Bill Flynn – Building Teams, Systems, and Cash Discipline for Scalable Growth

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar Podcast. Today I’m talking to the CEO of Catalyst Growth Advisors, and what he does is he helps leaders take the guesswork outta growth. Excited to hear more about that. So we are rocking out today with Bill Flynn. Hey, Bill, you ready to rock?

Bill Flynn: Ready to rock.

Tim Melanson: Love it. We always start off on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by.

Bill Flynn: Yeah, well, um, we do good and, and actually your good and your bad note are in the same story. So can I, can I do that?

Tim Melanson: they often are.

Bill Flynn: Okay. So, um, the reason I do what I do today is because of this story. I, uh, so I did, uh, I’ve, I’ve done 10 startups here in the Boston area over about 25 years, all in high tech and, um. Between start of five and six, I was asked by my then wife and daughter, do I need to do another one right away? ’cause they, you know, they take a lot of time and energy and, and things and, and I had done pretty well. I was, I [00:01:00] was, uh, I think four for five at that time. Uh, and. Uh, so I said, no, I don’t. I, so I, I took time off.

I spent a lot more time with my daughter. She was, um, like seven or eight, something like that. And, um, one I, but I was still known in the area and people heard that I was now free. And so I would get calls and can you come help me and do this and do that? So one of the calls was from an old, um, um, CFO friend of mine, and he was doing a fractional gig with a, with an email hosting company.

And he said, you really gotta help this guy. You know, he’s really struggling and whatever. So I met with him. I said, uh, yeah, I’m happy to help. Uh Uh I’m expensive and I only work Monday through Thursday between 10 and two. I said,

can you do that while I’m sort of off off? Right.

Uh. Because, you know, I wanna drop my daughter off at school, then I go work out, then I go pick her up and we do stuff and whatever.

So, so, uh, that was great. I did that. Um, he [00:02:00] eventually, he said, look, I wanna sell the company. I’ve been doing this for a whole bunch of years. I’m tired. Uh, I just wanna, can you help me? Make me look as big as you possibly can so I can get as much money outta this as I possibly can. So I’m like, great. So we. You know, hired a bunch of people, put together some, some strategy and, and some frameworks and stuff. And about a year later he got bought for a good amount of money, enough for him to never have to work again. Uh, and then I was asked to take over, uh, so this was 2008 and, uh, my first official day as what would be general manager, uh, was, uh, January 4th, 2009. And I like to describe it as the best and the worst day of my professional life, which is sort of the good, the good and the bad note

together. Uh, we didn’t deliver email to anyone for about two and a half days because the entire technical infrastructure that he had built, and I had been working with him and collapsed on itself due to the volume that it wasn’t ready to handle. [00:03:00] So the company that bought us knew that the system needed to be upgraded, et cetera, but you know, they didn’t realize it needed to be done that quickly. And so they were sort of taking care of that. But I had 60 people working for me, thousands of customers. Uh, so I’m like, you know, what do I need to do? I need to fix this and sort of help all these people. And, um, I, I had a bunch of good CEOs that I had worked with in the previous years. I’ve been a big fan of business anyway, I’ve been reading. For years, decades. And so I had all sort of these ideas, so I’m like, all right, well let’s give ’em a go. And so I basically cobbled together a system. And for those of you, and you may know this, Tim, uh, there’s a system out there called EOS. And, um, I basically made my own EOS because I wasn’t smart enough to know that it was already out there. So I made my own and it worked fabulously, uh. You, you can look at, you can look at my LinkedIn and see all the wonderful stats that I have up there. You know, we doubled the size of the business in about two years and I didn’t lose any of those [00:04:00] 60 people. Um, we increased the average order size. You know, we had customer stats scores that, you know, were, started off lousy of course, and then really good. But the best part was this, I sort of, um. I had a team and then I inherited a bunch of people and you know, none of us had been through this sort of disaster before, and some of them hadn’t really been leaders of anything before. Uh, so I said to them, look, uh, we need to figure this out. We have all these people relying on us. I said, look, I don’t, I’m technically adept, but I don’t know how to run a network infrastructure. I’ve never run customer support before. I’m not a finance guy said, but. You know, so I, you know, I need you guys and I can’t really tell you what to do ’cause I don’t know what to do.

But I can tell you sort of what I would like it to look like when we’re done and would love to discuss debate and decide that with you. And then I need each of you to then say, okay, if that’s sort of our ultimate goal, what’s your piece of it? And I need you to sort of draw me the map from where we are. To where, what you need to get to, where you [00:05:00] want to be, and then we’re gonna work together to, to do that. Um, and you know, as I said, it worked fabulously well. Uh, and so about 18 months later, I left to go do the next startup, which would’ve been startup six, I guess. And two of the guys came up to me and they kind of said the same thing to me when I was always leaving was, I just want you to know, bill, that thing you made me do that roadmap, you made me create, hated it.

