Escaping the 9-5, Building Recurring Cashflow, and Leading with Culture with Matt O’Neill

Tim Melanson: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Work At Home Rockstar podcast. Today, I am talking to the owner of Matt O’Neill Real Estate. He’s also, uh, Tide Property Management, and also he’s a happiness coach. Super excited to hear more about that. But what he does is he helps people get out of the nine to five.

So I’m super excited to be rocking out today with Matt O’Neill. Hey, Matt, are you ready to rock?

Matt O’Neill: What’s up, Tim? Ready to rock

Tim Melanson: Ready to rock. So we always start off here on a good note. So tell me a story of success that we can be inspired by

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, man. I, uh, I thought I was gonna be an engineer my whole life because my dad was an engineer, my older brother was an engineer, my little brother became an engineer, and I was going to school for engineering. And, uh, I went actually on an internship to General Motors as an engineer, and I hated it. It was the w- it was like, it was like a slow death in a cubicle.

And I thought, "Man, I can’t do this." Like, I can’t, I can’t do this for the rest of my life, [00:01:00] this like stuck in a cubicle, pushing spreadsheets, trying to work up this corporate ladder And, uh, I w- I went back to s- to college that fall, and I walked into what I thought was, like, a, a fun department, the marketing department.

I’m like, "Man, this might be more fun than engineering." And this guy grabbed me at the front desk as I’m trying to talk to the girl about becoming a marketing major, and he’s like, "You know what? You should take my sales course." And I’m like, "Dude, I’m way above sales. Like, I’m an engineer, you know? This is… I, I’m not gonna be some salesperson."

And he said, "Well, you can say that, but you do need to sell your marketing ideas to the CEO, so my sales course will help you with that." He was a great salesman, by the way. His name’s Jim Eckert. He runs the sales department at Western Michigan University. I signed up for his course, and then I fricking loved it.

Like, I, I… It was just like, it was so fun because I like talking with people, and I enjoyed the psychology behind it. So bec- I switched my [00:02:00] major to sales. And then getting out of college, I took a 9:00 to 5:00 sales job because, you know, it’s kind of like the path. You, you get out of college, you take a job.

And then it was soul-crushing as well. I was selling the toner cartridges that go inside of copy machines,

Tim Melanson: Wow,

Matt O’Neill: and nobody cares, man. And it… And they weren’t even new toner cartridges. I was selling ones that were recycled. So we took old garbage out of the garbage in these recycled toner cartridges and filled them back in with toner, and then that’s what I sold through the streets of Denver, Colorado.

And the bosses were really, like, on, on us. Like, super oppressive. It was a Christmas Eve afternoon, like 4 o’clock or 3 o’clock, and we’re goofing around and laughing in the office because it’s Christmas Eve. And the boss comes out of his office and yells at us to get back to work. Like, it was total Scrooge scenario.

And I thought, "Okay, I can’t keep doing this, man." [00:03:00] So, um, I did love sales, but I just didn’t like that type of environment. So I thought, "How could I work for myself and use this skill that I enjoy?" And I decided I would get into real estate because no boss, right? And I can sell, and there’s nobody to r- you know, basically you are your own business owner.

So I got into real estate. But then what I didn’t know was that I would have 40 bosses, because every client that hired me was now my boss. And so I worked into this situation where I was really successful and learned a bunch about how to sell real estate, but my weekends weren’t actually free. It wasn’t the freedom I thought it was gonna be.

Um, people were upset, or, like, somebody was supposed to show their house and didn’t show up, and they’re calling me on a Saturday night, like, drunk and, and so upset about this thing that happened. Or somebody let the cat out. And I’m like, "Wow, how did I go from one [00:04:00] boss to 40 bosses?" And, um, then I thought, "Okay, so there’s gotta be a better way than this."

And I thought, "I will, I will teach other people how to sell the real estate, and so they can have all the bosses." And I did that, and started to just hire a bunch of people, and then let them work with the clients and train them. And that’s, that’s one of the things I do now. Um, it’s just, uh, there is a, there’s a book called The Cashflow Quadrants that was written by Robert Kiyosaki,

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Matt O’Neill: and he, he talked about the first quadrant is you work for somebody, and the next quadrant is you work for yourself, and that’s what I was when I was that real estate agent.

