After helping thousands of people overcome hand pain and numbness, he noticed a pattern emerge. Frustrated by the complex and inefficient process of getting help, not to mention the cost, people were ignoring their hand problems for far too long.
And it all boiled down to an information gap – a lack of access to expert, actionable information and education about hand problems. Dr. Wren started HandGuyMD to fill that gap.
HandGuyMD has a goal of helping 1 million people save time, money, and stress, getting relief from hand pain and numbness, and Dr. Wren looks forward to helping you next.
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In This Episode:
[0:24] The good note: A story of business success
[2:27] The bad note: What didn’t go as planned?
[6:43] How does he get and stay good at what he does?
[14:55] What makes a successful home office?
[20:45] On learning from others
[33:46] Guest solo: What’s exciting in his business right now?
[37:51] Where to find Wren
Dr. Wren McCallister: [00:00:00] Are you a work at home rockstar or do you dream of becoming one? Then you found the right podcast. Your host, Tim Lanson, talks with successful work at home rock stars to learn their secrets and help you in your journey. Are you ready to rock?
Tim Melanson: Here’s Tim. Hello and welcome to today’s episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast.
Today is exciting. We’re talking to an orthopedic hand surgeon and what he does is he helps people identify. Overcome and prevent hand problems like pain and numbness. Man, I’m sure in today’s day and age with everybody on a computer and a phone, that’s probably business is probably booming for you, but we’re rocking out today with Ren McAllister.
So Ren, you ready to rock? Yeah, let’s roll. Perfect. So we always start off here on a good note. So tell me a story of success in your business that we can be inspired by.
Dr. Wren McCallister: Sure. Well, I think one of the key things I’ve noticed over the years is there’s a sort of an information gap that’s, uh, challenged people and led them to really prevent themselves from presenting to get help for injuries.
And so one of the major highlight, one of the ways I can highlight this [00:01:00] information gap was there was a young lady we took care of was from another country and had a really bad leg infection. And one of my buddies, anesthesia doctor said, Hey, is there any way you can help? We can help this individual. So I took a look at what they’ve done over the years.
And it was, it struck me. It was just clear that they just had the wrong information. They were trying their best, but they really just didn’t know exactly what to do and have the right information. So, so through his friends we’re able to get her, uh, over to this country and, and were able to provide some care that was pretty standard.
I’d done it tons of times and in a trauma hospital when I was training and, and we were actually able to save her legs. She was supposed to have an amputation back there, and we were able to provide what. Really is, it wasn’t magic, it was just standard care that they just didn’t have the right information and supportive care.
We had a great team and, and she was able to go back and, and finish high school and have dreams of becoming a doctor someday. And so it just highlighted to me the importance of having the right information. And without the right information, you can get down a path that’ll send you into, into confusion and, and oftentimes also even lead you down a path where you can, you’re, you’re worse off than [00:02:00] you would be.
So, And that, that sort of parallels with what I, what I do in my hand surgery practice. And what I’ve observed is that people struggle with getting the right information and that’s why I had started Hand Guy MD was to try to help people provide that, help people with that information. Wow,
Tim Melanson: that’s amazing.
Also, highlights that you probably should get a second opinion when something, when you get a diagnosis. That’s crazy, right?
Dr. Wren McCallister: Yeah. Well unfortunately in that country, all the opinions were the same. It just, it’s just a matter of information. So, but yeah, all the opinions were kind of the same. They tried it.
It wasn’t the, it wasn’t thing was bad, they just, it was incomplete care and they just, they just couldn’t, they couldn’t quite get over the hump cause they didn’t know what to do. So, but yeah, definitely though, definitely anything serious? You want a second? You want a second opinion? No question.
Tim Melanson: Wow. Yeah, absolutely.
Okay. So now with the good notes, sometimes there’s some bad notes, sometimes things don’t go as planned. I’m sure that’s pretty crazy in your area. Yeah. Uh, but I’m wondering, can you share with us something that didn’t go as planned and how you recovered?
Dr. Wren McCallister: Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that’s interesting is, is you know, when you think about, [00:03:00] you know, if you’re starting a business or you’re doing something as a surgeon, we’re all, we’re very ordered.
We like things to proceed with structure. And so, you know, it was a few years ago when this. Idea, sort of, sort of germinated and realized, you know, hey, there’s an issue here, there’s a challenge and, and I can help overcome it. And it’s like, okay, well this is what it would look like and, and this is what, this is how I can do it.
And start to put stuff together. And all of a sudden, two, three years go by and it’s like, I. Dude, what’s going on? Like, I’m still, you know, you’re still putting it together. And so there, it’s kind of the idea, there’s really no perfect time. And so finally it just last year just kind of crystallizes like, look, it, just, just start here and, and just keep moving forward and put it piece by piece.
And so it won’t be complete when it starts, but it’s enough to help people. And what, I guess what got me was I looked back and said, look, I have an opportunity to help a tremendous amount of people far more than the thousands I help in my local practice. And every year that I waste, that’s fewer people that I can help.
So, so that was kind of the point, just reached kind of a, kind of a pressure point where it’s like, I, you gotta just get this going and [00:04:00] start helping people. Cuz even if it’s not perfect, it’s still gonna help people and it’s gonna build over time and, and, and you make further distinctions as you get going too.