It was really, really hard, but I’m so glad you made me do it because now I know how to do this right? It’s sort of like sort of a teach ’em to fish kind of thing. Um, so that really sprung me into what I do now, which is I, I now do that with other leaders. I teach them. How the best businesses in the world work, because by the way, they all work kind of the same way at a certain level. And so that’s sort of what I do and I love what I do. It’s a calling. I wish I, I wish I had been doing it longer. I’ve been doing about 10 years. It’s just a blast. Um, time flies when I work with my clients, you know, I, [00:06:00] it’s, uh, it pays really well. So it’s, uh, so that’s my good note and my bad note.

Tim Melanson: So what did you learn from the bad note, I guess?

Bill Flynn: Uh, uh, what I learned is that most leaders, uh, don’t know what they’re doing. It’s not their fault. Uh, they’re being taught the wrong things.

There’s a huge gap between what science knows and what business does. Um, we make lots of mistakes. We don’t make big, huge mistakes very often, but we make. Little ones that just add

up and it makes our lives so much harder than they really need to be.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, the compound effect, right?

Bill Flynn: Yeah, exactly.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. If it was a big mistake, you’d notice it right away.

Bill Flynn: Yeah.

Yeah. You know, you, you hire that one person that, you know, they looked good and then all of a sudden, you know, nobody likes ’em and they don’t work and then, and then you don’t do anything about it. And then they start hiring people. It’s like, it just becomes an issue. That’s just one [00:07:00] of many things that we do. Uh, and because, you know, we were taught to, you know, to hire for skill and knowledge, and that’s not the way you should hire a loan, right? You said yes, that’s important, but to be honest with you, it’s less important than hiring them for belief and, and fit,

uh, values. Uh, you can teach ’em skills and knowledge, but you can’t teach ’em how to be, how out of integrity or honesty or whatever.

Tim Melanson: I can’t agree more than that. That’s, that’s actually something that has come up many times on the, on the show where people will make hires based on the, you know, picking the best of the best and it just ends up not being a very good fit. Um, but like, what about friends? Should you hire friends?

Bill Flynn: Uh, you can, but you know, it’s gonna test your friendship. Especially if they work for you. Um, so what happens is I hire people and then, then they become friends,

and then I hire ’em again. Right. But, but we know, like the dynamic, right? We know that, you know, I [00:08:00] have certain style, I do certain things and you know, my style is basically to, to set direction and then. To say, Hey, great. Do, do what you do and then tell me if you need me.

Right? I’m gonna check on you every now and again. I, you know, I’ve been calling it eyes on, hands off leadership, right? Is, is, you know, I’m gonna keep an eye on things, making sure things are going well, but I’m gonna keep my hands out of it unless something happens and I need to, but, you know, uh, so so that works. But if you don’t set that up ahead of time, you know, there’s gonna be, it could be difficult.

Tim Melanson: So then what are some of the, I guess, processes that you put in place to avoid some of those mistakes that you know led to your bad note?

Bill Flynn: Yeah. Well, how long is your show?

Tim Melanson: So that’s a

whole course then.

Bill Flynn: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So at, but at a high level, uh, the thing that I’ve learned over 30 years of, of, of research and business and really intensely in the last 10, you know, I, I might be the world expert in what I do. I don’t know, [00:09:00] uh, ’cause I’ve been studying business from multiple perspectives for about 10 years and. Uh, not only just, you know, business itself, but you know, neuroscience and behavioral and social psychology and all of these things that go along with running a great business because I found that there are three things that seem to be the, the biggest factors in whether you have not a business that survives, but a business that thrives. Uh, and there are few of them. There aren’t that many. Uh, there are outliers, but it’s doable. Uh, and it’s, and it’s been proven over and over again. So it’s, it’s not like we can’t do it, but as I said earlier, we just don’t. Um, and that is, uh, so, so there’s a, there’s a methodology called scaling Up. That I use as a foundation.

Some of your listeners may know what it is, and, and there are four decisions that they talk about, which are people, strategy, execution, and cash. And so people is the most important, but people is three different things. It’s the individual, it’s the team, and it’s the culture of those three [00:10:00] team is far more important than either of the other two

Tim Melanson: Okay.

Bill Flynn: because most people are on a team. And most people will stay in a horrible culture if they’re on a great team and actually will leave a great culture if they’re on a bad team. So the team is really the core of what you do and, and we never teach people how to be great team leaders. We put ’em in charge. But we don’t teach them how, you know, what it worked, how, how do you attract and, and dev and craft and then develop and exit people from a team. We don’t teach any of that. And that’s sort of what I do as well. So that’s one big factor is this team factor is huge. Then you have to have some sort of system, right. Um, running a business. Uh, so a business is a system, but it’s not just any kind of system. It’s what’s called a complex adaptive system like the human body or a city, uh, et cetera.

These are complex. There are so many factors that are involved that affect the system, and [00:11:00] there’s no way to just sort of say, this is it, and we’re done, because then something changes and then, you know, the system is affected. So you have to understand that, that this, you have to sort of run it like that, but you should have one. Right. You should run your business in a systematic way, which most people don’t. Um, they do the, they make the same decision over and over again. You know, they, they, they solve the problem and never say, well, what caused that problem? And we

should solve that so it

doesn’t happen. And go back to the root.

