Yes, yes. It, it, it, it… Uh, I remember, I remember the day my coach just said, um, she’s like, "You’re gonna, gonna increase your retainer to 8,000." It was e- eight, 8,500. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that’s 12 months, over 12 months, 8,500. Oh my gosh, that’s like 8,500 a month?" And she’s like, "Yes." Okay. So she said, "You need to tell them that you’re gonna send them an invoice for that, right?

You’re gonna amend the agreement." Okay, yes, okay. Got on the phone, shaky voice. And she said, "Say it and then shut up." I said, "Okay." So I was like, "It’s 8,500." I held my breath, I looked down like I was writing something, and I was just thinking, "Dear Lord," you know. And they’re like, "Okay, just send us the [00:22:00] invoice." "Absolutely." Hung up. I sent the invoice. And then again, Tam, it came up again. I was just like this anxiety. Asked my husband. I didn’t sleep until they had paid that. I was just like, "Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. They’re gonna say no. They’re gonna realize that they made a mistake. They’re gonna…

Maybe they thought I said e- 850, not 8,500." And, and like all of these things just started, like coming to mind. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. But it, I… If I waited until I was ready, it would’ve never happened. I just needed to do it

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Amazing how that works, right? And then, and then on the other hand, like, uh, I don’t know what your experience is, but what about the people that actually do bark at that price and want you to discount the price? How are they to work with usually?

Melinda Colon: Oh man, it’s the best thing. It’s actually really… It is… What I, w- And then, then, let me talk about when, how it felt the first time I ha- heard that. I remember he said, "Huh. [00:23:00] Oh my gosh, we would never pay that." I remember him saying that. And I said, "Okay, I understand. I appreciate it," da, da, da. I hung up the phone.

It, I didn’t respond or react to it at all. I was just like, "You’re right. I’m not valuable. I will accept your, what you say that I am." You know? And it’s like I’m not even selling me, I’m selling the transformation, I’m selling the service, right? So I, it, I had to mature through that. And now I see this as the best thing ever because everybody is trying to figure out what’s in the mind of the buyer.

And I have so many saying, "I will never pay that." I should have said, and I wish I would’ve said that, but you know, it’s okay, I can move forward, is, "Man, tell me why." What, what do you think that, like… What, oh, I understand. Like, so you would never pay for this. Why? Here’s the thing, like, they’re gonna tell you.[00:24:00]

They’re going to tell you why. "Well, because blah, blah, blah." Oh, I understand, and I could have transitioned that into marketing research and even closed the sale. I could have closed the sale, because once I helped him understand what he was actually getting versus just something on a proposal, which by the way, please don’t ever send a proposal blindly.

In fact, get on the phone with them, get in Zoom, and like go through proposals with, with them together. And if they ask you to send the proposal, especially for corporate clients, if they ask for, "Oh, just send me the proposal," actually I would be more comfortable to get on the phone. Like, can we go ahead and schedule a time for us to go through it together so that I can answer your questions in real time?

If there’s anybody else that needs to make a decision, please en- you know, let me know and I can add them to that Zoom li- or that calendar invite. I don’t send proposals anymore. Because what happens is they make their own justification, [00:25:00] and then they delay making decisions, and then it slows down the entire sales pipeline.

So when someone gives an objection, this is what it’s called, it’s like they’re rejecting it. They’re like, "Oh, well, what about this? What about this? What about this?" I actually see this as an opportunity to learn more about my audience, and if I can find out what they believe, what they’re believing is way more valuable than what I believe.

Because if they, if I understand what they believe, if I understood he, you know, now it’s just like I, I really don’t know what he was believing. But if he believed, for example, that I can get it cheaper or I can just hire someone as an employee to do it, absolutely. Hire someone to do it. And you know what?

Guaranteed it’s gonna, it’s gonna cost more than eight hun- $8,500 a month. Well, no, ’cause I just, the salary is… Well, overhead expenses, health benefits, um, and then onboarding. [00:26:00] That’s expensive. At least a corporate, a small business corporation of 50 plus invests about, um, 5

to $10,000 per employee on, during onboarding, not including benefits or salary or tools or softwares or anything. So 100% go hire someone or hire a consultant. Where here in the United States, I’m not sure about Canada, you probably could speak on that, is here in the United States it’s a tax write-off.

Tim Melanson: Yep

Melinda Colon: So you’re really actually not paying anything.

So then it’s not really 8,500. Correct.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Melinda Colon: It’s not something you need to concern yourself with. It doesn’t hurt your bottom line, doesn’t impact you in any way. But these are all things that we get to talk about in a Zoom call and record that Zoom call, and that way you can actually create marketing content and hit those objections ahead of time [00:27:00] before it comes up, and man, you’re gonna be a rock star

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, and, and I mean, when it comes down to it too, the people that, number one, I mean, there was two… I guess there’s probably two main reasons why someone might not want to hire you at that rate. One is because they don’t actually want what it is that you’re, that, that you’re offering.

Maybe they don’t need it as much as they thought they might. Maybe they’re just shopping around and they’re like, "Okay, well that’s not in my budget right now," so no problem. That just is what it is. Or they’re, like, really difficult clients to work with. ‘Cause that happens as well too. I find the ones that, like, lowball you and stuff like that are the hardest to work with versus the ones that just wanna pay your, your, your price are so much easier, right?

Melinda Colon: Oh, no, 100%. Like, if someone comes circled, you know, "No, I don’t wanna pay for 85, I wanna pay 35. Would you be okay with 35?" I’d say, "No, absolutely I don’t think it’s gonna be the right fit." Absolutely, like, those are people that I don’t even entertain. [00:28:00] Um, or honestly, now I don’t even get to the point where I share the investment, uh, ’cause, you know, my investments are a lot larger than 8,500.

So I actually interview them as much as they’re interviewing me. I’m qualifying them to make sure that they’re gonna be the right fit because I’ve learned not all money is good money. I, I know that’s a cliche, but it’s real. It can really, you know, one rotten apple spoils a bunch. It’s true. I’ve, I’ve… You know, my team members have experienced it and, you know, it’s 100%,

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And from the, uh, from the client perspective too, they, I mean, they, um, they… Well, like what you said earlier, they likely know what it’s worth, and so when you give that price, I mean, the funny thing is that if your price is too low, that’s gonna raise alarms for them. They’re gonna be like, "Eh, they don’t really know what they’re doing," right?

Whereas if you come right in, like, uh, at where [00:29:00] it should be, they’re, they’re more likely to go, "Yep, we know that that’s that cost. We know that that we’re, kind of value we’re getting for that," and they’re, they’re up for that, right?

Melinda Colon: I challenge that, that second one because I think it’s about packaging. Um, I think it’s about experience and packaging. You know, it… Of course, you know, i- if I’m gonna help business unlock a revenue stream of 100 million and I go in with a million-dollar investment, it, it’s gonna be hard to digest because it’s not packaged properly.

Um, but there are ways to package it so that it is equates to a million dollars if that’s a, if that’s the true result that I’m getting for them. So it could be, um, you know, a partial, uh, commission stan- state or, you know, like half front or… It’s just these are all like deal-making strategies. But what I had to divorce myself from is believing that there’s a limit to [00:30:00] how much someone would pay me for.