So I think the biggest thing is it’s doesn’t have to be perfect. There’s no perfect time and you just gotta get it going. And that was kind of the big, for me, the big challenge was I had this idea of what it would look like. And it just, you know, myself with the practice and busy, it just kind as you get going, uh, it can kind of get a, get away from you a little bit and you gotta dial it in and just, just get going and get after it.
Tim Melanson: Isn’t that a great analogy for pretty much any business. Yeah. You know? Yeah. You know, you gotta, you gotta get out there. I mean, that’s the thing is that things kind of like crystallize and they, they get more focused as you keep moving down a path. Right. But if you’re just sort of waiting for it to be perfect, you know, you might never get out of the gate.
Dr. Wren McCallister: Yeah, no, that’s true and it’s an easy thing to do. I mean, you, you, you know, I, I can read about this stuff and I, intellectually I knew it was the right thing to do, but then conceptually it’s like, okay, well this is what it’s gotta look like to serve people at the highest level. And then you realize the [00:05:00] problem is when you keep.
Thinking like that, you never actually actually really step in. And so you gotta just get going and then, and, and trust that a no one will see it in the beginning anyways, which is okay. And then also as you get going, you’re still helping people. So, uh, it comes from the right place and then it, it is just a matter of, of continuing to evolve it over time.
Tim Melanson: Agree. Well, and that’s a good point. I mean, very few people will see it, but guess who will see it? The people who will see it were the people that, that really need it and are looking for it. Yep, that’s right. And they don’t care what, you know, what it looks like. They don’t care that it’s not the, you know, best designed, you know, resource that they can find.
They just need the information right now. Right. Yeah, no,
Dr. Wren McCallister: very true. Very true. And that’s a challenge cuz a lot of times if, if, if you’re in your area, you’re an expert in your area, you know what it should look like. But it’s amazing how people on the other side have no concept. So what you, what you, so you know, for music, for you, what you may think is a terrible song.
Someone may be like, man, that’s actually pretty good. Our, our M R I technician is AC or their MRI [00:06:00] manager’s. Actually back at the Grammy’s right now, he had his first solo album come out and, uh, And he’s like, oh, this isn’t perfect. And I summit, dude, you can whale. Like, this is awesome. Like, this sounds really, really good.
I, you know, listen, I just li I was sitting, working and just listen to his entire album and it’s like, I, I didn’t want to turn it off. It didn’t, you know, if it was like perfect, you know, I, it just melded in and outta of the background and stuff. And it’s like, so for what? For something that he thought, oh, there’s a problem with this, a problem with that.
For me it was like totally perfect. And that’s kind of the analogy there. It’s like we, we kind of get this in our head of what it should be,
Tim Melanson: but really, yeah. I. Yep. Uh, well music is a really good example of that cuz I think that especially nowadays, I mean, most, you know, music musicians from the seventies would consider today’s music to be not very good.
Um, yeah. But, you know, they’re selling mo boatloads of records and the, you know, well not records, but singles nowadays. Uh, so yeah, I mean, everything is very subjective and, you know, for the person that’s looking for it, they, you know, they just need the information. Right. Yep, that’s true. Very true. So now let’s go, [00:07:00] let’s get into, uh, a little bit of the practice and, and I mean, you, you have a practice.
It’s interesting that it’s called a practice, right? Yeah. Yep. But what is your, you know, approach to getting good at what you do and staying good at what you
Dr. Wren McCallister: do? Uh, Well, that’s, that’s excellent. Yeah, it really is. You know, uh, we had to come from sports, you know, perfect practice makes perfect in, in the sense that, you know, you want to drill fundamentals, but really, it, it really is about repetitive and doing it over and over.
So I specialize in hand surgery. I’ve got nine partners. We all have a subspecialty, for example. And what that does, it allows you to get really, really good at what you’re doing, allows you to make distinctions faster and faster. And it’s very efficient for someone on the other side. So, Uh, the only way you get there though, is to focus on that area and drilling on the fundamentals, and, and it’s just, it’s no different than a sport.
There’s just, there’s basics. You, you know, sort of block and tackle, follow the fundamentals in anything that you do, and then you’ve gotta repeat it and you’ve gotta do it over and over. And it’s, I. You know, we, we had this saying in surgery, it’s, you know, there, there’s a chef in the kitchen, right? And they’re making, they’re [00:08:00] making a cake.
And there’s some people get great outcomes and other people don’t, and they’ll tell you what they do in the operating room, but they don’t realize something. They don’t even know something, a step they’re doing that they don’t even think to articulate. And it’s kind of, until you do it over and over and over, you start to make those distinctions.
And maybe the same thing for you if you’re writing a song or something you may not even understand. What you’re doing, you’re just kind of doing it instinctively, and the only way you get to that point is over and over and over and over. You just keep practicing and just keep drilling it. Uh, and you can’t do it over and over if you don’t love it.
And that’s kind of, that’s, that’s a key point. So enjoy what you’re doing and you just have to really get after it and, and stick with the fundamentals. And, and then by keeping your scope narrow, that enables you to go deeper and deeper in that area of expertise, which I think helps as well. It gets challenging when you start to spread out, then you start to be like, oh, I haven’t done this case in three months.
You know, you have to, you know, start reading and things. I just, last week we were doing a case I hadn’t done a little while, but know how to do it. And there’s a series of steps and it was, I was telling the [00:09:00] nurse afterwards, I said, it’s interesting. I, there, I call ’em idiot guides. They’re technique guides that, that just kind of show you the steps.