The next quadrant is you own a business. And I really didn’t own a business because all the people that worked for me selling real estate, they, they count on me, so I have a job. Even though I can… I’m in, I’m in my home right now, and they’re out there doing their thing, I still, I still need, um, you know, [00:05:00] I still need to, to coach them and help them and train them and all that stuff.

So I thought, "What is a business that has recurring cashflow that I could, that I could own and not work in?" So three years ago, we started a property management company, and that is a true B quadrant asset where I hired somebody to, to run it. I hired people to, to sell in it. I hired people to do all of it.

And I just sit back as an owner, not a CEO, and let those people run this particular company, and it’s, and it’s becoming really successful. I’ve got a lot of experience in sales and marketing and all these things that I learned over the years running a real estate company. So I’ll guide them and give them some advice, like I’m, I’m like on their board.

But, um, that is a true work from home style business asset

Tim Melanson: Wow. Matt, that was such a great story. [00:06:00] And you know what? I, I have a similar story, too, and I hope people listening can get that. It’s like every time you get to one point, you’re like, "Okay, that’s what I thought I wanted, but now I need to refine that." You keep on refining and refining and refining until you get to the point where you’re actually free, because I think a lot of people will get there.

And w- what I want to take out of that story specifically is that y- instead of quitting, right, and going like, "Wow, obviously this is not what I thought it was gonna be," and going back to the job, you just keep on refining a little bit more and getting a little bit closer to what it is that you wanted, right?

And that, I think that’s the key, is that it’s not a matter of, like, you- you’ll never get there. It’s just a matter of, like, it takes, uh, it’s one step at a time, right? That you learn something from what you just did, and you go, "Okay, well, now I have 40 bosses. What’s the next step," right? And I love that about the story.

It was so good for that, right?

Matt O’Neill: Well, I wanna, I wanna say something to the person listening to this that is thinking about [00:07:00] this but is really scared.

Tim Melanson: 嗯。

Matt O’Neill: Every step I was terrified. So when I had the 9:00 to 5:00 job selling the toner cartridges, I was making good money. To quit that and become a real estate agent, which I knew nothing about, and there was no paycheck coming in, was a terrifying step.

Tim Melanson: Yeah

Matt O’Neill: And then once I had all those clients, and though, though I didn’t like it, that paid my bills, and I’ve got four kids and a wife and a mortgage and all the other things. And I’m like, "If I stop serving these clients, that income goes away, and yeah, I’m taking a bet that I could hire people to do it, but I don’t know if that’s gonna work."

So there’s risk behind every one of th- these decisions. You know, just deciding to start a property management company, there was huge risk with that. I was paying somebody’s salary with no clients and no income. So there was, there was an, it was an investment into an idea that I thought could work but might not.

So the person that’s [00:08:00] listening to this that has this idea in their heart, my opinion is God wouldn’t give you a vision that you couldn’t accomplish. So the idea is there, but what’s standing in the way is massive fear that you could lose what you have and it might not work

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yep, uh, yeah, that. And I, I mean, ’cause when I was… I, I think my experience was that I got into the tech industry, actually I was a programmer, and it was right when the bubble was bursting. And so that safe job was not there ever, ever. I, I mean, I started working, and within a few months they started laying people off.

So I think for me, I was in that… I, I, I never felt like, oh… It was always like, "Oh, okay, I got a paycheck for another two weeks. I’m, I’m okay for now," right? So there was some fear where I currently was, right? So the fear of the next step of, like, breaking out on my own wasn’t that much different. I- it was just [00:09:00] now instead of me sitting there and going like, "I can’t do anything about it."

Like, I mean, if that, if I get laid off, I, I, I can’t… There’s nothing I can do. I can’t work harder and try to keep that job, right? So when I started my own business though, I could work harder. I could, you know, sort of like pivot and like, "Okay, well maybe I can do this. May-" Like, there was lots of other ideas that I could have that could change my outcome over the next two weeks versus sitting in that cubicle and going like, "Hope they don’t lay me off," right?

Matt O’Neill: You, you bring up a point that most people in a nine-to-five never consider. They think… Because I, I’ve, I, I hire people who have nine-to- fives all the time to become real estate agents and, and be independent business owners as a real estate agent, which you are. You, you basically are running your own business when you’re an agent.

And they’re always like, "Yeah, but I got a paycheck every two weeks." And I, and, and I say the same thing that you just brought up. It doesn’t matter how safe you think it is, someone else could [00:10:00] fire you at any moment. And if they do, yes, you can go get a new job, but that safety that you think you have is this illusion.