And it, because if I put a limit to how much someone will pay me, then I’m putting a limit to how much value that I offer, and I, I have unlimited value for people.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Melinda Colon: It’s just a matter of like what they need and just delivering on what that is with integrity

Tim Melanson: Wow, right on. Wow, time flies. Hey, let’s get into your guest solo. Tell me what’s exciting in your business right now

Melinda Colon: Oh man. So, okay, um, gosh, it’s the, it’s the transformation. It’s adding a revenue stream to existing businesses, and even helping people who want to buy a business add a government contract, a revenue stream. And it doesn’t matter where you live, um, e- even in Canada, there are contracts, um, with, uh, you know, in govern- in government.

Um, but they’re, they’re just everywhere. There’s opportunities everywhere, and it doesn’t require you to leave your home. So I’m excited to serve people in that way, just to [00:31:00] kind of stabilize their business so that they can have more freedom to do whatever they want

Tim Melanson: So what would, uh, a norm, like someone who’s gonna get the most out of working with, uh, what, what do they look like? Like what, what situation are they in where they’re like, "Okay, I really need Melinda right now"?

Melinda Colon: They’re a subject matter expert who has experience delivering on results in a service business, whether it’s yours, whatever you can list on your resume or your existing business. And we just work with you to find opportunities that are gonna be the best fit for your business based off your business plan, and make sure that it works strategically so that you can, you know, get the result that you want, which is usually more freedom, more time, uh, more money to invest or to stabilize business.

Delegate is huge for our clients, that they wanna delegate so they, they’re not the go-to for everything. So that’s how we do that, and we help them do that.

Tim Melanson: Okay. So what [00:32:00] kinds of services do you help them with? Like, are you more like a coach or a matchmaker? Like, what, what is it you do?

Melinda Colon: So I help people stay, I help people install a revenue stream of government contracts to their business. So while the industry is volatile, government contracting is consistent and predictable. so sometimes we need that predictability to, you know, plan our life past a month, right?

Tim Melanson: Right. Okay, that’s excellent. So really it’s, uh, you’re more or less a subject matter expert on those more stable contracts rather than, you know, what they’re probably doing right now, which is going out and getting, you know, business-to-business contracts probably at the, at the moment, right?

Melinda Colon: Well, business to business is actually great. It keeps you as an authority and an, and an industry expert in the, in the eyes of a government agency. Um, so you do want both. I don’t recommend doing one or the other. I do recommend having [00:33:00] both, ’cause they serve each other. So, um, if that makes sense. Private now serves government, and it looks like, wow, you can work with a government agency?

You can pretty much do anything, ’cause your business has to be structured, it has to be stable. It’s like, that’s the perception people have. And of course, that’s attractive to other s- businesses that are thinking, "I’m not sure if you actually do what you say you do."

Tim Melanson: Hmm

Melinda Colon: so that’s one. And then on the government side or the public sector side, it shows as you’re an authority ahead of what the government is doing, because they’re looking for industry experts all the time, especially right now as things are just transforming and evolving with AI.

They want real people to help them with the problems they have. And you, Tim, you would not believe the problems that they have are things that we dealt with five years ago. Like, they’re still trying to figure it out, ’cause government is always going to be behind, and that’s a benefit to a small business owner [00:34:00] when you can say, "We have gone through this.

We’ve helped our clients through it, and here’s our case studies. Here’s one after another after another," and educate them on how to source those contracts, how to hire the vendors, what, what the work needs to actually look for, and then ob- obviously, ultimately, um, getting award of the contract itself

Tim Melanson: I love that. And so the process of working with you, I think you mentioned that you, you’re gonna get on a call with them and that

Melinda Colon: Yeah. Yeah, so the first thing is if, if anybody’s interested, you can find me on LinkedIn, just Melinda Colón. You can see my beautiful face, um, on there. And, um, and once we connect and you would apply f- to schedule a call with me, ’cause we don’t take everyone, we, we do give you guidance and direction wherever you’re at.

But for those that are qualified to have a conversation, we would take it to the next step, talk through your business plan, your goals for your business, and then help you develop a strategy to install government contracts [00:35:00] into your business plan. This is about helping you get to your goal, not changing your goal

Tim Melanson: love that. That’s great. And so LinkedIn is the best way for them to contact you then?

Melinda Colon: Yes.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. That’s great. So now one more question. Let’s get into s- a little bit of music. Like, who is your favorite rock star or band?

Melinda Colon: Rockstar? Oh, man. Or band. Okay, I’m gonna say band, and Oh my gosh, should I say this aloud? Um,

Tim Melanson: not?

Melinda Colon: um, oh gosh, what am I gonna say? I’m gonna say AC/DC.

Tim Melanson: Really? Awesome. Awesome. You’re like The Rock.

Melinda Colon: Yeah. It’s great music to listen to just to kinda like get stuff done. Yeah

Tim Melanson: Have you ever seen them in concert?

Melinda Colon: I haven’t, no.

Tim Melanson: No? No. I missed out on [00:36:00] it too, ’cause they did come to my city and I, uh, I, I just qu- wasn’t able to go. It’s too bad. They would be such a high energy show, right?

Melinda Colon: Yes, and like, that’s why I love it, is it gets you moving. Yeah

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Melinda, for rocking out with me today. This has been a ton of fun

Melinda Colon: This is fun. Thank you so much for having me, Tim

Tim Melanson: Awesome. And to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information, and we’ll see you next time on the Work at Home Rockstar podcast

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast. Very excited for today’s episode. We are talking to the CEO. She’s a business coach and outsourcing specialist for Six Figure Business Coaching, and what she does is she helps service-based entrepreneurs to simplify and scale their business by combining coaching, financial clarity, and strategic outsourcing.

Super excited to be talking to Kirsten Graham. Hey, Kirsten, you ready to rock?

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely, Tim. Thank you so much for having me today

Tim Melanson: That’s great. So we always start off with a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely. So my background is real estate. I sold real estate, I moved to the mortgage side, I went on to own a mortgage company and a title company. And while I did a lot of loans for self-employed people, I would see their business tax returns and their personal tax returns, and then they would always take me to lunch to pick my brain.

So I mentored business owners for about a decade, and then I decided to start taking paid c- coaching clients. And the reason why I wanted to share that story with [00:01:00] your audience today is because sometimes you’re doing something at your job that could end up turning into a business. So always keep your eyes open for that opportunity, because I thought I would live and die in the real estate industry.

I had zero thought. Like, I, I never … the thought never crossed my mind to become a business coach. And because I just mentored people and helped them whenever I could, it eventually turned into a paid business, and that was really exciting because in … You know, we survived 2008, which wasn’t easy. We got beat up quite badly.