And, and uh, I said, you know, it’s interesting. I, I think I did a step out of order, but it didn’t matter because. I did intuitively what needed to be done. It came out perfect and it was like, you know, it, it was, it was this idea that, you know, I, I’ve done this so much now, I, I, I know how to do this and I don’t need a, a guide.
I just need a, a piece of metal, uh, and a bone, and then I can make it right cuz I, I understand what to do. The only way you get there is by doing something over and over and practicing. That’s how you get good at it. Yeah. Wow.
Tim Melanson: That was packed with a bunch of cool stuff to talk about. Like, uh, number one, one of the other interesting things you mentioned is, is, uh, when you’re, when you’re teaching something to somebody else, it really gives you an opportunity to figure out exactly what you’re doing.
Cuz you’re right, a lot of the things you do when you’re an expert at something, you don’t realize you’re doing it anymore. And I, I, I know that, you know, You know, trying to teach someone a song on, uh, on the guitar or whatever it is, and you’re just like, oh, you just do this. [00:10:00] And they’re like, what, what, what, what did you do there?
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. So this is what I did. Yeah. And so you really get to break it right down. Right. But then the other big thing that you mentioned is about how to really specialize in something. And I, I think that, uh, you know, obviously, uh, when, when someone is looking for someone to get something done, They’re not gonna believe that you’re perfect at everything.
I, I mean, even if you are, they, they’re probably not gonna believe that you are perfect at everything. Yeah. So, you know, when they’re looking for something specific, they’re gonna say, I need a specialist in X. Right? Yeah. And so I think that a lot of people are afraid to niche down in whatever business they do because they think, well, I’m gonna be turning away business, but that’s not necessarily true.
Cause number one, You can get really good at something. And especially nowadays with the internet, the, the, the playing field is huge. It’s not like there’s one person in your city that’s looking for something. It’s the whole world that could be looking for something, right? Yeah. Uh, but, but also [00:11:00] the, the better you get at it, the more specialized you get at, the more you can charge.
So That’s true. Yeah. You know, it all evens out in the end,
Dr. Wren McCallister: right. Yeah, no, it absolutely doesn’t. And, and I think you’re right, especially the analogy of the business, you know, people, they, they, you know, they, they talk about the riches and the niches, right? And getting narrow, and you think, oh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna turn away X number of people.
I, years ago, I, I heard a, a guy say, it was interesting he said, Don’t worry that you don’t have hundreds of people. Just be excited. You’ve got 10 people you’re helping and, and kind of growing that nidus, and it’s those 10 people that you’re helping, that you’re making an impact on. And as you, as you kind of stay narrow on focus, you’ll get known for that area.
And then you’ll have credibility if you’re, if you’re trying to. Be every, all things to everybody. You’re, you’re kind of a, a ma, a j what’s like a jack of all trades and a master of none. Right? Uh, and people sense that. And you can, you can tell when you interact with someone, it’s like people, and people will see like, I know nothing about heart disease, you know, high cholesterol.
I mean, I, you know, I could, but if, if they’re talking a primary care doctor, them, they might [00:12:00] brush off, oh, this, this handy. Oh yeah, you know, whatever. Do this, do that. Take it, go see therapy. But they’re not really getting help. And yet, So when they come to see me, it’s, it’s laser focused, it’s dialed in, and that really benefits them cuz the rest is really a waste of time.
And that’s something I see a lot of is people spend two or three months sort of monkeying around. It’s like, I’m really sorry, but this is what you need to do. This is the right correct diagnosis, you know. And it’s the same thing as you. And you know, in business as you’re narrowed down, if, if your focus is a certain kind of, you know, selling paper cook ads or something, it’s like, you know, you know, as I was getting on Facebook earlier, I was like banned, uh, you know, I had some guy from Croatia, you know, steal my account and all this kind of crazy stuff, trying to sell cats and stuff.
And, but, um, But trying to figure it out on your own, you, it can be a mess. And you, when you start talking to people, you can tell when someone doesn’t really know and they’re just kind of, oh yeah, I kind of do all this stuff. And then I finally found a guy who was like, no, dude, this is what you do. A, B, C, D.
It’s like, boom, can I pay you? And he is like, no, [00:13:00] it’s okay. You don’t have to pay me. We’re just chatting for 45 minutes. It’s totally cool. I’m like, that’s awesome. You know, cuz this guy just nailed exactly it. So now when I need something, I’ll go back to this guy, cuz I know in that specific area he’s got it nailed down.
Tim Melanson: So, yeah. Yeah. And especially in today’s world of marketing, like a lot of people are, you know, the internet is huge and. When you’re trying to build your site, when you’re trying to build your, your, your, your platform, you know, you’ve got bots that are going around like Google that’s looking for content.
And the more specialized you are, the more you’re gonna be showing up in people’s searches. So, you know, not only does it make sense from a, you know, from everything we just talked about, but even from a technology perspective and a marketing perspective, the more niched in you are on whatever it is that you’re an expert at, the better it’s gonna be for your overall marketing strategy when it comes to online marketing.