Once you create your own thing, no one can take it from you. It’s completely up to you, and if you bet on yourself and you know that you’re willing to put in the work, then, then you have more freedom than the person that thinks they have this security with this nine-to-five. Like, I think there’s more security being a business owner than there is working for somebody

Tim Melanson: I, I agree with that for sure. Although it’s probably harder to see until you’re there, right?

Matt O’Neill: Or until you get fired, it, you know, or whatever. Your business implodes and you didn’t see it coming, or your boss decides that he’s got an issue with you and you didn’t know that that was happening, and

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Matt O’Neill: taken from you, and you’re like, "Oh, that, this was a false sense of s- of security."

I was just on a podcast last week with somebody that was a C-level member of some international [00:11:00] corporation. The corporation merged with another corporation, and then they downsized the C-suite. And he’s like, "Man, I, I put in 20 years." And, you know, you would think you work your way up that corporate ladder and you’re at this big level, and the corporation’s doing great under your leadership, that you’re safe.

Uh, but it, you know, cor- corporations can merge, and then they can downsize people. Like, it’s, it’s just out of… It was out of his control

Tim Melanson: Wow. Well, now also with taking those risks, sometimes things don’t go as planned, and I do like to talk about the bad notes because that is another fear. People are like, "Well, what if I make a mistake," right? Uh, and, and those mistakes will happen, and I’m wondering, can you share with me something that didn’t go as planned and how you recovered from that?

Matt O’Neill: Absolutely. Yeah, so I s- uh, I started a, a home flipping business three years ago and I thought, "Oh, this’ll [00:12:00] be, this’ll be fun. This’ll be something new. Uh, I’ll have the agents that are out there f- looking at properties, and if they see one that they think would be a good property that, that we could purchase and then put some, you know, some, uh, money into and then turn around and sell it, that I’d split the profits with them."

And so we ended up with 26 in the first year, and it was, it was going what we thought really well, and I… But to get the loans for all these properties, I used hard money, and we had 4 million in, in loans out. And something that I couldn’t see coming, the government decided to double interest rates in 30 days, and we’re sitting on 13 mid-construction properties, and all of a sudden they’re worth way less than we purchased them for after we’re putting 50, 60, 100K into each of them.

And my wife is sitting there [00:13:00] with me as we’re looking at this impossible situation. We’re like, "Man, we don’t have $4 million to pay these loans off, and all these properties, I can’t just put on the market and sell. They’re all, like, studs and construction sites." And, and even when we’re finishing them, we’re, we’re having to bring 60,000 in cash or 100,000 in cash to the table just to get out of it.

And she’s like, "Man, they might take our house." And I said… I’m like, "That, this was a, this was a riskier situation than I expected." the, the, and this was, uh… It was a really tough situation for us to be in. Um, at that moment, I thought, "Man, I didn’t, I didn’t think I was betting it all." It just seemed like a good business venture, that I know real estate, I know these, I know what houses are worth.

What I couldn’t see was what I couldn’t see. I couldn’t see that the government would double interest rates and then values would plummet in 30 days. Like, I… That was, that [00:14:00] was what would seem like a black swan event that you couldn’t see coming. Um, ultimately, we ended up taking our lumps, and one at a time I sold each of the properties for losses, and we got out.

And it was July, I think. It took me, like, eight months to finish them and then just, and, and just get out of it. And then, and then that was great. We got the $4 million paid off. We lost a bunch of money. Um, but I didn’t lose it all. The 4 million in, in hard money would’ve, would’ve taken us out, but there was enough as we sold them that we got it back that we could pay the, the, the loans off and get out of that tough situation.

What I learned from that was, um, don’t risk your house.

Tim Melanson: Yeah. It’s a good lesson.

Matt O’Neill: It was a great lesson, and I, and I promised my wife I’d never do that to us again. I just read this awesome book on finances by Morgan Housel, um, called The [00:15:00] Psychology of Money, and he had a line in there that I circled and circled and then wrote down and then thought about a whole lot because of the experience I had.

And he said, "Don’t risk money you do need chasing after returns you don’t need."

Tim Melanson: Wow

Matt O’Neill: And he said, and it was exactly what I did. I, I needed money to keep my house and have a place for my kids to live, but I didn’t need the extra returns from this home flipping company. So could we have flipped maybe two or three homes at a time instead of 13 at a time?