But, you know, my mom was terminally ill in 2013, and at that point, I’d taken on enough coaching clients that I was able to say, "I’m finished, um, with the mortgage industry and I wanna spend the next six months or eight months or however long she has with her." And because I’d already taken on those coaching clients, I was able to do that, and that

But it led me down a totally different path and [00:02:00] I’m very excited that I, you know, took the step to move forward, even though I had a business, actually kind of taking on a second business, which was the coaching, because it just made sense. So for all of you out there that maybe you’re, you’re still working a job and you wanna work for yourself, you have skills that you’ve developed in your career and you probably have people asking you for help.

There’s a way to turn that into a business

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I’m really glad you mentioned that ’cause that, that is something that, uh, I mean, we all have something that someone picks our brains about, right? And, and the funny thing about it is that you were doing it for free ’cause you like doing it, you like helping people, and, and that’s the… You know what?

We, we talk about that quite a bit on the, on the podcast, especially when it comes to, like, music and stuff ’cause I think people have a hard time charging money for the thing that they like to do for free.

Kirsten Graham: Yes.

Tim Melanson: Do you find that? Is that a weird thing that we have?

Kirsten Graham: No, no, because it comes so naturally to you that you forget that it’s a challenge for someone else. So you know, for example, a lot of [00:03:00] business owners, they, they don’t enjoy bookkeeping, but it’s hard for us to imagine that there are people who actually that’s their jam. They love doing that, right?

Or if we hate things like technology and video editing and stuff like that, it’s hard to imagine because it’s not our unique ability, it doesn’t come easy to us, sometimes it’s hard to imagine that other people actually love doing that. And it’s… For us, when something comes easy for us, we sometimes think, "Well, why would anybody pay me for this?

It’s so easy. Can’t everybody do this?" And that’s not the case

Tim Melanson: Yeah, exactly. And, and the, the, I think there are certain things that everybody knows is not easy for every- for everybody else, like the math stuff. You can be like, "Yeah, okay, I get it. Not everybody likes that." But there might be something in your business that you are, just think is very easy, like you just said, but isn’t obvious that it’s not, it’s not easy for everybody, right?

Um, and, and that’s the, that’s the gold right there, ’cause that’s the thing that people are happy to pay for ’cause they just don’t wanna do it, right?

Kirsten Graham: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so if you’re thinking about, [00:04:00] just start tracking when people ask you questions. You know, what are they asking you about? What do people come to you for? Because you’re kind of an expert in it, not that you call yourself that. You know, it’s just friends or family or people you know, clients or they come to you and ask you certain things.

And if you find out that that is a unique ability, then do some research and figure out could you turn that into a business and would you enjoy doing that as a business? Or maybe you already have a business, but you haven’t thought about bringing that element into it

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, we can get back into that a little bit later. Uh, but before we do, let’s talk a little bit about the bad note. So what is something… Hey, not everything goes as planned, right? There are some certain things that don’t go as planned, and that seems to be the thing that keeps people out of it, out of the game.

They’re thinking, "Ah, you know, it’s not gonna work out the way I want it to. What if I fail?" I, I’d just like to talk about it because we all get those things, and we’re still here, right? So it can still work out for you even though you make mistakes. So I’m wondering, can you share with me one of those mistakes?

Kirsten Graham: Sure, sure. So one of my clients from [00:05:00] my mortgage company was Jeannie Wilson, who’s now my business partner, and she was one of those people that I mentored. And she was at the time building an agency, so this is back… I’m gonna age us really quickly. This is back when Facebook first had fan pages.

Tim Melanson: Oh.

Kirsten Graham: And, you know, at this point local businesses had websites resistantly, but they, they knew nothing about LinkedIn or they thought it was a resume site or email marketing or blogging.

Those things were very prevalent online, but not within local businesses. And so she was starting a digital marketing agency, so you’re kind of swimming upstream because people don’t really know what you’re doing.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Kirsten Graham: so she ended up hosting some classes that taught people about, you know, how to use LinkedIn for business and networking.

You know, what, why should you blog? Why should you add a blog to your website at least once a month, ideally every week? Um, email marketing. What is email marketing and how do you use it? So she hosted some classes, filled the classes because people were interested, but what happened next was she ended up getting really busy really fast.[00:06:00]

And so I said to her, "I’ve read about outsourcing overseas. Would you like to try this?" And I still have my mortgage company, and I’ve got a huge team, uh, all in the States, but we decided to start outsourcing for her digital marketing agency. And she said, "I’ll do it if you’ll help me." So this is before Zoom.

It’s before WhatsApp. I mean, this was back, very old school. And so we kind of found everything we could research to find on outsourcing, and we went down that, that road of helping her hire website, um, developers, people who could create profiles on LinkedIn and fan, Facebook fan pages because business owners didn’t even wanna create their own profiles back then.

Or could blog or set up the blogs once she had written them and things like that. I like to say we’re either we’re stubborn a- and stupid probably in a lot of ways because it went wrong, it went wrong. I mean, it, it went wrong every way it could go wrong. So we had, you know, you have people that don’t show up and do a good job with the project or [00:07:00] you learn that you’ve hired the wrong person because they weren’t honest about the skills that they had.

You know, or one person’s been working for you a while and asked, "Hey, I’ve had a family emergency. Could you pay me early?" And that happened, and then he vanished, right? So it was definitely a learning curve, and we kind of joke looking back that it’s surprising that we stuck with it. But it was one of those things where no one else that we knew was doing it, so we didn’t really have anyone to go to to ask questions.

So it really was white-knuckling it and figuring it out. But Jeanne went on to build a successful digital marketing agency with that process, and then we went on to partner to help other people learn how to outsource, um, because we just realized it can change, it can change a person’s business when you get the support in your business you need.

But it, it, yeah, if, if you think you’re gonna start a business and everything’s gonna be easy, it’s not, right? But sometimes you just have to realize that even though you don’t have a skill right now, you can develop that skill. You [00:08:00] know, as far as interviewing goes, like m- myself and our team, we have it dialed in.

We very seldom have a bad hire anymore, and I will have to say until, um, the pandemic. And what happened was we had… I guess there were people teaching r- people in the Philippines or in India how to become virtual assistants, like how to interview to be a virtual assistant. Not know how to do the skills, but how to interview for the job.

And so we got caught with two, two bad hires, and I was like, "How the heck did this happen?" Like, we haven’t had a bad hire in years. And, um, so I was finally able to talk with one of them and like you said, these were the skills you had. You know, so I was able to get out of that person that they had gone through a program that taught them, told them how to interview,

Tim Melanson: Wow

Kirsten Graham: right?

Yeah. And so, so that was a… Again, it’s always a learning curve. I don’t think… That’s the other thing that’s exciting about owning your own business is every day things are evolving and changing, and you’re always learning. And just have faith that you have the ability to learn new [00:09:00] things and to do hard things.

Um, and at the, at the end, it always pays off.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. It does pay off if you stick with it, right? And sometimes if you have some help, right?

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely

Tim Melanson: But I mean, that, that’s the thing is that, is that like you say, that you, you’re gonna learn. I mean, they, all these things are gonna happen, and then you’re gonna, you’re gonna move forward. And a- I mean, what’s the other alternative?

You’re, you’re, you’re sitting in a company maybe that you’re not super excited about. I know the thing that, that I dreaded the most about going to a job was just not having that control and that excitement. And I know for me, like, those problems and those things that don’t go well, yes, they suck at the time, but they’re exciting when you figure them out, right?