Dr. Wren McCallister: Yeah, no, that’s actually an excellent point because we, we go through this, we had a, we’re building a, a therapy website for our practice, for our clinics, and there was a bunch of, they, they sent [00:14:00] 74 page PDF to look at, and I’m like, oh God, I can’t look at this. You know, I’ll look at it on Sunday. It’s like gonna make me dizzy.
And then when I finally looked at it, I realized there was really only three pages and the rest was every single condition had four pages. And it’s like, Hey, you could probably cut this down a little bit. And they’re like, no, no, actually you want this stuff buried under an accordion bar for SEO stuff.
And what it gets at is, is, is, it’s kind of interesting that YouTube does a lot of this, like with the engagement, you providing superficial information isn’t really helpful. It’s the in-depth stuff that drives people to read and consume and, and so that’s what you get at when you’re an expert. You, you have the ability to talk about this stuff, not repetitively, but really in depth.
And that’s what engages people and therefore, The algorithms and the bots are trying to pick up on that so that that’s rewarded in that context.
Tim Melanson: Nice. Just wanna make sure that people understood that, uh, gold tip you just said buried under an accordion bar. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant stuff. I mean, you’ve gotta get that content on there, but it is gonna be way too much for people to, uh, to, uh, [00:15:00] process, you know, if it’s all just right on your website.
Right? So put it somewhere cuz it needs to be there for seo, but, Not so that the user’s gonna get overwhelmed with information. So good job on that one. Cool. Um, now let’s talk a little bit about the, the jam room. So you know, what makes this, uh, you know, a successful home office for you?
Dr. Wren McCallister: Well, you know, it’s interesting because it’s, I I ever since, you know, even college playing sports and college, a very fluid lifestyle.
So I, and with, I got three kids and I just, I’ve sort of taught myself to just adapt and just wherever I’m at, I’ve gotta learn to plant and just focus and do what I’m doing because there’s no perfect spot. Right? So, but sometimes I’m comfortable downstairs in the front. My wife’s like, Hey man, can you get upstairs?
Like, you know, it’s like you’re working in, in the front room. That’s not cool, you know? So, I mean, she works from home as well, so you know, she, so there’s an environment, there’s an intellectual environment. Something that stimulates you, that gets you in the right, you know, mood to think, so you gotta think about that kind of stuff.
You can’t have distractions. And then there’s a mechanical environment and that’s really, you know, from a hand surgeon’s perspective, [00:16:00] that’s one of the big things I, that I see as, you know, with covid hitting, everyone went home, you know, they, they were at work, they had the desks set up. For the most part, things were in tune now they’re home, you’re sitting in your bed, you’re lying back with your laptop, you’re at your, you know, your kitchen table, things like that.
And so designing an environment that works for you mechanically as well, uh, is really important. And, and one of the things our body is not designed to do is to sit for long periods of time in, in a single spot, which is what we end up doing at a desk and things like that. So the body’s designed for movement.
The flip side of that is we’re not designed for constant movement. So there’s a, there’s a concept in, in the Musculo scale system called re Rest and recovery. And so it’s what we do at a desk or with a computer is no different than a professional soccer player. You know, a baseball player, you can’t play three soccer games in a week.
90 minutes, you’re gonna, you’re gonna tear a hamstring, you know, strand attendant. And it’s because there’s, there’s not enough time for recovery of the musculoskeletal system, not enough time for rest. And so if you [00:17:00] overexert, you’ll end up with these issues where basically the tissue breaks down. The body has a tremendous capacity to heal itself, and it will do it if you let it, if you give it proper sleep, if you give it proper rest, proper nutrition, it’ll pretty much take care of most things itself.
And so when people get into work environments where they sit for a long time at a keyboard with awkward positions and things, that’s where you start to get pains and tendonitis and things like that. So, Designing the, uh, uh, mechanical environment to benefit you is really important. Uh, so you’re not in awkward positions and giving yourself trouble, if that makes sense.
Tim Melanson: It does make sense for sure. And, and you’re right. I mean, it’s, when you’re working from home, like there’s, it’s uh, it’s very, uh, challenging to set up the boundaries of when you’re working, when you’re not working, right? Yeah. When you’re working in an office, I mean, it’s obvious. You, you leave the office, you go home.
Um, but, but when you’re working at home, and especially when you love what you do, like most of us, you know, entrepreneurs do, I mean, it’s like, oh, you know, it’s, it’s nine o’clock. You know what, I got an [00:18:00] idea. You know, all of a sudden you’re working and then it’s midnight and then it’s two. So, you know, having those, those uh, routines, like do you have sort of routines already set up where you are working, not working, all that stuff?
Dr. Wren McCallister: pretty, pretty much, uh, you know, uh, Monday through Thursday, I’m, I’m really at my practice, so we, we start early. I’m a managing partner of our group, so I have a few more administrative responsibilities, but Monday through Thursday is really focused on surgery, and then the weekends are when I work on hand Guy md, and, and so Fridays tend to be the day when I, when I do most of these things, uh, that are related to that.
Though though, you’re absolutely right. You know, it’s hard to shut it off, so, You know, if I have a half surgery day, I’ll do something in the afternoon or, or between cases, I kind of have a list of things I wanna work on. And, and, and again, that gets to, you know, a little bit of the, I guess the surgeon personality.
You kinda like to hit something and finish it. So that’s something I’ve had to learn is to be able to take things in, in chunks and pieces and, and say, okay, I’m gonna focus on this now. You know, I’ve got 15 minutes while they do a block. We’ll, and then [00:19:00] I’ll come back to it tomorrow or, and so that’s a learning process in and of itself to try to, to try to be more efficient.