Absolutely. I just didn’t… And this is what he said. He, um, he said, "During the course of the United States’ GDP, it’s always up and to the right," and he had, like, 200 years of up and to the right. And then he said, "During this 200 years of up and to the right, we’ve had five major world wars, four presidents have been assassinated, the market has dropped by 10% or more 100 times.

The market has dropped by 33% or [00:16:00] more, like, 30 times." He said, "So whatever bet you’re about to make with leverage and debt, can you, can you hold this thing if everything drops by 30% in value?" And he said, "If you can’t, then you shouldn’t make that bet." And that’s exactly what happened to us, is I’m holding a bag of $4 million and everything I thought w- had value had dropped by 30%.

It was just one of those black swan moments for real estate that you can’t… And this is, it’s his whole point. You can’t see coming the next president assassination or major war that, that’s gonna happen, that’s gonna disrupt everything, or COVID, the pandemic that can come and change the world. So, um, that would be the lesson there, is that if you’re gonna make a bet, make sure you can withstand a 30% drop.

Tim Melanson: Wow. That’s… I can’t even add to that. That’s incredibly good, good sense, right? And, uh, and I think that that ends up being something that does happen to people who are, well, I mean, [00:17:00] a lot of us entrepreneurs are, I, I don’t know, wanna say overconfident, but maybe overconfident is the right word, right? We, we, we have this very, very positive outlook of what could happen, which is why we’re in business in the first place, right?

We, we, we didn’t let the fear stop us. And so oftentimes we can be presented with these opportunities that we’re seeing and we’re going like, "Wow, I can’t lose," right? But the thing is is that, like you just said, there are circumstances around us that do happen. Like, okay, fine, we do have the control to pivot and to move and all that stuff, but, but also there are some things that are gonna happen throughout the term of your business that you can’t see happening, and there has to be some sort of- Mitigation of that, right?

And I, I think that’s really, really good sense. If it’s 30%, that’s a really good number. It’s clear, right? If we can just sort of keep that in mind, can I lose 30% and still be okay? I don’t want [00:18:00] to, but that, that is a good place to start, and I like that. Thanks for that. That’s a really good one

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, in 2008 and 2009 I was in real estate, and, um, I- a lot of people took their life during that time because they… I mean, this is just, they weren’t able to… They were over-leveraged.

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Matt O’Neill: And, um, and I saw people just filing for bankruptcy. I saw people losing their house. I saw people doing short sales. It was a very…

It was just really common. And people that were well over-leveraged were, were in big trouble. And then, and if you tie your worth to your net worth, it’s gonna be a bad situation. But we do need this money to survive, and sometimes we think, "Oh, I’m not gonna make it." Um, but I, I thought at that time, I’m like, "Okay, I’m not gonna over-leverage," and then I still did it.

And it’s exactly what you said, man. We… To be, to start your own business, you have to have a level of boldness to get u- through the [00:19:00] fear, and you have to have a level of confidence and optimism it’s gonna work. So, and this is what Sean Housel, or, I’m sorry, Morgan Housel talks about in his book too. He says, "The thing that will get you in trouble is always over-leveraging and over-optimism."

Tim Melanson: Um, yeah

Matt O’Neill: you have to have a le- he said getting rich requires boldness and optimism. He said staying wealthy requires some cynicism and skepticism

Tim Melanson: Oh, man. So good. So good. And I can, I can map all my mistakes to that, all of them, every single one of them. The big ones can all be mapped to me just being overconfident and going, "Yeah, yeah, I’ll be fine."

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, so, so I, I wanna, I wanna finish this whole thought and put a bow on it. Um, the… So he’s like, "All right, you still have to take risk. You have to, because that’s what got you here." But he, he said, he said, "I want you to think of your money as a barbell, and one part of the barbell is the money [00:20:00] you need to survive.

So this is the money for your home, the money for your groceries, the money that takes care of your family. That you can never touch." And so whatever that amount is, maybe it’s six months worth of savings, or, um, maybe it’s paying off the house, which is what s- when we got, when we got out of the big mess and we paid all the loans off, the next thing we did is we said, "We’ll pay this house off."