You know, there’s just so many things that we don’t do ’cause we’re busy and whatever. Um, so, so you have to have some sort of system. Uh, I, I teach a system. I call it the performance operating system. It’s to me, for me, the, I cobbled together the best parts of all the things that I’ve learned. Uh, and it seems relatively unique, but it’s really based on Drucker Deming, sche McGregor, Bennis, Porter Edmondson.

It’s, you know, all these management science people that have been around for a hundred years, really. Um, and then the last thing is, if you wanna measure how well you’re doing. [00:12:00] Revenue and profit are not your measurement. Cash is your measurement. If you wanna grow a business, cash is your primary financial metric. Why? Because it’s the only thing that won’t lie to you on your p and l or your balance sheet. You can, you know, certainly have revenue that is, you know, vanity, right? But it doesn’t mean you’re running a great business. Profit is great, but you can fool yourself on profit. You can move money around and seem profitable and whatever.

Or you can actually grow. In such a way that you grow broke, right? You’re growing and the profit’s there, but the profit, the cash is too far behind the growth. So you grow broke, uh, because you’ve grown so fast, you actually put yourself out of business, right? So those are the three things you need, team, some sort of system, and then cash.

If you focus on those three things and optimize those three things, you’re in the best possible position to have a thriving company.

Tim Melanson: Wow, that’s amazing. Wow. So much gold. So quickly. Well done. Uh, I have a question though about, ’cause you mentioned so many startups that you [00:13:00] started up and uh, you know, I know a lot of entrepreneurs kind of do a bunch of different things, but I think. Probably it’s more normal that they do a bunch of things because the fir, the, the first thing failed and then they go to something else and they go to something else.

Um, but I talk to more people more often that have that one business that they’ve been doing forever because now it works. Right. W when you go into those businesses, did you go into them initially with the intent that you were gonna be leaving at some point or. Did it just, you created these systems and then it was just easy to leave.

Like what? What was the mindset going into them?

Bill Flynn: Yeah, so, um. You know, you hear, uh, these things like what’s your superpower or your zone of genius or whatever, right? And we have all these wonderful little phrases for stuff. Um, but to me it’s really the thing that lights you up or turns you on or whatever, you know, gets your juices, whatever that thing is.

Right? And for me it’s puzzles.

I just love [00:14:00] puzzles. Uh, I have a brain that just loves puzzles, right? And, and so I do puzzles all over. I mean, I, I have the New York Times. You know, crossword and, and app and I do all, all those things. You know, a startup is just a big puzzle. You know, I love Mensa questions and stuff like that really challenged me.

I love watching detective shows and trying to figure out, you know, as I go, like, what’s, what’s gonna happen? And I love it when I don’t, right? It’s even, uh, because it’s fun. It’s like, ah, I never, that’s a cool way to do it. Um, so, so that’s what got me into it. Um. And so what happens when you’re good at puzzles and you, and you’re good at startups, uh, the people who know that want you to do the another one.

Tim Melanson: Uh,

Bill Flynn: So like, so you like, you know, you get an

IPO or you get an acquisition and they’re like, you know, great. Now do this one, right? And, and can you make us some more money? And all that kind of stuff. So that’s sort of what happens is you get sort of into this thing. I don’t necessarily go into a thing, I’m gonna leave at any particular time, but. You know, when it becomes routine, it is, it’s, there’s less puzzle there, right? It’s

your, you know, there is some puzzle, there’s always a puzzle, you know, [00:15:00] people are puzzles. I mean, we’re crazy by default and, you know, and sort of all that. And I find that fascinating. Um, but I do like the figuring out parts.

So, um, now I get to do it. I’m not doing startups, but I’m, I’m sort of going into a company and I’m helping them figure it out,

right? So it’s a new thing every time with them. Uh, so that’s sort of. That’s sort of the, the, the, the way I’ve approached it so far.

Tim Melanson: Wow. I really like that. And you know, I think, oh, oh, well that’s the thing. Once you solve a puzzle, it’s solved. It’s not fun anymore. Right. Like quote unquote. And you know, I don’t know if this is too deep or not, but maybe what you said earlier about how most entrepreneurs or most business people don’t.

Look at why the problem happened. They just keep on solving the problem as they happen. Maybe that’s why maybe they don’t wanna solve the puzzle. Maybe they don’t wanna leave. Right? They want it. They want it to keep on living in that chaos,

Bill Flynn: Could be. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you

Tim Melanson: least subconsciously.

Bill Flynn: chaos. Yeah. Who knows? I mean, there are some, they love the drama, right. And, and whatever they feed off of that. Um, most [00:16:00] entrepreneurs I know don’t,

Tim Melanson: No. No.

Bill Flynn: they would, they would rather it be, you know, a, a little less hard

because, you know, it makes your life more difficult.