Um, and, and then there’s, you know, there’s always a negotiation with the family. Uh, year, years ago I’d done an b a, it’s like, okay, dad needs like two hours Saturday morning, then we’ll go do stuff. Uh, and it’s all, you’re right. It’s, it’s all, you love what you’re doing. It’s always hard to find that, find that balance.
Um, but that’s, but that’s probably the routine is, is kind of Monday through Thursday. Operating in clinic and then, and then Friday, Saturday, Sunday, uh, as I call it, do the fun stuff. Mm-hmm. And do negotiating. Yeah. Yeah. And a little negotiating. That’s right. Yeah. Right on.
Tim Melanson: Hey, rockstar. I hope you’re enjoying this episode of the Work at Home Rockstar podcast.
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Now, when you’re setting your website, you have to be very mindful that. The visitor doesn’t know what to do, and so you have to provide them with a roadmap that leads them down a path to wherever you want them to go. On my website, I want them to be on a free consultation, so that’s why when you go to creative crew agency.com, you’ll see information about.
Scheduling a free consultation. Now for you though, I’m gonna provide you with an extra link so that you can get your free website audit. Go to creative crew agency.com/free website audit and schedule an audit with me and I’ll go through your website live and determine what we can do to improve your conversions and make sure that you’re getting the business from your website.
Go to crave crew agency.com and we’ll see you there. [00:21:00] So what about, um, you know, what about learning from others? Like do you, are, are you a person that does a lot of, uh, additional learning to keep yourself on top of both business and your
Dr. Wren McCallister: practice abs? Yeah, absolutely. I, I’d mentioned, I, I’d, uh, done an MBA years ago, uh, now, years ago now, but it took about five years to complete it.
And it’s something that, part of it was for my kids were in school, they see dad studying. Um, they were, my youngest was born when I was a fellow, so they never really saw any of that. And so, um, so absolutely. You know, they, you know, continuing to educate that. And then, uh, all the time I’m always learning, you know, I, I spend probably more than I would like on, on courses and things, and you don’t always get to all of ’em, but, but um, as I’ve gone through it, I’ve found that it’s interesting.
So back to this expert concept, I. As people will say stuff, and, and, and my thing is to kind of get to the root, right? Like, it’s like if I, if I hear it from three different people, it’s like, what are they saying in common? Where does that come from? Because the reality is very little in life is new, right?
There’s very little that’s actually new. Most of it’s [00:22:00] recycled or, you know, kind of, you know, building on the shoulders of giants that came before you, so to speak. So that I like to kind of get down if I can, closer to the root level because to me, uh, you have to, you can’t just, it’s hard to just, Take something in and apply it without understanding it.
And so understanding it, I think is the key. And it, it lengthens the curve a little bit, right? It, you can’t get everything in, in like 30 seconds and sound bites and things, so you have to spend time investing, reading, germinating, like a lot of stuff. I like to read at night before I go to bed. I do believe your subconscious works.
You know, you kind of, you kind of mull stuff over while you’re sleeping. You’re not even aware of it. And, uh, and it’s important. And you, you can’t, you know, a lifelong learner. It’s not a, a label or it’s not a, um, it’s not something, it, it’s not a, uh, a thing you say you do. It’s just kind of who you are, if that makes sense.
And to be in business and surgery, that’s what you have to do. Yeah,
Tim Melanson: I agree. I mean, uh, because things change. Things change, yeah. And things are changing faster and faster now. I mean, for, [00:23:00] you know, back 20, 30 years ago, things could stay the same for a little while. Yes. But now, I mean, geez, uh, you know, even just the way that we market things, the way that we, you know, handle each other.
Uh, the world changes so fast. You, you do have to keep on top of things. So what, what, how do you decide what you’re gonna be learning? Like, uh, do you have sort of, uh, you know, a, a year planned of this is what I wanna learn, or is sort of day by day, you know, by feel. Uh,
Dr. Wren McCallister: Well, it’s a little bit, uh, I guess maybe task oriented in other, in other words, these are the things that I wanna do.
So what do I need to learn to do that? So the, the, um, for example, I, I wanted to get a quiz up and running, for example. Cause I thought that would be a great way to, one of the challenges, I’m not, I’m not with handgun, I’m not practicing medicine. That’s a key distinction. But it’s the information. And so it’s how can I kind of interact with people and it’s like, I need to figure out this.
So I started figuring out how can I, you know, maybe from someone in Croatia can code it or whatever. And then I found these, these quiz funnels, which work. So then I, you know, went through learning that. So the process of, [00:24:00] of understanding that there’s some other traffic stuff, some YouTube stuff, and it, it just, it comes sequentially because I end up working, you know, a week, you know, kind of Friday through Sunday, and then I can kind of get back after it.
A lot of, um, courses in there, a lot of, uh, talks or things that happen. I noticed they’re like, you know, Monday through Thursday, one, two o’clock, it’s like, man, I’m in clinic. I don’t, I can’t, you know, it’d be great to see that, but I, but I can’t do it. So it’s, it’s really, I guess it’s task, uh, task oriented and, and sequential.