And that was, like, our intense focus so that if the house is paid off, they could never take the place that we live, and that… And, and we were able to do that in a couple of years and, um… But then what’s crazy, man, it came, it crept back in again. Uh, a huge deal showed up. I’m like, "Oh, this is a winner." And I’m like, "We’ll just mortgage the house and get…"

And my wife is like, "No. You said, you said it’s a barbell. This is the money that makes us safe. The house we’ve paid off, so you can’t touch that." And so once you have your one piece that keeps you safe, whatever that amount is, you don’t touch it, [00:21:00] and then you risk the stuff that’s above that. Um, so that’s, so as long as I can remember that, I’m saying it out loud here on this podcast so that I stick with it.

Tim Melanson: And having a sane spouse is a good thing too, right?

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, she, and she, she is overly cautious, which totally balances out my boldness

Tim Melanson: Yeah. Yeah, my spouse is the same thing. She’s very, very cautious, and exactly what you just said, "You said that we needed this part about…" And I, I’m, I’m like, "Oh, you’re right, I did say that. Okay, fine."

Matt O’Neill: And, and you respect her, and I respect my wife. And I’m like, "Man," I’m like, "We are a really good team." I’m like, "I…" So the reason I was five minutes late jumping on is that I was looking at a triplex that hit the market this morning, and the l- the fourth quadrant of the cashflow quadrants is I, which is investor, where I don’t own a business, I own investments.

And I, I went and looked at this triplex. It just looked like a great deal, and my wife [00:22:00] is like, "Well, where is the cash from the triplex gonna come from?" And she’s all stressed about that. And I said, "Well, I own this other piece of real estate in cash, and it has a value of 400,000, so I’ll take a small note out on that, and that’ll be the down payment, and this property will cashflow."

And she’s like, "Man, I’m super… I don’t know." And I said, "Well, in some cases, your skepticism is gonna be something we shouldn’t do, and in this case, my boldness is, is telling us that this is something that’s gonna help our family in the long run." So, so both can balance each other out

Tim Melanson: Agreed. Yeah, that’s awesome. So l- let’s talk about, I mean, you mentioned earlier the sales, and I, hey, I agree. I think sales should be taught, like, at length in schools, uh, you know, as early as you can. Because really, even if you do decide to be an employee your whole life, you’re still gonna have to sell your ideas.

And, uh, but now, w- when people become self-employed or they start their own business, y- you, I, I mean, it’s even more important [00:23:00] now, and I don’t think that that’s something that people put enough emphasis on. I think that they think, oh, I’m a great whatever it is, web designer or hairdresser, whatever it happens to be.

I’ll be fine. But you learn real quick that no, no, you won’t be fine unless you get out there and do something about it. And so I’m wondering, how do you get the fans? How do you get people in the door to be, uh, you know, to like you, I, I guess and, and do business with you?

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, sales is the lifeblood of every business. And, uh, I’ve got, I’ve got friends who buy underperforming businesses and turn them around, and the biggest lever is sales and sales systems. Um, so it… And I’ve also heard the, uh, y- CEOs really only have a couple of roles, maybe three roles, and it’s building a team, and it’s being the chief sales officer, and the chief marketing mind.

Uh, and that doesn’t, you know, people are like, "Man, that doesn’t seem right. A CEO shouldn’t really [00:24:00] have to be involved in marketing and sales." Well, if you watch companies that were absolutely thriving, that then stopped thriving a- after a CEO successor takes over, a lot of times they hire the operational guy,

Tim Melanson: Oh, yeah

Matt O’Neill: the COO, the one that, that understands how to make the widgets or make the system run right or, you know, do all the operating.

And then great, the operations are efficient, but they start losing customers and the company gets into trouble,

Tim Melanson: Hmm.

Matt O’Neill: and then they, they have to bring back in that creative sales forward-thinking person. So if you’re thinking about owning your own business, you have to be relentlessly focused on improving your ability in sales and marketing.

It is all about customer acquisition. You can’t be more efficient with customers that you don’t have. You can’t have better operations when there’s nothing to operate on because you didn’t make enough sales. So that’s my obsession, is how can we get [00:25:00] more clients? How can we get more ideal clients? Where do they live?

How can we find them, and how can we market to them in an effective way? If it’s an obsession, then you study everything you can study, you read every book that you can read, and then you’re thinking about it in the shower, and, like, new ideas come to you. I… Like, I’m always testing and trying. Um, I love talking with other people to see what they’re testing and trying.