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely. And I love the joke that, um, an entrepreneur is the only person that will quit a 40-hour a week job to work 80 hours a week for themselves.

Tim Melanson: Yes

Kirsten Graham: Because you just don’t… When you start your business, you don’t think about that window of time that you spend [00:10:00] learning new things. You know, especially like right now we’ve got AI on the scene, you know, and that’s the past five or six years with that has been amazing, but you’re still in a constant learning mode.

So it, it is a matter of understanding that if you love to learn and you’re excited about learning, then s- working for yourself is definitely the way to go.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I think it, like, I think when it comes down to it, like, if you’re the type of person that is very prideful about the work that you’re putting out there, like you want it to be really good and y- you wanna do a great job, a- that to me, and I- it’s just maybe my experience, in a corporate setting, you’re getting paid the same as the guy sitting right next to you that is doing hardly anything.

So I mean, if you’re the type of person that just like, "I just need to get this done right," you’re not gonna succeed in a, in a corporate environment. It’s, it’s gonna be very, very difficult. But now all, all of a sudden if you’re working for yourself, well, now the better you get at what you do, the more you can deliver within the same amount of [00:11:00] time, the more money you make.

Now you can take on another client, right? So it’s, it- it’s just a, a personality thing, I think, and I think a lot of people don’t, um, they, they, they wanna clock in, clock out, and they just wanna, you know, be there and do that thing and not have a bunch, a bunch of stress. Well, that’s probably not gonna work out so well if you’re self-employed, right?

Kirsten Graham: Yeah, no. Yeah, uh, uh, you know, I, I, like you, believe that h- owning your own business is, is amazing. But I do accept that there are some people who enjoy being in corporate America. They enjoy that climbing that corporate ladder. Because there are, on the flip side of this with working from home, it can be isolating and you can feel alone at times, and sometimes it can be challenging to figure out things on your own, which why- is why I think it’s so important to build community of other entrepreneurs that you have somebody to bounce things off of.

But yeah, if you’re that type of person who loves challenges, wants to make more money for what you’re doing, and just, you know, you wanna help other people… I think that’s the other thing. People who are self-employed, they have a huge desire [00:12:00] to help people. And I think sometimes in a corporation you don’t always get to see the, the ultimate outcome of what you do and how it affects someone.

But when you’re self-employed, you do

Tim Melanson: Yeah, I could tell you a bunch of stories about that, but we don’t have time. But, uh, but, uh, the other thing about it too is that, I mean, hey, the, we could talk about the band, we could take that in so many different directions. Uh, one of those directions just to start off here would be that, um, i- if, if you’re the person that is the, the entrepreneur, you’re the person that likes to fix all these problems and all that stuff, it’s also super helpful to have somebody on your team that is not that person, that just wants to be, uh, you know, have really clear direction and they, uh, need to know what they, what they’re doing that day.

You know, that can be the st- the person in your band. You know, they don’t have to be working for a multinational company. They could be working for a small business like you and me and, and, and getting what they want, you know, in, in that kind of atmosphere, right?

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely. Yeah. I think the people who are willing to work for smaller companies in the States, you know, I have lots of great people who work for my [00:13:00] mortgage company and my title company. You know, those people contribute so much to the success of the business. They contribute so much to the community.

Um, yeah, so a lot of people would rather be part of a smaller business and see it grow and be a part of that growth and have, again, see the tangible results of what they’re doing rather than sometimes being in a very large corporation

Tim Melanson: That’s, and that’s true too, yeah. You, you’re more likely to see, you know, the full scale of what you’re doing in a sm- in a small company than you are in a big company. I used to work in a very big company, and like you said, I, I did not … I, I was on this little, little piece of this puzzle, and I never, I never saw what it was doing, right?

And

Kirsten Graham: the full picture

Tim Melanson: yeah, and, and that can be … I, I don’t know. I, I guess, like, like we’re saying, I mean, everybody’s different, but for me it was demoralizing in a way. Uh, you know, it was just like I, I like to see what my work is doing. Like, I like to see somebody that says, "Great job," and, "This really helped me." Like, I … It, it, it works for me, right?

Kirsten Graham: Yes. Yes[00:14:00]

Tim Melanson: So, um, now let’s talk a little bit about … Okay, so when you mentioned earlier, you know, I mean, you were doing some business coaching on the side. So yeah, um, for me, my bes- first business was basically tech support, fixing computers. Because as I was working for my programming company, I loved fixing problems and troubleshooting things.

"Hey, my computer’s acting weird," and I would love doing that, and so that ended up being my first job. Um, or, sorry, first business. Figuring out how to price it though, and figuring out how to, like, that was really difficult. Do you have any tips on how to make sure that you’re making enough money? Like, should you just charge your hourly rate that you work at your company?

Like, how does all that work?

Kirsten Graham: Sure. Yeah, so w- because we, we, we specialize in virtual assistants, and one of the types of virtual assistants we specialize in are bookkeeping VAs, um, because it’s a lot more affordable than hiring someone locally, and I hire bookkeepers for large CPA firms and larger bookkeeping companies. So they’re already outsourcing it, so [00:15:00] we’re, we’re kind of brought that concept to the small business owner who needs the most support but doesn’t necessarily think they can afford it.

So I would say what I find with people who finally get their bookkeeping in order, um, they start to realize their pricing doesn’t work. So you need to have a structure or a strategy around pricing, but a lot of times, you know, you wanna help someone, so you wanna make sure the price is affordable, or you really need that sale, so you want it to be affordable.

But I think the number one thing that helps people to build successful businesses is a solid financial foundation, and that comes from having your bookkeeping up to date, reviewing your profit and loss statement with your bookkeeper each month, understanding your cashflow, because that’s one of the things we see all the time.

When people get that in order, the first thing they say is, "Oh my gosh, I am undercharging," or, "I cannot afford to even offer this service anymore because I can’t charge what it would be worth."

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Kirsten Graham: So when you really understand your financials, you know, you have that CFO hat on, it makes pricing your [00:16:00] offers a lot easier

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, because it’s, uh, I, back to the, just the way that we think, right? I mean, you look at this hourly rate and you’re thinking, "Okay, well, my job I was making, you know, X amount of dollars per hour." So, you know, y- you feel like if you’re charging double or triple that, that you’re ripping someone, uh, somebody off.

But, but the thing is, is that there’s a lot of things in your business, I, I remember talking about this, y- you know, you, y- y- you, you, you, you start your own business because, "Oh, I’m really good at this thing, so I’m gonna start charging for that." And then you realize that you spend, like, what? 20% of your time doing that thing, and there’s, like, all this other stuff you have to do to run your business.

That has to get charged out, too, right? So you have to work that in to, to the whole, to the whole puzzle. And, and how do you do that, right?