There’s, there is a larger picture where I’m trying to go, uh, But then each step along the way, uh, pick it up. And then, and then the other part of that is, I think also you have to, you don’t have to do everything, but you have to understand it in order to manage it. And, and I do think you get in trouble when you just turn something over blindly to someone and you don’t have any concept of what’s happening.
That’s where you get ripped off. You know, that’s where you get screwed. We, it’s fine. The websites, we had a. Company built us a website and, um, and it was embarrassingly expensive for our practice. And, uh, and [00:25:00] I’m like, and then as I started learning more, I’m like, man, we just got hosed. Like, like, you know, you, you know, the, the down.
It’s like you guys spent this, how much? It’s like, man, that’s, you did not need to spend that much. And for the functionality, this is probably, you know, because nobody knew. It’s like, Hey, we should just have this done. Let’s go find this. And you know, a shiny company comes in, they give you a pitch and that looks good.
Okay, we’ll do it. And so, um, without any knowledge, you can’t manage it. So that’s important too. You don’t have to do everything, but you have to understand it.
Tim Melanson: Well, I agree. Uh, the, it’s funny I keep, I’m, I’m having this conversation more and more as time goes on, about how the whole web design, web development industry is, it’s the wild, wild west out there right now.
Like, it’s just, you got companies out there charging like. Insane amounts of money and, and I, I, the, the one thing that I found was very, very, Interesting. I think really is that the more off brand and, and off like the site is [00:26:00] the more someone paid for it. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It’s messed up. Spoke. Yeah. Spoke.
Yeah. It, it, and, and I, I just, it, it was always fascinating me is I, I’d get somebody that had come to me and, you know, Hey, I, you know, I got this site, you know, it’s not doing what I needed to do. I just need this and this done. You know, can you do it? And then I would jump in there and go, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay. Let me, let me, let me get a login and go look at it. And it turns out it’s just built in a way that you can’t do anything to it. Like, it’s like, yeah, it’s all custom programmed. I’m like, dude, it would take me months to learn what this guy did in order to change it. Yeah. And, and I mean, I could charge you less to rebuild the site.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, from scratch and like rebuilding the entire site that they paid tens of thousands of dollars for, and I can charge ’em a couple thousand bucks for it. Yeah. But it’s just insane. How did they, how did they come up with that number? You
Dr. Wren McCallister: know, they just pull it outta their head. And then, and then when you, when you do this custom coding, see this is what, so, so there’s two levels.
One is our, our larger organization. Was, it was like into the six figures, [00:27:00] which is I think, insane. We were five figures, which is still insane. But they came to us and I said, Hey, I need this to be done. Oh, well the code can’t do this. I’m like, dude, these things are templates. Like, like it is not that hard to, you know, and I’m not a coder, but so a little bit don’t know, but I’m like, it’s not that hard.
It’s plug and play. Like this is all object oriented programming. It goes back to, you know, what happened in the late nineties where, So this is not, you know, but when they custom code Yep. It becomes an abyss. Yep. And then all of a sudden you’re beholden to the magic person at the top of the hill who custom codes.
Yep. And it’s almost like it’s an artificial barrier because you can do most of this stuff off a template. There is probably some coding, there’s some pieces, but it’s not that hard I don’t think, to build that on the back end without making this behemoth. Yeah. Yep, yep. We had the same thing we, yeah, we had a new group come in, they looked at the old website and they just laughed.
And they said it’ll be, you know, it, it’ll be cheaper. And they basically rebuilt it with way better functionality, speed, all that kind of stuff. Uh, and it all comes off templates basically, for the most part.
Tim Melanson: [00:28:00] Yep. It’s, uh, it’s insane what’s going on. I, I, I don’t know. I don’t, I, I, I don’t know what to do to really.
Fix that o other than I think that there’s gotta be some real good information. I think that has to go out there to entrepreneurs on how to choose the right company. Um, because even nowadays, uh, with websites, um, people don’t have, people don’t have the, the. Attention span that they used to have to actually even go through an entire website.
Well, businesses are better off to have one landing page.
Dr. Wren McCallister: Well, that’s, then you hit, that’s the point. I was just, just gonna say that’s excellent. That’s exactly it. I mean, the website of 2005 and six doesn’t exist anymore. I mean, basically you, you need a, a landing page in essence, you need a way to interact, provide the information, to take the next step.
You can take ’em on a journey that can involve other pages. But you’re right, because if, if you confuse, you lose right confusion. It creates, if you get confused, you just, you click off. And so they have these heat maps and stuff you can do on a website [00:29:00] where you can see where people go and, and you can see when you start to put complex text, everything turns blue.
Right? Because they just, no one’s there. Nope. And so the more intuitive it is, and so when you’re designing the webpage, You know, basically you want a simple message. And this is where, you know, being an expert and also thinking and learning, and then learning from other people too. Because we don’t have to make these mistakes.
If you start learning from other people, they’ll tell you what they’re doing. Cuz the real, this is a cool thing I think about business, especially when you get in the internet, is that I’m not gonna take money from anybody who’s already making tens or hundreds of millions a year. Right? Like, I’m no threat to them.
And so, and most people are to some extent, feel pretty damn lucky in a sense that it’s like, You know, geez, I can leverage this. All of a sudden I’m making tens and, you know, or a hundred million, you know, so there’s a, there’s a, you know, geez, if I can do this, someone else can. And then they’re happy to share.