Um, so I feel like you kinda have to have a test budget where you’re making small bets all the time. Like, um, I started a YouTube channel. It was a bet. You know, I didn’t know if, if, uh, having a YouTube channel was gonna be successful in real estate or not. There were some people who were doing it to a high level of success.

The cost was pretty high. It was like 50 grand for the year to do this. I, I took a risk on it, and then it paid off, and then all of a sudden we’re the number one YouTube channel, and people from all over the country are watching these videos for long periods of time, having [00:26:00] a lot of trust in me, and then, uh, coming to work with our team.

Other things I try out and I take a bet on, they don’t work, so then we cut them. I usually want to give something that we’re testing six months to 12 months. So, um, that’s the other piece of it. If you’re gonna try something out, you have to have enough patience to see it through.

Tim Melanson: I agree. Now, when we talk about, you know, m- building a band, right? I mean, finding people in your business to work for you, whether it be partners or whether it be subcontractors or employees, is there sort of a process that you go through to make sure you’re finding the right people?

Matt O’Neill: Yeah, man. It’s the most important thing. Uh, our real estate company was named the number one place to work out of 470,000 companies in the state of South Carolina.

Tim Melanson: Congratulations

Matt O’Neill: thank you, man. It’s like the one thing that I’m, like, the most excited about is that people like to work at the place that we’ve created.

But they like to work together. Like, uh, if you look at what do people [00:27:00] want in their workplace, the most important things are not compensation, but that’s one of them. So you have to, you have to pay… In my opinion, I wanna pay better than average. I don’t wanna say, "Okay, this is what, this is what everybody’s paying.

I wanna pay above that." I don’t wanna pay the most premium because then I won’t be able to afford other things. It’s like an NFL salary cap. You only have so much money. Um, but, but I’m gonna invest a little bit more in my people than some other areas, um, because the number one expense is also turnover.

But then you can’t have any turds. No turds can work for you. So just a-holes, not okay. Backstabbers, step on other people to get ahead type people, high performers with prima donna attitudes, it doesn’t go well no matter what the job is. Um, so I, I look for first when I’m hiring somebody, and this could be a partner.

I only have one partner. [00:28:00] Um, so a partnership is like a marriage. Like, you gotta be really sure because a divorce is super ugly and, and difficult. Um, but if… So if it’s a partner, man, you better know this person really well and say, "Man, can I spend my life with this person?"

Tim Melanson: Hmm.

Matt O’Neill: Um, but if it’s a vendor even, they’re gonna, they’re…

The way that they behave is gonna be a reflection of you. And definitely if it’s somebody that’s gonna work for you, um, I start with core values. So in the book Good to Great, he talks about you should set five core values for your company and no more, and this is, these five words should mean exactly who you’re looking for.

You should hire people that match those, and you should fire them if they don’t match them. So I just took that to heart, and that’s what we do. Our, our first core value is that we work with integrity. That’s doing the right thing when nobody’s looking. That’s our, so that’s our one-liner definition about what that means.

So then people that we see doing the wrong thing, we’re like, [00:29:00] "Man, you’re not a fit here." like, "Hey, you s- you stole this client from somebody. That’s, that’s a, that’s a lack of integrity. It’s just not a fit with who we are." And because I take the people that do the wrong thing out, all the ones that do the right thing wanna stay because they’re like, "I don’t like working with people who do the wrong thing.

Like, I wanna be able to just trust who I work with." Our second core value is kindness, which is we’re kind to people even when they’re mad. And you work with kind people that do the right thing. Kind people that do the right thing wanna work there too. You attract who you, who… You know, like, so the whole company now has an energy field, and people that are like that are like, "Man, I’m looking for a place that’s like this."

And they come in, and now you have to protect it. As soon as someone’s unkind, and we’ve had a lot of them, um, man, they can’t stay. And e- sometimes they are super big producers, and they’re like, like we, we had a, we had a [00:30:00] girl that was running the entire operations system of, of the property management company.

She was like the go-to piece, and yet four people quit under her leadership in eight months. And I’m like, "This isn’t right." And she, she was putting on a front to us like she was doing everything right and it was always these people’s fault. But the evidence showed that it was the opposite. So we had to do the tough thing and let go of the leader, and then that means that leadership fell on me and my partner because we didn’t have a leader, and then we had to go hire and train and, like…

It, it can be difficult to make the right decision about a people problem. But ultimately, you’ll always be further ahead if you’re putting your culture before your own comfort

Tim Melanson: I agree 100%. And, uh, I mean, that’s something that’s very difficult, I imagine, for any business owner to look at somebody who’s producing extremely well. And I mean, that, that’s just, uh, you know, a lot of human nature is [00:31:00] just, uh, big head, right? You know, you’re, you’re doing really well. You’re performing really well.