Kirsten Graham: Yeah, I think the main thing, again, it’s gonna go back to understanding your financials. And, you know, if you started a business and you didn’t necessarily have a ton of accounting classes, or you’re a very creative person and you feel like, you know, math isn’t your thing,

Tim Melanson: Yeah[00:17:00]

Kirsten Graham: understand that… A- and I do get this because, you know, I’ve had so many people tell me that their CPA talked down to them, or every time they asked a question they were made to feel stupid, or, you know, th- they, they hired a bookkeeper, but they couldn’t afford it any longer.

So because there’s just this really, there’s a lot of shame and guilt around money, and a lot of stress around money, but that’s the number one thing I think you have to master, and realize you don’t have to do it alone. Like I said, there are people out there, crazy people out there that love bookkeeping.

Like, that’s their jam, that’s their superpower. So learning to lean into people who have skills that you don’t always have, because someone can help you really understand your numbers, and that person can really help you make good decisions. So whether, again, it’s around pricing or looking at some of the things that you’re doing.

Does it make more sense to outsource this so that I can work with more clients? It’s all a numbers game, right? Whether it’s sales or pricing. But a- again, for a lot of people, there can be shame, [00:18:00] guilt, stress around money, and that, I think that’s the biggest challenge. I don’t think it’s always… I think some of it’s on more on a subconscious level, and yet you do forget all the things that you have to do to keep the business running, not just getting paid for the hours that you’re actually working.

And which is a different con-

Tim Melanson: Well, I mean, on that note, I mean, it, it’s just a sort of an observation that I’ve noticed is that the, the, the accounting, the money, the numbers, the, even the tech support, all those things are very left brain, and they’re very, like, non-emotional. And the people that tend… I mean, you, you, you see the movies, right?

The tech guy. He tends to be a total jerk, like talking down to you about, "Oh, it’s just so stupid." And, and, and based on what you te- said earlier, I mean, to them it’s easy, so they can’t understand how you can’t understand. It’s just numbers, right? That kind of thing. And so they tend to talk down to you.

Like, and, and, I mean, a bad teacher in, in, in school can really affect how you think about a topic. And like you said, I do think that that’s true, that a lot [00:19:00] of the reason why we don’t like math or we don’t like numbers is because of the arrogant person that taught it to us in the first place and made us feel stupid for not understanding it immediately, right?

Kirsten Graham: Well, and when I look at y- y- it all goes back to math. So let’s say in the example of the bookkeepers, our bookkeeping virtual assistants are $9 an hour. They work directly with the client. You have to ask yourself, if you’ve got this pile of receipts, and you’ve got all of this stuff that needs to be done, and you’re not really sure where your money’s going, and you’re not really sure how you should price your services, then that’s eating away at your confidence.

It’s causing you a lot of stress and anxiety. And as an entrepreneur, you need to be confident. Not arrogant, but confident. But if you aren’t doing things in your business that you know you should be doing, it erodes your confidence. So being able to have someone do that for you at a very affordable rate…

So my question is, if you paid someone $6 an hour or $9 an hour to do something else for you, could you free up time and go make more money? And that’s [00:20:00] the power of outsourcing that people don’t see. You’re, you’re spending money at a very, very cost-effective rate to be able to go and bill your hourly rate working with more clients or improving things in your business that can make you more money in the long term, whether it’s rolling out a new product or service.

So that’s, that’s also something that I think the people who need the help the most, they overlook that because maybe they think they can’t afford it,

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Kirsten Graham: or they, or they feel like they’re not… Because I don’t know how to do my own bookkeeping or whatever it is we’re talking about, they feel like they can’t outsource it.

And so that’s, that’s a challenge. But your time is your most valuable asset as an entrepreneur, your time. You can make more money. You could lose it all today and make more tomorrow, right? But if you don’t value your time and find, one, systems and processes, two, get the support you deserve in your business by hiring people to do the things you don’t like to do or that you’ve just run out of time to do, then you’re, you’re trapping your…

You’re, you’ve created your [00:21:00] own glass ceiling. You know, in corporate, it’s like they hit the glass ceiling. A lot of entrepreneurs, they build their own glass ceiling

Tim Melanson: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think a- an- another block too, ’cause I, I think that there is the, you know, "I can’t afford it, I can’t afford to outsource," uh, but also there’s probably a lot of even embarrassment of, like, letting somebody see how bad you are with money type of thing, right? And you might be like, "Okay, well how do I trust this person to come into my business for $9 an hour," like you say, "and they’re gonna magically do all this stuff that I can’t figure out myself?"

Like, I, I think there might be this, like, little circular pattern going on. Like, h- how do you get somebody to let you in, right, to that area?

Kirsten Graham: Okay, right. So yeah, so Tim, what we’ve done is we’re not an outsourcing agency, so we provide a program. So I’m not, I’m not trying to sell you guys, but I’m telling you how, how this

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Kirsten Graham: because exactly what you said. So people come into our program, we teach them about the different types of bookkeeping software.

We teach them cultural differences, what it’s like to [00:22:00] manage someone and lead tasks for someone overseas. We talk to them about security, all the things that they wanna know. Write-offs. So many small businesses are leaving money on the table because they don’t know all the things that they can write off.

So we go through this in a very, um, easy digestible way, and then when the client is ready, they pick their software, they fill out a form, and then we pair them with a bookkeeper that we’ve already interviewed and vetted, and there’s… They’ve gone through our success training portal, so they’re, they’re awesome.

We pair them, and now that bookkeeper works directly for that client, and that client pays that bookkeeper directly because we really wanna empower people to start to build their team. And in most cases, most smaller businesses don’t usually have more to, more than three to five hours of bookkeeping a month.

Um, once they’re caught up, we’ve had a lot of clients that have been behind two or three years in bookkeeping, and we, we say we’re a no judgment zone, right? So that bookkeeper doesn’t care if they’re going back and cleaning up two years of, of bookkeeping for you, or they’re starting fresh today. [00:23:00] They have zero emotion to it.

They’re just gonna get in there and do their job, and they’re gonna do it well so that you don’t have to stress over it. So yeah, that can be a challenge, is figuring out how to hire the right person, which is why we do the things the way we do them. But again, when it comes to outsourcing, it, it’s… Even hiring someone locally I think can be challenging, right?

Because again, it’s the same thing, and there’s lots of awesome, wonderful local bookkeepers. Um, but again, at that, we have had a couple people that have said, you know, it is less embarrassing to be working with someone halfway around the world than maybe working with someone that you might see out networking.

I, I get that, too.

Tim Melanson: does make sense. Yeah, if you see them a- around or if you end up finding out that they’re friends with your friends, right? You’re like, "Ugh, this is awkward." Yeah

Kirsten Graham: So I think outsourcing took away a little bit of that, which was awesome. But, you know, it’s so funny to see people, once they really, you know, have their monthly meeting with their bookkeeping VA and they see that they [00:24:00] can start a- they can ask questions and they’re not made to feel stupid.

You know, it might take them six months before they fully understand their profit and loss statement, but that’s okay. In six months they know something that they didn’t know now, and they’ve got a whole new skill set. They’ve got a whole new vocabulary when it comes to talking to their CPA. So yeah, it, it’s just empowering people to understand that there are lots of different ways to do things, but outsourcing is one of the things that there’s multiple ways.