And, you know, you don’t, you don’t, you don’t want to have your, your work. Be your whole life, right? Is, is, you know, we talk about work-life balance and I don’t think that’s a thing at all. There’s no balance in work and life, right? It’s, it’s, you know, sometimes one pull thing pulls you in the other and you have to integrate them, right?

So the integration is important, um, but you’ll never have balance. Uh, and, but especially if you are, if you are sucked into what I call the, sort of the tyranny of the moment, right? This is a problem that most leaders have is they get sucked into the tyranny of the moment and there are lots of them, and they feed off of that, right?

Is is that actually they like being the solver and the decider and

whatever. But then they don’t create, you know, they don’t, I have this concept, uh, that, that’s in my next book, which is [00:17:00] sort of the, the, the hero trap, right? We have this trap that we like to be the hero. And, and by the way, you know, especially in western culture, individualism and all that is, it’s part of our thing, right?

Is the hero is, is all lauded. Um. But in a business it doesn’t work. ’cause, ’cause the hero doesn’t scale. At some point you run out of hours in a day or brain cells or whatever. Right? So, uh, this concept I’ve come up with is, you know, you have to sort of, sometimes it’s good to be a hero. You have to be the hero. You have a particular skill or there’s the house is on fire or whatever. You gotta go in and just do. Right? Um, but it, but if you just do and then go onto the next thing, then. The house will catch fire a different way, and then you’ll have to go do it again. So, you know, it’s like once you do that, you should then teach and say, okay, here are the people that need to know, here’s what I did, here’s how I fixed it, you know?

And so now they’re learning at least how you do it, right? So there’s this controller, which is the hero, then there’s builder, right? So the controller is [00:18:00] iol. The builder is I teach, and then the architect, which is really what you want to scale because that is infinite in scale, is, is I build systems that make me unnecessary for the running of the business. Uh, and that is what you drive towards. So this is Reed Hastings at Netflix. Um, uh, uh, this is um, Jeff Bezos at Amazon. You know, pick your. You know, company that has grown crazy in the last 10, 15, 20 years. These are architects. They’ve built systems that don’t need them for the day to day ’cause they’re looking out into the future.

And that’s what you should be doing.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and that is a superpower and that is something that I think is missing. Misunderstood by the majority of the population. You know, thinking that these guys make way too much money or whatever it is, and maybe they do, right? Uh,

do they need that many billions? I don’t know. But on the other hand, that is a superpower.

I mean, [00:19:00] they have been able to do something that very few people are able to do. Otherwise, everybody be doing it right.

Bill Flynn: Yeah. Yeah. And so very few people are architects, right. And, and you’re not, so it’s, it’s not like you’re one or the other. Some you have to don the, the identity, depending on what you need. Right? Sometimes Jeff Bezos had to go in and. Do something right. But, but he never stopped at that. He said, okay, you know what happened here?

And, and eventually, ’cause those of you know, like there’s 14 principles in the Amazon system. And now Jassy, who’s the new CEO, he runs like six Fortune 500 companies

on his own. How can you do that? I mean, they’re all worth billions and billions of dollars each, but he runs them as he’s the, he’s the CEO of all of them,

uh, because Bezos and the team and et cetera put all that in place over, you know, years and decades.

So he can, I.

Tim Melanson: It’s fascinating to think about it that way. Really. I mean, you, you’d almost think that in a way, these people are lazy [00:20:00] because they’re trying to figure out ways to make their company work without them. If they get pulled into something, they’re like, I need to figure out a way to not be pulled into this again.

And, and, uh, it’s

just, it’s just, interesting how that works. ’cause I mean, that’s probably why he’s able to run so many different companies because he doesn’t need to be pulled in very often. He is figured out how to, how, how to replace himself, right?

Bill Flynn: Exactly. Yeah. There’s, there’s a, there’s a Prussian General, and I can’t remember his name, Vaughn something or other, and he said, you know, what kind of offices do you look for? He says, I want lazy and clever officers. Right? ’cause I want them to, to be smart enough to know, you know, that, that their job is to not. Do a lot of stuff. Right. Uh, and that’s what you’re kinda looking for, right? That’s what a, a lazy and clever leader is probably the best kind of leader you want. ’cause they’re constantly, I, I was, it’s funny I did that with, I, I said that to once to a VC person and she said, you know, tell me about, you know, what you do.

And I said, well, I’m basically lazy. And she like, she looked at me and it’s like, you know, that’s a bad thing. And it’s like, no, no. I said, here’s why I’m late. I said, I don’t, you know, my job is to create an environment where I’m not necessary.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.[00:21:00]

Bill Flynn: Because if I’m a leader of the company, my job is not the running of the company.

It is at the beginning, but it’s to figure out, like whenever I started as a VP of sales, I would, I would be the sales guy, right? And I would do, but I’m learning, right? And I’m learning, you know, how does this work? And, and so what kind of salesperson do I need to hire to replace me? Uh, and then I can teach them like how I do sales and how I think, and all the, you know, ’cause I generally had an unusual way of doing sales, um, which really worked really well. Um, that’s why I would teach them when I do that, but then I’m like, you know, go, you know, let me know if you need me.