You tend to, you know, some certain people will tend to start treating other people poorly because of that’s, that’s what’s going on. And from a business owner’s perspective, you’re looking at the numbers and going, "Wow, this is going really, really well." But what you’re not seeing, as you mentioned, is that everybody else, and it’s, it’s just a toxic person in that, in that group.

And unless you only need that one person, then everybody else is gonna, is gonna be tainted, and you’re, you’re better off to get rid of the person that is performing in those situations, and that could be a, a tough thing to do, right?

Matt O’Neill: It, it is. And toxic is a good word for it

Tim Melanson: Mm-hmm.

Matt O’Neill: It, and sometimes, sometimes people are driven to perform because of emotional things going on inside where they don’t, where they don’t like themselves a whole lot, and so they’re trying to perform at a high level to prove that they’re worthwhile. [00:32:00] Well, if they don’t like themselves, they will project that own self-hate onto other people, and it’ll show up as coldness and a toxic work environment.

And it, you know it, I, I’m a happiness coach. I help people with these, uh, emotions and, um, but man, they’ve gotta want to as well.

Tim Melanson: Yeah.

Matt O’Neill: So I, I’ve tried… You know, my first step, because I, I also value kindness, is to, is to offer some coaching and some support. Um, but we can’t, we can’t offer coaching and support forever when it’s harming other people

Tim Melanson: Yeah, and I mean, that kind of just goes to the next step, which is that person will never really look for help until there’s a problem. And if they keep on getting rewarded by, you know, we keep getting rid of the, the good people that are doing that are n- you know, underperforming, whatever it happens to be, and leaving that person in those positions, well, then they’re never gonna know that it’s a problem.

But if they keep on getting let go, [00:33:00] well, then eventually they’ll get to the point, "Well, maybe it’s me," and maybe they will go and seek that help. So in a way, you’re doing them a service by, by actually letting them go, you know, in a kind way so that they can recognize the problem and maybe go and figure out what’s driving them to act the way that they’re drive- that they’re acting, right?

Matt O’Neill: Uh, yeah. I, I agree, man. Sometimes, sometimes it is the wake-up call that they need. I can only hope that for the people that we’ve let go, that if, uh, that we’ve had those conversations with. Like, "Hey, we, we like you as a human being. Um, we think you can grow. Hopefully this is a, a opportunity for you to, to grow in these ways."

But I, y- you know, you don’t know if they will. It’s, it’s up to them

Tim Melanson: Yeah. So let’s move to your, to your solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your business right now

Matt O’Neill: Man, the most exciting thing in my business is working less

Tim Melanson: Yep.

Matt O’Neill: had a, I had a mantra last [00:34:00] year, which is, uh, which is do less. Because we’ve got four kids. My oldest is 12, and she’s already, like, so… She spends so much time in her cheerleading and with her friends. Uh, I’ve heard the statistic that you spend 80% of all the time you’ll ever spend with a child up until the age of 12, and that once they hit the age of 12, you only have 20% of the time you’ll ever spend with them for the rest of their life. And I’m like, man, that’s pretty, that’s pretty tough because I got one that’s 12. My 80% is already gone. And then I’ve got another that’s 10, so I’ve got two years left of that 80%, and, uh, another one that’s eight, and then another one that’s four. And I was on the board for Make-A-Wish South Carolina, and I’m very…

I’m a big fan of that charity. And it didn’t seem like a lot. It was, uh, you know, a meeting once a [00:35:00] quarter and fundraising and things like that. But there’s… E- even though I’m passionate about helping the kids and I’m passionate about the organization, and it didn’t seem like much time, it was psychic energy that was going into it.

And then I had this podcast, and my podcast was helping people be happier, and it had nothing to do with business and success. I just was… I’m just passionate about helping people with mental health. And that didn’t seem like much time. Just, you know, it’s just an hour episode every week, but y- you know, finding great guests and preparing great questions and recording the episode and then promoting the episode and all the things that go into it.