You could hire yourself, you could go through an outsourcing agency, you could work with someone like us. But there are lots of tools and availa- of people available to help you

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Well, let’s talk a little bit about the tools then. So what tools or, you know, instruments do you use in your business to get success?

Kirsten Graham: Yeah, so we’re huge fans of, of GoHighLevel. I don’t know if you’re familiar with

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Kirsten Graham: So we started using that years ago, and it was a funny story because Jeannie and I kept looking at it. It looked too good to be true, ’cause we were spending so much money, and we had all these other softwares and they didn’t talk to each other.

And we [00:25:00] actually ended up getting on a call with Sean, one of the owners, and we actually talked to him about the software, and then we ended up meeting with him again because we wanted to know, like, "What’s your intention? What’s your intention with our daughter? What’s your intention with this software?

Do you plan on building it and then just selling it to HubSpot or somebody that’s gonna s- you know, just squash it?" And we really believe that he was committed to keeping the software, so we moved everything over. This was back before it was easy to do, so it took us, like, six months to move all of our funnels and all the things.

But once we got up and running on that, we fell in love with it. So that is one of our primary tools. We actually went on to white label a version of HighLevel, and we also have software virtual assistants. Because I feel like a tool for people is, like, the foundation of how you grow your business. So definitely having a great CRM, having structure to help you manage your time is really important, and being able to manage con- connecting with your, with your prospects and your clients is, is very important.

The other thing we use is we use Trello a lot. We have a large team, so we lean into Trello for managing tasks. [00:26:00] We believe you lead people and you manage task, and so that’s where project management software… Trello’s free to use. If you haven’t used it, there’s lots of great videos on, on YouTube to watch, but it’s a great tool to help you manage projects.

One of the ways that Jeannie and I use it as a partnership is we have, like, a 2026, and we have Q1, January, February, March. We have Q2. So we have it lined out, because as business owners, we can get really excited about something. You know, we kinda have shiny object syndrome.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Kirsten Graham: So if we, if something, an opportunity or something comes along the way and we’re like, "Oh my gosh, this could be so cool to do," we create a card on our board, and then we look at our calendar and we think, "Well, where will we actually be able to do it?

We can’t do it in March ’cause this is already booked. Let’s put it in the Q2 column, and then when we have our Q2 meeting, we’ll review all the things that are there and decide what we wanna take action on next." And sometimes by the time we get to it, it doesn’t seem as exciting as it did in the moment.

So sometimes those things fall away. And that’s the other thing is, again, [00:27:00] managing time and energy is really important, and by not always jumping on opportunities, like really thinking them through, and making sure you’re planning your, your marketing, you’re planning things out so that you’re not, again, chasing every shiny object out there is gonna help you be more successful.

So Trello we love. Um, we use Zoom a lot obviously. Podcasting, meeting with our team, Zoom’s definitely one of the tools we use. AI is amazing. We started using AI back when Jasper came out, which was a few years before Chat kind of hit the market. So having something to help you write, having something to help you, you know, create documents and things like that is fantastic.

Just remember, it’s not always accurate, so you need to check behind it, yeah? And, um, and, and really as a business owner, everything you put out represents you, so you wanna make sure that you’re not putting out what they refer to as AI slop, and there’s some good rules around that. So just making sure that you’re using AI responsibly and what you’re putting out there [00:28:00] truly represents who you are as a business owner.

I would say those are the primary right now

Tim Melanson: Nice. I wanna, I wanna poi- uh, like, zero in on something you just said, ’cause it’s not, it’s, it has not come up on this podcast in, like, 400 episodes. And it was about how when you come up with an idea, you just create a card for it and look at it later. That is brilliant, because the shiny object syndrome is a big thing for all of us.

I’ve been in, you know, I, I come up with this idea, and I end up, like, working on it for, like, hours, and then the next day I’m like, "That’s not even a good idea." Like, like, what, what’s up with that? It’s almost like you, you finish it. And what a great idea to just write it down, because you don’t wanna lose it, ’cause it could be a good idea.

But, but it’s like the next day if it’s still a good idea, or the next quarter, whatever it happens to be, that’s the right time, ’cause it, ’cause it’s like it stands the test of time, right? But that, that’s brilliant, really, to just write it down right away [00:29:00] so you don’t forget it, but put it over there so that if it’s still a good idea at that point…

Because that’s the thing, you, you’ve gotta be intention about your day. Like, if you’ve, if you’ve planned to work on these five things today and then you drop them because this shiny idea came into play, well, now you’re not doing the things that you thought was important when you were thinking about it, right?

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely. The other thing you can do is, you, you know, we don’t really, I say, work on Fridays. As a general rule, we don’t take meetings on Fridays, which means we have the opportunity to, to get shit done, let’s be honest. Sometimes to catch up for everything we’re behind on. But, um, that is a time when Jeanne and I will talk out ideas that we’ve had, and we’ll make notes in those cards.

You know, so, you know, putting as much information in the card as possible is important. So for example, I was talking about creating a quiz for a lead magnet, and the timing’s not right, but I d- I did end up getting some information from it last Friday, ’cause that’s some time to… That’s my time to kind of go down a rabbit hole if I want to, a couple hours on [00:30:00] Fri- And so I went down the rabbit hole, pulled a bunch of information, and then I just put it all in the card.

So when we come back to it, you know, in Q2, and we decide if it makes sense to create a quiz funnel, all of my notes and my thoughts are there, so then we have the opportunity to review what we talked about and then have a conversation around it and to develop it into something that might actually be really amazing or viable.

So that, that’s how we, we process that

Tim Melanson: Nice. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, you mentioned AI. I mean, I, I- it comes up on almost every, every podcast now. Uh, b- but I, I use AI a lot for that as well because, I mean, y- you can talk out these ideas. I, I know that it’s always more effective to talk it out with somebody, right? I mean, you’re, you know, you sit in your own head, but, like, uh, but talking it out with an AI is fantastic ’cause you get to work through some of those things, and then it can actually summarize everything and help you put it into the card so that you can r- revisit it later.

Do you use it for that too, or?

Kirsten Graham: We do, yeah. So, [00:31:00] yeah, actually asking it different questions and fleshing out how it would work and, you know, just, just remember, especially Chat, Chat, like, wants to tell you what you wanna know. So

Tim Melanson: It wants to tell you what you wa- what you wanna hear.

Kirsten Graham: everything you say, even if you tell it not to. So we use Claude, we use, um, we use probably four or five different AI tools, and I flip around between them.

I might take everything Chat gave me and put it in Claude and said, "What’s wrong with this?" Pick holes in this. Find … Yeah. So I’m kind of… I’m pitting them against each other, you know? And we joke because Judy says please and thank you to her AI. I, I, I’m like, "You didn’t do that right. That’s not what I wanted.

Get it right." And so we joke that, you know, when AI comes to take over the world, she’s being nice to them so they’ll be nice to her. I’m like, "Oh, no, I’m letting them know we’re gonna have a fight. If they come to take over, we’re having a fight."