And when we see this same thing, you know, this generativity, you know, and you go Maslow’s hierarchy, right? Of, of the things you need, you need food, you need shelter. And as you get to the higher up after you’re stable, secure, then [00:30:00] you want to give back. Yep. And I think especially in business, that’s the concept of mentorship.
And so people are happy to share these things. So when someone who’s, who’s got a business that’s doing eight, nine figures says, Hey, we killed our landing, we killed our website. We’re doing landing pages. Like they’re telling you something. They’re not trying to deceive you. You’re not gonna threaten them.
They’re actually trying to help you. Uh, and this idea of making the journey simpler for, for whoever you, you serve, I think is really important. And, and it’s not easy to do in the sense that it requires thought, but, but that’s the key. And that gets to the websites well, and, and I
Tim Melanson: think that that’s the.
I’m hoping that this is something that’s gonna be valuable for someone who’s looking for, for websites. Because, because what I can see it from, you know, I, I’ve been building websites for a while so I can see how you can be like, oh geez man, I make so much more money on a, you know, five, 10 page website than I do on a landing page.
So, oh, you know, what, do I really wanna sell this person a landing page so I can see how you’d be like, well, this is going to destroy my business, but. Follow me here [00:31:00] for a second. Yeah, because what I’ve noticed is that the, the work now has moved into the strategy side and to the business coaching side of, yeah.
Okay. You know, it’s, it’s more of a now a, a, a, a coaching caller, a consultation to figure out what this business needs in order to build the right landing page, because you don’t necessarily have to charge a whole lot less for that final product. It’s just instead of being in five pages of. Stuff that no one’s ever gonna click on.
It’s one really targeted page of what the actual client is looking for. That’s totally gonna, you know, generate leads. You know, there, there’s a whole bunch of backend stuff that you can be doing Yeah. That you could be charging for. So the, the, you’re not losing a ton of money because it’s just, you are, if your whole model is based on how many pages you build.
Dr. Wren McCallister: yeah. No, you’re absolutely right. Because the reality is if you build a whole bunch of pages, it’s not gonna convert. So the. Client’s not gonna be happy anyways. If you build one page that [00:32:00] converts, they’re gonna love you. And, and you’re absolutely right because that’s the hard thing for people, you know, learning how to write copy, right?
You, I mean, it’s, it’s, all this stuff is a skill, right? You can learn how to do it. Your structures, there’s resources again, that gets to learning and mentorship, and you can find the resources. But if, you know, if you understand the basics and can help someone put together a page. And say, Hey, look, man, that’s way too cluttered.
I, I, you know, you know everything about this, but let me, let me help you distill it. Let me be the, let me be the novice who doesn’t know and say, this confuses me. This doesn’t, this, you know, and, and help them test, even test in the market test, you know, keywords and things like that. Yep. Like if you can help them narrow that down, then you get them a page that converts.
That’s worth more than seven or eight pages, honestly, because it, it, it gets ’em going and then they’ll come back to you for repeat, you know, Hey, I’ve got another idea for an offer. Let’s build another pa. You know, things like that. Yep. Absolutely. I think you’re a hundred percent right. Totally. There’s
Tim Melanson: definitely a business still there.
There was a, a funny, a funny thing that said, uh, said, uh, somebody wrote a letter, Hey, if I had more time, I would’ve written you a shorter letter.
Dr. Wren McCallister: [00:33:00] Yeah, yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Tim Melanson: And, and that’s, I think that’s something that also is another barrier for people that, uh, it’s just a, a, a difference between the value that you’re providing.
You know, some people think that, oh, you know, th this page is only, you know, it’s, it’s just one page. How’d you spend so much money? Well, it took a long time and a lot of effort and a lot of thought to get to the one page. Yeah. As opposed to just dumping six pages of work. Right.
Dr. Wren McCallister: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah.
It’s amazing when you, you know, you read a sales letter or something and you realize some of these ones that are just massively done. It’s like literally every single word is engineered and every single word is written with intent. And it’s like, well, how can someone do that? And it’s like, well, it’s, it’s a structure, it’s a schematic.
And, and it really is. There’s thought because what emotion does this word evoke? You know, what does this one, you know, you know, is this one redundant? And things like that. So, yeah, you’re right. It’s like it does it. That’s a great saying. I can’t remember. Um, I think it was. I dunno if it goes back to, yeah, it was a long time ago.
Napoleon sometime where if I had more time I’d have written you a shorter letter. [00:34:00] Yep. It’s
Tim Melanson: funny. So it’s time for your guest solo. So tell me what’s exciting in your business right now.
Dr. Wren McCallister: Well, I think the, the, the coolest thing that, that I’ve found is that, uh, my wife is a health coach and, and she’s kind of taught me a lot of this stuff going along and I realized that.
So I call it kind of healthy hands, but this idea that foundational health, uh, how you sleep, think, eat and move has more of an impact on your hands and your health in general than really anything I can do in an operating room because I end up treating the end result of diabetes. You know, thyroid conditions, things like dad, obesity, all these things contribute cause problems, and then you get mechanical issues with your hands.
And then I just kind of come in and fix the problem. But it’s like, if, if you can get to that ahead of time, you’ll never end up in my, in my office or in my operating room. So for me, that’s the most exciting thing. And so I, I kind of call it Healthy hands because there’s a, a foundational health component in how it impacts your hands.