So these were two big things that I really enjoyed, that I was passionate about, and I shut both of them down last year. And then, um, and then I let go of my office at work, and now I’m working… And, and we built this hide-a-bed in our guest bedroom, you know, [00:36:00] that is… So now I, I get to work out here. And I did all of this intentionally so that when I get done with work, I’m just here with my kids.

And, um, and that when I’m done with work, there’s not these other little obligations that are also pulling at my attention so that I can spend these last few years before the age of 12 soaking it in. And, uh, and last night… So we did, we did something else too, and this is a pretty cool tip. We decided, uh, like maybe eight months ago, we would do no screens Monday through Wednesday And that includes me.

Um, and screens, that’s my phone, right? So they’re like, "If I can’t be on my iPad and I can’t be watching TV, you can’t be checking an email on your phone." So I deleted the email app off my phone. I deleted all the social media apps off my phone so my phone would become less interesting. I could still, of course, log into my computer and check my email or log into my [00:37:00] computer and, and check the social media things.

Um, but so yesterday was Monday, and it’s a no screen day, and I’m tired as heck. You know, it’s the end of the day, and Mondays are big days for me. And my son starts crying because my wife is taking my daughter to cheerleading and sh- and he’s like, "Oh man, I wanna be with mommy." I’m like, "All right, dude, what do you wanna do?"

And he’s like, "I don’t… I just wanna be with mommy." And I said, "What if we took a ride to the big park?" like, "All right, I could be kinda into that." And, uh, I gra- and then I went to my 10-year-old and I’m like, "Hey, I’m thinking of taking Brady to this park. Do you wanna go?" She’s like, "Yeah, I could be kinda into that."

And so we get to this big park and played tag around this park for like two hours. It was a beautiful night. We’re running all through the park. [00:38:00] We get home. My daughter’s like, "Hey, do you wanna, do you wanna play a game of horse in the driveway?" And I’m like, "Sh, why not?" So I’m shooting hoops with my daughter, and this is one of my, my goals is to, is to play with my kids.

So the no screen thing Monday through Wednesday, it’s, it is more work, it is more effort, but man, I’ve got memories of chasing my kids around that park and playing horse with my daughter that I wouldn’t have had if w- they were allowed to watch TV or, or sit on an iPad and I was allowed to look at my phone

Tim Melanson: Hmm. Wow. Brilliant. That’s amazing. So, ah, wow, so much there. So now you obviously help people to get out of that nine to five. So how can people find out more about, you know, being able to create those memories like you do?

Matt O’Neill: Well, I do, I, I do do happiness coaching, and, and if anybody’s interested in kind of my philosophies on that, I wrote a book that talks about how to get out of the eight primary negative [00:39:00] emotions that keep us from happiness, and then how to choose positive emotions. There’s two parts to the book, and the best place to find it is on Amazon.

It’s called The Good Mood Revolution. Um, and that’s a really good place to, to start to plug into the, to the way that I think

Tim Melanson: Awesome. One more question. Let’s get into music a little bit here. So tell me, who’s your favorite rock star or band?

Matt O’Neill: Man, I’ve had a lot of them over the years. When, when I was in high school I was, I was obsessed with The Beatles, and, um, and it… I think to me it’s the greatest band of all time. I just heard that what made The Beatles so extraordinary was Paul was classically trained in music, so he had all the musical training to, to keep the scales right and, and follow the patterns that good music is, and John had no training.

And so John was doing all these [00:40:00] out of the box things, and then Paul was, like, putting some structure behind John’s wild ideas, and which is what made them such an incredible music group. So, um, that’s… I, I’m just gonna stick with them

Tim Melanson: Yeah, Beatles my favorite too. I, that, I say that same story many times. It’s actually a- amazing what they were able to do because of that. And you know what? Business follows that quite a bit too, right? I mean, if you’re thinking, uh, within a box, well then you’re not gonna come up with these crazy ideas that nobody has thought of before, right?

Matt O’Neill: But if you’re all out of the box and you’re super crazy and there’s nobody keeping some structure, it can just sound messy and, and not, a- and not actually be great. So you need both pieces.

Tim Melanson: Absolutely. Right on. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Matt, for rocking out with me today. This has been an, an awesome episode

Matt O’Neill: Tim, I really appreciate it

Tim Melanson: Awesome. And to the listeners, make sure you go to workathomerockstar.com for more information, and we’ll see you next time on the Work At Home Rockstar