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Wow

Kirsten Graham: But yeah, you can use different AI tools to cross-reference what other AI tools have done, so

Tim Melanson: Yeah. But I, you know, to me, that’s encouraging that it makes all those mistakes because you know, people are, like, all scared that [00:32:00] it’s gonna take over everything, and I just don’t think it’s going to. It’s ju- um, but I’m, I’m a programmer, so I see it as code. And, and, and code is not a person. So it’s, it’s very good with the left brain stuff, but the right brain stuff, I think it’s always gonna need us for that, right?

Kirsten Graham: Yes, absolutely

Tim Melanson: Yeah. But, but a l- the, the, the funny thing about it is that the left brain stuff is the stuff that’s super time-consuming and monotonous. It’s, it’s the stuff that most of us don’t wanna do anyway. So why not use, uh, a tool to help us with that portion of things so that we can spend more time in our right brain doing the creative things that actually do light us up, right?

Kirsten Graham: Yeah, absolutely. And, and like you said, AI isn’t… It’s getting there. I mean, it’s changing so rapidly. But for example, like I said, I place bookkeepers for CPA firms and s- and bookkeeping companies, and a couple of the bookkeeping companies have been taking on different AI tools that is supposed to do some of the work for them, but they’re like, "It’s not there yet.

You have to go through and, and, and really sign off on what it’s done." So by the time you review it, you almost could have done it. [00:33:00] And so a, a couple of them have said, "We’ll just, we’ll table it for another year till they get it right and just, you know, use our VAs to do that." The, uh, another thing that people ask is do I feel like AI will replace virtual assistants, and I don’t think so because I feel like AI is a tool that can assist the virtual assistants in their job.

You know, our VAs are trained to use different AI tools, and we give them support on learning about AI. So I, I don’t really think people are gonna be completely replaced, but it is gonna take, like you said, a lot of the monotonous things away, which is gonna allow us to ask our team, "Hey, you know, that used to take you 10 hours.

Now with AI, it takes you two. What do you wanna do with those other eight hours?" Like, you know, "Is there a project that you see that we could work on?" Or, you know, Jeanne and I might decide this is the next project, so this is what we want you to do for this. So I, it’s, I think it’s a great tool, but it is a tool.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Uh, you and I agree on that. I, I said the same thing. I, I don’t think it’s gonna replace hardly anything. It’s just gonna make the people that we’re hiring more effective. ‘Cause I do see it as a hammer, and y- y- I mean, if, [00:34:00] if, if I’m hiring somebody, I need to hire somebody to use the hammer, right? And unless I’m using the hammer, and then I’m my own virtual assistant, which I’m not.

I don’t, I don’t wanna be my own virtual assistant. I want somebody else to handle that portion. So give them the hammer. They can do it. I’ll hire them to do it. Now, will that make me pay a lot less or, or have a much more effective VA? Probably. I think it’s actually going to, like, really dial that up. I mean, hey, I mean, a virtual assistant now might only be able to handle one or two or three clients or whatever it is, but man, give that a few years, and they will be able to actually up-level their own business to be able to handle so much more, ’cause they’re an expert in that area and they know how to use the tool.

Kirsten Graham: Yeah, absolutely

Tim Melanson: You know? It, it- to me, what’s, what’s the most exciting about AI, I think, is the way I see the future, is I think that it’s gonna make everybody significantly more productive. And to me, that means more small businesses. [00:35:00] That means more people work from home and doing these things, right? And, and being able to compete with large, large businesses.

So I, I think it’s, I think it’s exciting. But I mean, hey, I’m an optimist.

Kirsten Graham: Yeah, it, yeah, it, it’s funny too because I, in my whole life I’ve never thought, "Oh, I’d love to be 20 again," until it came out and I thought, "Oh my gosh, I would love to be 20 again because I want to see where this is gonna go over the next 80 years," right? So but like someone said, 20 years is gonna happen in like two years based on AI ’cause things are getting compressed.

But yeah, we do have to figure out how to set aside time to learn AI, and like you said, not let it re- derail the day of the tasks that you need to get done

Tim Melanson: Yeah. And I’ve gotten into pretty big arguments with AI too, so don’t let it ruin your day. Like,

Kirsten Graham: Yeah, that

Tim Melanson: it’s not a person, it doesn’t get it, so you can yell at it all you want and it just doesn’t get it, right?

Kirsten Graham: exactly

Tim Melanson: So let’s move into your solo. Tell me what’s exciting in your business right now

Kirsten Graham: Oh my [00:36:00] gosh. So in the past, all of the virtual assistants we have offered have really revolved around marketing, so because Jeanne owned an agency, so we offer virtual assistants for clients who wanna start a video podcast or virtual assistants for people who want to get booked on podcast. Or like I said, we offer software virtual assistants for building funnels and, and websites and things like that.

So everything we have done has really been geared around marketing. In 2025, our bookkeeper retired, and she sold her business, and because I’ve already been hiring bookkeepers, you know, for other companies, Jeanne and I decided to outsource it. And we knew we’d save money. We saved about $3,600 a year. But what happened was it changed the relationship because, again, business to business is one thing, but having a virtual assistant who’s on your team that you’re paying hourly…

And again, even though our bookkeeper works, like, four hours a month for us, she’s still on our team. It changed some things because in our second meeting, one of the things she asked us was, "You have a lot of [00:37:00] different revenue streams. Would you like me to separate those?" And we’re like, "Yeah, that’s a great idea."

Our past bookkeeper never asked us, but we never asked her. It was something that we didn’t even think about. But breaking down the income streams gave us a lot of information. It was interesting to see, you know, one, we were bringing in more affiliate commission than we realized. You know, it was interesting to see which offers had been more profitable.

It was interesting to see where we needed to raise some prices. So that was really powerful. And somehow we started talking about that, and then someone said, "Are you gonna offer bookkeeping virtual assistance?" And we had kind of said we weren’t gonna roll out anything else new until 2026, but we did roll it out in 2025.

But, but yeah, it just… Yeah, we had a, we had a big enough demand for it. So we ended up creating, um, it’s called Love Your Profit, and it’s a program that helps our clients get their finances in order with a bookkeeping, a, a bookkeeper, affordable bookkeeping virtual assistant. And my heart was singing because, again, my background’s mortgage, and so I’m back in the numbers, so that was really [00:38:00] exciting for me.

And at the end of 2025, I just said to Jeanne, you know, as a business coach over, you know, the past couple decades, one of the things I’ve realized is the business owners that have their finances in order are always the ones that are more successful. And the people who, you know, they might… Uh, there are a lot of people who will take manifesting classes, like money manifesting classes, but that’s not gonna work if you’re afraid of your money and you’re sticking your head in the sand and your bookkeeping’s not getting done, right?

And so we were like, okay, well, this is people who I really wanna help, the people who have a lot of guilt, a lot of shame around money. I want to really empower them to build a successful financial foundation. So our mission for 2026 is to help 1,000 business owners to get their finances in order and, uh, pair them with fabulous, um, bookkeeping virtual assistants, and it was a big goal.

So I, I always said I- I’m a little bit scared to put it out there because I have no idea how we’re gonna make this happen. But we’ve had an opportunity, two different, um, creators that have [00:39:00] fairly large audiences have invited us to come into their marketplaces or to speak with their people. So it’s, it’s starting to fall in place.