Tim Melanson: Love

Bill Flynn: Um, and, and they were all different. Like one was really relationship oriented. One was a, technically was a perfect technical salesperson, you know, I’m like, I don’t care how you do it. I have two rules.

Be honest and responsible. As long as you follow those rules, do it any way you want, you know? So

Tim Melanson: The world is changing really quickly right

now, and especially with something like AI coming in and, uh, that comes up quite often on the [00:22:00] show. Uh, I’m wondering, you know, how do you think that changes the role of the CEO or the business owner?

Bill Flynn: Yeah. So, uh, you bring this up. It’s interesting. So, um, there’s this term, uh, that we used to be in, which was called vuca, a VUCA environment. Are you familiar with this?

Tim Melanson: Nope.

Bill Flynn: Volatile, uncertain complex, and I forget what the A is. Um, and this was sort of like, hey, this was, came outta the war college here in the United States, you know, this is how leaders had to be thinking about this.

You know, the, the rules of war have changed.

You have to understand it, be adaptive and you know, et cetera. Um, and we’re no longer in that. And actually we’re moving from that to what’s called banney, which is a brittle, anxious, non-linear and incomprehensible.

And the, the poster child example of this is Silicon Valley Bank. I dunno if you’re familiar with what happened with Silicon Valley Bank, but, but $425 [00:23:00] billion was withdrawn in 24 hours

Tim Melanson: Wow.

Bill Flynn: because the leader did what he always did. Like he, he shared with his, um, team and with the world, Hey, something’s happening. We’re fixing it. And he’d let everyone know. And then Peter Thiel didn’t like it. And so he said, I’m taking my money out and so should all of you. And because you could just get on your phone and just withdraw billions of dollars. They, you know, just, and he didn’t do anything differently than he hadn’t done for the previous 40 years. But all of a sudden, you know, people were anxious.

You know, he thought he had a system that worked, but it was brittle. And then the incomprehensible happened. You know, this one little thing, which could have been fixed in a basically two months, they would’ve fixed it sunk the bank.

Now they’re owned by some retail bank in North Carolina.

Tim Melanson: Wow.

Bill Flynn: Yeah,

Tim Melanson: Wow.

Bill Flynn: crazy. And, and [00:24:00] actually, um, my partner works for Silicon Valley Bank and while we were in Mexico, all this was happening. So I got a first row seat to everything that was going on that first week. It was crazy.

Tim Melanson: Wow. Yeah, so this is probably a little alarming to to many people

that,

Bill Flynn: AI is just exacerbating it, right? AI is another factor in this. You know, like how, how can this, you know, all these things that it now can do, um, you know, how well or not is a whole other thing, but, you know, how do I incorporate it? You know, it’s just another factor. It’s just an accelerant. And so that’s why you have to build your systems and it’s not, you can’t really plan.

You can certainly plan. And have a plan, but know that your plan could change at any moment. So what you need to do is not rely on the plan, but rely on your ability to adapt quickly.

Those people will be the ones who survive, not the ones who are like, we got a plan, it’s five years, you know where we’re going and we’re just charging ahead and we’re just gonna put our blinders on, [00:25:00] and whatever. You know, that’s Blockbuster and Nokia and Kodak and you know, the dust, dust, spin of technology.

Tim Melanson: Well, and, and I, I see a lot of that right now because, I mean, as AI is making its way in, I, I don’t know what it’s gonna look like in a few years. I’m a tech guy and so I do follow this stuff, and who knows? I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of a alarming stuff. There’s a lot of exciting stuff, but whatever it is.

E Either way, it’s going to change how we do life in the next little while, just as drastically as how the internet has changed how we did life from then to, to when the internet came. Uh, however, the speed at which things change is going much, much quicker. And so I think that what I am seeing is I’m seeing this divide of people that are embracing.

And, you know, going full steam, maybe even too fast. [00:26:00] And then there is a group of people resisting. And I, I think probably the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. If, if you totally dug, dug your head in the sand, you might end up being a blockbuster. That just didn’t

see that things were changing. Right.

Uh, however, if you, if you go too quickly, you, you might end up failing for the opposite reason. Now you’re actually letting AI run your business for you, which may not do a very good job. Right. Is that how you see it too, or?

Bill Flynn: Yeah, so I would say it is sort of like, like you’re crossing the street and you see that the signs is, is. Says go. And it’s like, oh, I trust that it’s always been right, et cetera. But you know what, sometimes someone doesn’t see the light and while you’re focused on the thing, you get run over.

Right. So, you know, I think putting your head in the sand is, is dumb.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Bill Flynn: Right? It’s, you know, and, and you sort of catastrophize like it’s gonna take over and Terminator and all this kind of

stuff and, you know, is that a possibility? I guess so. [00:27:00] You know, but it’s, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s something, it’s not the reason to not do it. Right, because we, we have been in fear of so many things in the past that yes, they caused problems, you know, but we’ve, we found ways around them and we figured it out as a human, as a human being, you know, will we exterminate ourselves?