So that’s something I’m excited to kind of build on going forward. Uh, and Ki and Through Hand Guy MD and, and work [00:35:00] with my wife as well, help people, uh, to get these concepts of foundational health, uh, really dialed in because it’s, it’s, it’s. It’s another example though, where it’s overwhelming, right? Like you can read about eating, what do I eat?
Do I do this, do I do that? It’s not that complicated. I mean, there’s really, everybody’s an individual, so you can’t just cookie cutter, you know, diets on top of people. And at the same time, there’s just some fundamental principles. Our body, again, our body is designed to kind of solve itself for the most part.
So if you give it the right input, it’ll give you the right output. And, and sleep is one of the biggest ones. Movement is really important as well. So pretty simple things, but not always things people wanna do. Yeah.
Tim Melanson: Well and that’s the thing people like to quick fix, right? So Yeah. Yeah. Is there a pill I can take for that?
You know? Yeah, exactly. But I think things are kind of coming around. I mean, I do, I do see things, uh, you know, over the last few years especially where people are starting to kind of like. Get back to, cuz you know, back in the day, you know, it was all about prevention and about Yep. Healthy, you know, [00:36:00] um, Lifestyles.
And then it just kind of got to the point where people were like, well, you know, either that or I can just stay up all night and I can just totally abuse my body and just take pills and, and, and everything will be fine. Yeah. And we’re now coming back around. Right.
Dr. Wren McCallister: Yeah. And we’re all guilty of it, man. We, years ago I built a surgery center and I used to come home at night and my wife would fall asleep at 10 and I’d be on the computer till one in the morning, you know, with the lord, you know, all the architects and stuff.
And, and I, I found this amazing thing, like, if, if you don’t want to go to sleep, stare at a computer screen. I, it’s really weird, you know, I read a little bit, I got really tired, open the laptop, and man, I was up till one 30. I felt, you know, felt great. Yep. And then it’s, you learn that that’s because it’s messing with your brain.
But, um, But we’re all guilty of it. And, and then when you’re younger, you can get by, you know, you can get by in three, four hours of sleep, get up, do your thing. You maybe you’re a little grumpy, a little coffee, you’re fine. But the reality is you’re really cheating yourself in the long run. And, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting.
I, I tell people with diabetes, it’s an interesting disease because, uh, you’re never [00:37:00] gonna feel it. Like you’re not, you’re not gonna feel the effects of it. You won’t really, unless your sugar’s super high and you get sick, but you, you’re not gonna feel it, you’re not gonna know anything different. But over a long period of time, it will literally kill you.
Uh, and that’s the same thing, you know, if, if you don’t sleep right, uh, if you don’t get adequate sleep, if you don’t exercise, you’re not gonna feel those things day in and day out. But over a long time, it will definitely shorten your lifespan. Uh, and so that’s where I feel like if we can just get people to, to, to, to, to explore these principles and just, and, and improve what they’re doing.
Again, you know, back to this, you know, there’s no perfect time. There’s only now concept, right? Mm-hmm. Like. You don’t have to be perfect in everything, but even if people made a 10% improvement in their sleep, or 20%, uh, it would, it would make a huge impact on their quality of life. So, yeah. Even 1%. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Everything you’re doing. We used, we used to have this analogy as younger, you’re pushing this giant boulder up a mountain, right? And as long as you’re pushing the boulder, you’re doing okay. Uh, you know, and if you keep going forward, you’ve got [00:38:00] momentum and you’re gonna be fine. You’re never gonna get to the top of the mountain, but as long as you keep pushing it, you’re gonna do fine.
Uh, and that’s kind of the concept here. Love it. So how do we find out more? So, I, so I have a, so hand guy MD is the website. And, and again, as it as I said, you know, it, it’s not perfect now, so the, the main thing I’m focused on is numbness and tingling. But, but for your folks, I’d love to give them, uh, I have a guide to ergonomics.
As well as a video that has the top ergonomic recommendations. And so I’m happy to give them that for free. If they’ll just shoot me an email at dr ren gui md.com. I’m happy to send that to ’em. And it’s a, it’s a PDF that goes through the principles. So we talked about rest and recovery and so they can learn.
What they need to do to stay, to stay safe and how they can make adjustments in their own home. Because I know a lot of people working from home, the first thing that’s gonna happen is you’re gonna get in these awkward positions and it gets back to your mechanical environment. Um, the, the sort of the psychological environment that’s, that’s a little bit more on you to figure out how to balance that with family and things.
But the mechanical environment that can really help you with. [00:39:00] So I think both these resources will be terrific. So again, happy to give it to any of your listeners. Just email me at dr ren gui md.com and just mention you saw this podcast. I’m happy to send it to him. Awesome.
Tim Melanson: Well, thank you so much. Hey, can I have one too?
Dr. Wren McCallister: Yeah, abs. Yeah, yeah, ab, yeah, I’ll send it to you. We’re done. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,
Tim Melanson: no worries. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for Rock Out with me today, Dr. Ren. This is awesome.
Dr. Wren McCallister: Appreciate it, Tim. Thanks. Have a great
Tim Melanson: day, and to the listeners, make sure we subscribe right and comment and we’ll see you next time with the Work at Home Rockstar.
Dr. Wren McCallister: Thanks for listening To learn how you can become a work at home rockstar or become a better one, head on over to firstname.lastname@example.org today.