You know, here we are with, uh… We’re recording this on the 3rd of March. Um, so we’re not cl- we’re not, we’re not on track to hit that thousand right now, I’ll be honest. Like, and that’s the other thing, being honest, right? So you have a big goal, and you know, well, I need to sell this many a month in order for it to work.

We’re behind on that right now, but we’ve been really doing the foundational work to build relationships of people who also have our ideal client and who believe and know that if they change that one thing in their business, it’ll boost their confidence. It’ll change their pricing. It’ll, it’ll help them become successful.

So that’s, that’s what I’m most excited about.

Tim Melanson: Wow, that’s awesome. So I’m wondering, if someone is running a business, what would be- they be looking at? What would be happening in their lives right now where they actually need to be hiring you? H- how would

Kirsten Graham: Uh, sure. Yeah, so I still offer one-on-one coaching. It’s really funny, I hadn’t taken on new clients in a while [00:40:00] because I’ve, I have clients I’ve had for over a decade. But I, I recently have started taking on some new one-on-one clients, which has been fun. So if you’re, if you’re just feeling overwhelmed or you don’t have a strategy, that’s something we do in one-on-one coaching.

If you really wanna start a podcast, or if you know guesting on podcasts would be a great marketing strategy, that’s something else we can help you with. So these are the- we just wanna help people… So we don’t offer virtual assistance for everything, and the reason why we don’t do that is because we have very detailed SOPs.

So we interview and vet all of the virtual assistants. So for example, Tim, if you said, "Well, I need someone to produce my podcast," you know, we interview them, we vet them, they go through a paid internship with us. They work with you two weeks, um, with our hiring manager and training manager, because we wanna make sure the client understands all of the structure and the SOPs that we provide so that everything gets done week after week consistently.

So we have really dialed in processes, and that’s why our clients have such great success. Uh, we have clients going on six years with the same [00:41:00] VA, so that’s, that’s our goal.

Tim Melanson: of course is good advice for anybody. Niche in, figure out exactly what you do so you c- you’re an expert in that area, right?

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely, yeah. And it’s hard, ’cause sometimes people are like, "Oh, well, I want you to do this." And it’s like, well, I can give you some outsourcing companies that I think have good reputations, but, you know, we can’t be all things to all people. And that’s the other thing I would say if you’ve started a business.

It’s really easy to say yes to projects or clients that are not ideal. It’s gonna eat away at your soul. It almost always ends up costing you money. So, figure out who your ideal client is and how you can serve them, um, to, to the best of your ability. And, and that sometimes means saying no

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Is that something that you also help, uh, a client with is to figure that out?

Kirsten Graham: To figure out, sorry

Tim Melanson: Who their ideal client is

Kirsten Graham: Yes, in one-on-one coaching we can definitely go through all of that. Um, yeah, we have a process for that. So yeah, absolutely

Tim Melanson: Awesome. So how do we find out more?

Kirsten Graham: Uh, so you can go to [00:42:00] sixfigurebusinesscoaching.com, sixfigurebusinesscoaching.com. If you really wanna get your finances in order, we host a master class twice a month, and you can sign up for that at lessmathmoremoney.com, lessmathmoremoney.com

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Awesome. Hey, uh, I think everybody’s gonna like that. Except for me, I like math, but whatever. I still like money, too.

Kirsten Graham: You, you’re kind of like creative with a math brain. The music and the coding kind of co- in some ways go hand-in-hand, I think

Tim Melanson: Uh, there’s a lot of math in music. So you’ll find a lot of crossovers between musicians and mathematicians, for sure.

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely

Tim Melanson: Hey, speaking of musicians, so tell me, who is your favorite rock star?

Kirsten Graham: Oh my gosh. I always loved Tom, Tom Petty back in the day. I’m gonna age myself. I love the Grateful Dead.

Tim Melanson: Wow

Kirsten Graham: yeah, so probably more older rock, I guess, ’80s and ’90s stuff

Tim Melanson: Nice. Did you [00:43:00] see them live at all?

Kirsten Graham: Yes, I’ve saw, I saw The Dead and Petty, Tom Petty Live, yes, several times. The Eagles. Yeah

Tim Melanson: The Eagles too, yeah. Oh, so good. Right on. Yeah, I love, I love all that music too. Tom Petty is one of my favorites as well. And, uh, the Grateful Dead, I, I didn’t listen to a whole bunch of them. Um, but I did go see Phish, which is a similar type band.

Kirsten Graham: Kingfish too, yeah.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, those, those are experiences.

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely. And then Fleetwood Mac. I love Fleetwood Mac too.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. L- you love classic rock then?

Kirsten Graham: I do. Classic rock kind of girl.

Tim Melanson: Is that the kind of stuff you sing in the shower?

Kirsten Graham: Oh, I don’t sing in the shower. I get downloads. I’m in the shower and all of a sudden an idea comes for a client or an idea for a blog post. So

Tim Melanson: Awesome

Kirsten Graham: time is usually my, uh… I think it’s when I’m relaxed and all of a sudden, like, good ideas come into play. So that’s my idea space

Tim Melanson: Is that, is the car your idea of space too?

Kirsten Graham: In some cases, but a lot of times now I spend so much [00:44:00] time either working, meeting on calls with people, or dictating. Like, so that when I get back I can, uh, uh, just copy and paste it into chat and figure out what I need to do with whatever I dictated. So not as much. Plus I work from home, so I’m not usually out driving a lot.

It’s not like I have to commute to and from work. So I would definitely say the shower. I, I live in Florida, so the beach. We go to the beach a lot. So those, those are my favorite places. Water, water-

Tim Melanson: I live in Canada. Oh, you know what? The one thing about living in Canada is that you really appreciate the summer.

Kirsten Graham: Absolutely. Yeah, we have a lot of Canadian clients and, um, you know, I, uh, but it- where you live is so beautiful. Like, I always see pictures of our, you know, with our clients up there and, you know, you’re surrounded by water. It’s just frozen most of the time. But it is, it is beautiful. You guys have such gorgeous and different types of landscapes.

Tim Melanson: Yep. Yeah. I used to, uh, I used to do a lot of traveling down to the States and to Florida, and it was, I just thought it was always funny [00:45:00] that we would go down there and, uh, there’d be a group of us, and everybody who lives there would be in the air conditioning, and we’re outside.

Kirsten Graham: Yeah.

Tim Melanson: in air conditioning?

Kirsten Graham: Right, or the winter. So we’ve had a really cold winter. I had frost on my windshield one day. But, um, yeah, if we go to the beach, last time I went to the beach my girlfriend wore jeans and a long-sleeve shirt, and so of course we’re kind of bundled up, and obviously the crazy Canadians are swimming, so…

Tim Melanson: Yep. That is awesome. Thank you so much, Kristen, for rocking out with me today. This has been a lot of fun

Kirsten Graham: you. Yeah, it’s been awesome. I really appreciate the conversation.

Tim Melanson: Great. And to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information, and we’ll see you next time on the Work at Home Rockstar podcast