I don’t know. Right? But we haven’t so far, and so we know it, it has so many more useful ways of, of making our lives better and easier. And, you know, I gotta tell you, uh, I don’t like writing and I’m an, I’m a writer. And now I can write much better. ’cause I, I love editing.

Tim Melanson: Yeah, me

Bill Flynn: So I say, you know, here’s all my writing that I’ve done for 10 years now I wanna write a book about this, this, and whatever.

So gimme some words and then I’ll change ’em, you know, make sure they look like me. And I’ve written six books in like six months. Uh, and I get the first one’s gonna get the, the next one is gonna get published in October. Right. And I, I, I never would’ve written a book ever again. If I didn’t have Claude or chat GPT or [00:28:00] whatever, you helping me. So it has so many wonderful things. It just makes, it just takes a lot of the, the, the the harder stuff that’s unnecessary, uh, and automates it. But it also augments, right? I mean, I have great debates with, and ai, you know, I’m talking about politics and religion and, you know, and I learned something about the brain.

I’m like, Hey, doesn’t this work? I just, today I’m on the way to a client. And I’m learning about how, uh, epigenetics causes our systems to, uh, for trauma to be, um, adopted by the next generation. And it’s physically a, a change in the genome of the genes, how they’re expressed in the next generation. So. You know, maybe that’s why they’re more anxious or have these other issues. And I’m like, well, how does that work with DNA and, and you know, and, and Darwinian Rev evolution and, you know, and, and you know, it’s, I get to like just ask a quick question and it’s like, and I learned all about, oh, it’s really not the same. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s similar but it generally dies out. You know, it’s certainly an issue, but [00:29:00] it’s, it doesn’t change your code. You know, I never would’ve been able to do that before. I did it in five minutes while I’m driving.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Bill Flynn: I mean, that’s cool.

Tim Melanson: It is very cool. I, and I think that that part there, the voice activated stuff is the coolest of it all. ’cause I mean, I’m a, I’m a great researcher. I love using the internet. Uh, however. Can’t do that when you’re driving or when you’re taking on on a walk. You can’t bring your laptop with you everywhere you go.

But I mean, just to have a headset in or have it on your, on your car and just be driving around and having these conversations as though you have access to all the information ever is mind blowing to me. And

it definitely allows us to grow much, much quicker. Right.

Bill Flynn: It does, it does, you know,

but you gotta be careful, right? As I just say, I say, so I’ve got four tools that I use. I use Grok Chat, PT, uh, Claude, and, um, Gemini. And I actually use ’em against each other, right? I’m like, I heard this over here. I’m like, you know, tell me why this is wrong and uh, et cetera, you know?

Uh, but I describe it, it’s, you remember, it’s a [00:30:00] 14-year-old precocious boy who’s on drugs and hallucinates and lies on a regular basis.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Bill Flynn: You have to know that, and don’t just accept its first answer,

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Bill Flynn: but if you do challenge it, et cetera, it’s, you know, it, it, it has no, it has no emotion. Right? So you’re just like, you know, that’s not right.

You know? Or where did you come up with that? I’ve told that all I, I, I, I joke right regularly with it. I’m like, I, I’m, I say I’m writing a nonfiction series of books. Stop making things up, right? Because I’ll say, where’d you get that stat from? What do you mean? Like, can you, can you gimme the source? Oh, there’s no source.

I made it up. Like, no, that’s not how it works. But,

you know, this is honest. Right? It’s like I made it up. Like I said, stop doing that. Gimme, gimme some content that is not a lie. And we’ll, we’ll throw that in.

Tim Melanson: and we can’t hurt

his feelings, even though we’d like to sometimes

Bill Flynn: Oh, I’ve

sworn at it a couple times. Oh. One time I remember a clot, I was just getting totally frustrated ’cause it was coming up with the same thing.

I’m like, and it would say, I, [00:31:00] I would ask it, tell me what I need to tell you so I can get what I need and then I’ll tell it and it doesn’t do it anyway.

And then I had sworn enough times into it, it came up with a thing. Uh, it maybe we should take a break this box. I’m like, oh, hilarious. It’s like, there must be some code in there that says, okay, if they swear you three times in a row. Tell him to go get a sip cup of water and hang out for a minute.

Tim Melanson: That’s brilliant. Oh, I love it. So let’s talk a little bit about, uh, about getting fans. ’cause I mean, another part of the world has changed. I mean, social media’s taken over everything. I mean, everything is different now, and I’m, I’m actually wondering even just from your experience, how is it different getting fans now as opposed to maybe 10, 20 years ago?

Bill Flynn: So mechanically it’s different, but fundamentally it is not.

Tim Melanson: Perfect.

Bill Flynn: It’s exactly the same. So, um, [00:32:00] there’s a, uh, theory called Jobs to Be Done. Are you familiar with this?

Tim Melanson: Uh, no.

Bill Flynn: Okay. So it’s been around about 30, 35 years. You are familiar with it because you’ve seen it in action. Uh, have you seen the Snickers commercials?

Tim Melanson: I have.

Bill Flynn: That is a jobs to be done model. So, uh, one of the gentlemen who was the progenitor of jobs to be done was hired by the company who, who makes Snickers. And they said, look, you know, we’re, we’re just trying to grow the business, et cetera. And he said, okay, great, I’ll do some research. And he said, look, the, your, the people who buy Snickers the most don’t see Snickers the same as they see Milky Way. Milky Way is an indulgence to them. It’s like cups, cookies, and cupcakes and whatever. Snickers is a food substitute. That is why they buy it, for whatever reason. Right? Some irrational reason of all this. Sugar and candy, whatever is a food substitute,

but that’s how they see it. So that’s why they changed it [00:33:00] to satisfaction. Right. And they have tripled the sales of Snickers. Because they understand why someone buys the thing. Right? Um, and there’s another, there’s, uh, even more famous, uh, example. Uh, Clayton Christensen, who was a Harvard Business professor and is one of the, he’s the, the, the creator of the theory. He took the work and made it a theory.

So a theory is something that you can apply to anything

and it works, right? The Pareto principle is a theory, right? 80 20 rule, right? And you apply it to your closet, to your friends, to your food. It’s pretty much true, right? 80%. If you have a hundred friends, you see 20 of them, way more than you see the other 80.

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Bill Flynn: All the things you eat, the clothes you wear in your closet, you wear the same clothes most often,

right? So, uh, so this theory, uh, was applied to McDonald’s, right? So McDonald’s was, hi hired Clayton Christensen’s, um, consulting firm and said, look, we wanna sell more milkshakes, [00:34:00] you know, can you help us? We here, you might be able to help us.

He said, sure. What? Here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna observe for a day. And so they, they, they observed the whole whatever, 20 hours that this thing was open, and they said, here’s what we found out, that 80% of your milkshakes are purchased before 8:00 AM and between three and 5:00 PM. And they’re like, really?

Like, yeah. So they went the next morning and, and asked a bunch of people, what did you hire this milkshake to do for you? Right? Because that’s what we do. We hire products. And services to fulfill a job for us. And when they fulfill a job, we keep hiring them. And when they don’t, we fire ’em and hire something else.

So they found out that the ones in the morning said, I have a really long commute. It’s super boring and I’m not hungry when I wake up, but I know I’m gonna be hungry before I get to work. So I stop off, I get a milkshake and it, it’s super thick. It takes me like 20 minutes to [00:35:00] drink the whole thing. And I, by the time I get to work, I, you know, I can make it through to lunch.

Tim Melanson: Huh.

Bill Flynn: and they said, well, what else have you hired in the past to do this? They’re like, oh, you know, I hired a banana, but you know, the peel gets all over my hands and it gets, sticks on the wheel and tired. A bagel with cream cheese, but you know, it’s dangerous. And you know, the thing, crumbs go everywhere and I’m getting cream cheese in my pants, you know, and, and you know, some say like, hired a Snickers bar, you know, but I felt guilty. Because I was eating candy, you know, and I’m, and I’m thinking, you know, well, you’re eating milkshake. It’s the same thing.

Tim Melanson: Milkshake is candy too.

Bill Flynn: But, you know, again, we’re, we’re irrational as

human beings. So they said, great. Um, so they went back to this, this franchise owner and said, look, you know, when, when, when they first, they said, when you first tried to increase your sales, what did you do?

And they said, well, we talked to our clients and we asked ’em what they want. And they said they wanted a chunkier, you know, more chocolatey, you know, whatever. Um. Thicker, you know, whatever. And, and they, they made all the changes and the sales didn’t change at [00:36:00] all. So they didn’t really want that, and they didn’t value that.

What they valued was this thing. So they said, okay, so here’s what we’re gonna do. And this was a long time ago. Before, you know, um, apple Pay and all this kind of stuff. So what they did is they made a whole bunch of milkshakes in the morning and they put them out on the counter. ’cause one of the other complaints they had was they go through the drive-through, but it’s, everyone’s getting a milkshake and it’s long.

The line is really long. They said, look, you don’t have to sit in the line. We’re gonna put ’em on the counter. You don’t even have to talk to us. Just come grab your milkshake, swipe your credit card and go. And sales went up. Yeah. Now same product, three to five in the afternoon. This is now dad with his progeny, right?

And he wants to be the cool dad. And the kid says, can I get a milkshake and whatever? And they say, well, all right, what do we do? But don’t tell mom, you know? But you know, the milkshakes were in these horrible cups that, you know, kids who didn’t have motor skills yet with crushing this milkshake would go everywhere. You [00:37:00] know, it was, you know, there were all these other issues. The straw was too small, their muscles in their mouth weren’t good, so they changed how they delivered it. They made it smaller, so dad felt less guilty. They put it in a sippy cup basically with a big fat straw, and sales went up. Again.

They didn’t change the product at all.

They changed how they delivered it and how they packaged it. So that’s how people buy. We’ve been buying that way forever. But we don’t do it as, we don’t, we, we think we know what’s best, but we don’t ever really figure out what they want or what they value, really more than they want. So that’s the fundamental thing.

Now how we do it is, you know, we have social media, we have, we have, you know, events. All the things that we do have changed, but the fundamental reason why people buy is still the same.

Tim Melanson: Oh, I love that. Bill. It’s time for your guest solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your business.

Bill Flynn: Yeah, so for me it’s, you know, it’s this stuff, you know, so [00:38:00] I, I, I love, so I, I’ve been studying this for, for so many years, and I just think it’s a shame that really good ideas, really good people, and really good businesses fail or struggle for completely preventable reasons. And now that I, I can sort of write about it and, and doesn’t. You know, just to stress me that I, it would take me forever to write a

book. Now I can write them really fast. I can now put them down and, and share them because I think, you know what, uh, we’re gonna see in the next five or 10 years if I’m, if I’m right. But I think even the, the management science that we have today is still not correct for the banning environment that we’re in. Right. So, like Michael Porter is seen as the father of strategy. Um, and he’s an HB HBS professor and he’s, you got the five forces and he said that operations shouldn’t be part of your strategy. And I think he’s wrong, and we’ve proven it because when you, you can, you can operate in a unique way that actually augments your strategy.

So I’m extending his thinking [00:39:00] there,

you know, so I’m, I’m, I think I’m extending thinking in a bunch of different areas and hopefully what I’m writing will help people. So that’s what excites me.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Well then how do we find out more then?

Bill Flynn: My website is catalyst growth advisors.com. Um, my current book, I dunno if this, this is video, but my current book is on there. You can actually download it for free if you want, if you wanna read a PDF or you can go to Amazon or, or um, audible or whatever to buy it. And

then my next book will be out, uh, hopefully in October. I’m actually, that was self-published. My other one, I actually have a real publisher now and I don’t know how it works. And so it’ll be, I’ll be in like airports and bookstores and whatever. Um, but mostly, uh, you can, you can find me there at Catalyst Growth Advisors, I write an article twice a month. I have a 50% plus open rate on my articles, so people seem to really like it. Um, all my stuff is there

Tim Melanson: That’s amazing. Well, right on. We’re gonna have to check that out. That book was called Further Faster, right?

Is that what

Bill Flynn: further, faster.

Tim Melanson: Awesome. Right on. [00:40:00] So maybe the hardest question of the whole day, but who’s your favorite rockstar?

Bill Flynn: So it’s interesting, um, it used to be James Taylor,

but I, I’ve, and I still am because we talked about music. I play, I played acoustic guitar. I kind of sound a little like him as well. Uh, when I sing. Um, and I just love his, his fingering. I love his lyrics. I love his approach to things, but I’ve really gotten into Billy Joel these days ’cause

I watched his biopic and I just so much more appreciate his music and, and where he know, just like James Taylor.

James Taylor doesn’t read music and he, he actually, you know, learned incorrect how to. Play a guitar, but the way he plays it obviously works for him. And Billy Joel’s the same way. He’s a little tiny guy. He’s got tiny little hands, but man, he, he, he knows how to write a song. He knows how to, everything comes together.

His melody’s great. So he’s probably, right now, he’s currently my favorite. I, I listen to him, I listen to him on the way here from my, from my client thing [00:41:00] ’cause, and I’m just like screaming in the car because he’s got some great, great lyrics and

Tim Melanson: Oh, yeah. He’s such a great songwriter. I’ve got quite a few of his songs in my repertoire. Uh, but I, I did read once about him. He said he didn’t. He didn’t really wanna be a singer. He was trying to write these songs for other people, and he just kind of got thrust into it, and I find that amazing. Really.

Bill Flynn: Yeah. So yeah, if you, so have you seen the documentary?

Tim Melanson: I saw parts of it. I don’t think I saw the

Bill Flynn: Oh, I would see the whole, it, it is fascinating.

It, it. is really good. It’s, it’s like five or six hours long, but it’s so good and it goes through his whole life and. You can see how he transformed from what he was doing. So he really learned how to be a great songwriter.

You know, he, some of his early songs were okay, but he really got into it and, and he has synesthesia, so he is got an advantage over most creatives, you know, so he is, you know, my daughter is synesthesia, so that has helped him. But still, I mean, he, and he’s like, he just has a great work ethic and he, you know, he just went at it.

[00:42:00] And so, um, I would highly recommend, it’s just fascinating how he. He should have been so much better. But you know, he drank way too much and ruined all

these lives in his life. And my guess is he would still be married to Kristi Brinkley if he didn’t drink.

And who wouldn’t wanna be married to Kristi, Frank and Brinkley, even if she’s 60 years old or 70 years old, she’s still gorgeous.

Right. Um, anyway, so it’s, it’s, it’s just a fascinating human story as well, so.

Tim Melanson: Absolutely. Well, I’m gonna check that out for sure then. Thank you so much for rocking out with me today, bill. This has been a lot of fun.

Bill Flynn: Good. Yeah, me too.

Tim Melanson: Right on to the listeners. Make sure you, you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information and we’ll see you next time with the Work at Home Rockstar Podcast.